fazool said:I agree with all of this. I wnt it to instill genuine terror if we die. A game with no (REAL) consequences is meaningless. Our guild leader died 12 times trying to rescue corpses at the Plane of Fear zone in. I still remember that. It still scares me and I want to do it again!
HERO!
bigdogchris said:How about having graveyards spread around the world. Instead of rotting the corpse just appears at the local graveyard. You could also do your summoning there possibly.
Lol... yea, not so much.
A system like this will likely work well.
- Once dead, you have three hours to obtain a rez for experience reimbursement.
- Once three hours has passed if in a dungeon environment and if the corpse cannot be rezzed for experience anymore, the body will be ported to and near the zone-in but will only be visible to the corpse owner. This prevents corpse clutter.
- If in an outdoor environment, corpses will remain where they lay.
While he mechanics and the gameplay is a huge defining point for this game, one area will create a lot of strife and that's death. Already people will have to adjust again to exp loss, but if having no way to obtain their body after hours or even a day, you're basically putting a player in a position where they can't realistically play the game. This is the only area I see as the community being fine with alleviating slightly.
Losing a corpse and unable to retrieve it was a huge issue in Everquest for people, but at the time and before DAoC, there really weren't other realistic options to turn to as an altnerative. AO and others all had similar systems.
>If you are going to add the PoK graveyard summoner mechanic so rogues and necros are out of business, add the following penalties - (1) rezz no longer restores exp for that corpse, (2) summoning across all those zones results in 1-2 hour rezz sickness where all stats are lowered to 25% of base (and it incemrents up during the timer period), and gear has no effect on stats until rezz sickness wears off, and (3) you have to pay summoner NPC a crapton of coin for the summon.<
1. I was discussing Pantheon not Everquest. We know that Pantheon will follow the general philosophy that made EQ great but we do *not* know that that VR will slavishly copy the little details like what a particular class can do. So we don't exactly know at this point whether a corpse retrieval mechanic would hurt any class. Any opinions I give are very much subject to change as the details are developed, and if a particular ability is necessary for a class to be wanted in groups I heartily agree that it should not be undercut.
2. I was discussing a fallback mechanism for when you just cannot reasonably get your corpse, not a replacement for corpse retrieval that would obviate the need for corpse runs. That is the topic of this thread. A system that would let you skip a corpse run does need to have significant penalties such as higher experience loss, longer rez sickness, greater rez penalties or the like.
3. So just making a number up - would a way to get your corpse back without a corpse run with double the experience loss and an hour's extra rez sickness (to make up for time you might have needed to spend on the corpse run) make sense for people to use in emergencies? I do not like the thought of coin being a significant factor - rich level caps need to fear death as well as poor characters and a cost that would be very punitive to most of us would mean nothing to them.
Fair disclosure - I know the theory of corpse runs well enough but have never played EQ in its corpse run glory so my opinions are lacking in practical experience.
dorotea said:2. I was discussing a fallback mechanism for when you just cannot reasonably get your corpse, not a replacement for corpse retrieval that would obviate the need for corpse runs. That is the topic of this thread. A system that would let you skip a corpse run does need to have significant penalties such as higher experience loss, longer rez sickness, greater rez penalties or the like.
...
Fair disclosure - I know the theory of corpse runs well enough but have never played EQ in its corpse run glory so my opinions are lacking in practical experience.
The "fallback" mechanism totally removes the harshest part of the death penalty, which negates a huge part of the fear/nerves/excitement factor of going deeper into that dungeon, farther into that super hard zone, etc. I had already played original trilogy EQ1 for close to 3 years when the Plane of Knowledge wrecked the death penalty completely. Virtually all the thrill of EQ1 flew right out the window. No more travel times, no more corpse fetching, nothing. Bind in PoK, summon corpses to PoK, rezz in PoK, use PoK books for teleports and instant travel anywhere in the world.
Here's a penalty that could leave the fear in the game - the process of NPC summoning to the graveyard means you lose an entire level and one random piece of equipped gear is destroyed. Sucks, but for all these MMO emergencies where for whatever reason, people can play for the next 4 hours and then not at all for at least 7.01 days BECAUSE EMERGENCY!!! well, now there is a fallback that is harsh, but not as harsh as losing all your gear.
Venjenz said:dorotea said:A summoning system (corpse retrieval NPC or item by whatever name) that costs adds additional loss of experience to the original loss from dying seems fair. Experience can be regained wither you delevel or not. More than occasionally there simply may be no other way to get a corpse.
The original trilogy system is already best - necro can summon with the tiny jade coffin, or someone can drag corpse to spot. Corpse decays after 7 days, online or off, rezz timer is 3 hours online, gear is on corpse until it gets looted by player or decays at 7 days.
If you are going to add the PoK graveyard summoner mechanic so rogues and necros are out of business, add the following penalties - (1) rezz no longer restores exp for that corpse, (2) summoning across all those zones results in 1-2 hour rezz sickness where all stats are lowered to 25% of base (and it incemrents up during the timer period), and gear has no effect on stats until rezz sickness wears off, and (3) you have to pay summoner NPC a crapton of coin for the summon. But really, easiest to simply leave this out and someone in the zone you died in drags/summons that corpse to zone, you loot/rezz corpse there, or you're screwed.
And yeah, more than occasionally, corpse retrieval will suck really really bad...and it should. That's what made certain dungeons/raids so great...knowing just how bad it would suck if you died where you were at. How scary was it the first time you dropped down to the lower level of Old Seb? Or heck, even before that...how scary was going inside te house in either Unrest or Mistmoore? Yea, certain places sucked for corpse retrieval...and that's what made those places great. Why take that away?
I'm typically all for old-world harsh mechanics, but I think a simple compromise could be made. If corpse rot exists in Pantheon, instead of the alternative to avoid corpse decay of pay 1,000,000 platinum, your first-born child, and 3 hours of your play-time due to res-sickness to the corpse summoner - simply increase the time before corpse rot. If corpse-rot was in, I'd be fine with increasing it to 30 days RL (timer runs logged in or not). That way it would cover the majority of /rage quits, my kid logged me in and I didn't realize!, or any/all other unforseen real life obligations.
I really don't see a negative to increasing the timeline, especially if /hidecorpse or /hidecorpse is in, the fear would still exist, and corpse recovery would still suck; however, this way it would allow the player plenty of time to rely on others to help retrieve their corpse without having a complete sense of dread, but still would want to avoid the penalty. And, if the death was due to a bug, ample time for GM assistance in recovery.
>Here's a penalty that could leave the fear in the game - the process of NPC summoning to the graveyard means you lose an entire level and one random piece of equipped gear is destroyed. Sucks, but for all these MMO emergencies where for whatever reason, people can play for the next 4 hours and then not at all for at least 7.01 days BECAUSE EMERGENCY!!! well, now there is a fallback that is harsh, but not as harsh as losing all your gear.<
Good we have complete agreement on the basic points. There needs to be a backup system for emergencies and the backup system has to be so painful that it won't be used if there is any reasonable alternative.
I'm not sure that debating the details is actually productive at this point without knowing how the basic corpse retrieval system works.
You may feel strongly that gear loss is critical and deleveling is critical to keep the excitement in the game. I mostly agree if not entirely (I would argue that certain really *special* gear shouldn't be at risk with every death). But your opinion and mine alike are of little importance - VR's opinion is of the utmost importance. Once the basic death mechanic is set we know the starting point for a backup system with one thing certain - it needs to be harsher. Maybe the backup can delevel you even if a normal corpse retrieval never will. Maybe the "easy" way risks permanent loss of gear when the basic system does not.
They've already confirmed no permanent gear loss via death penalty / corpse loss. (As Zorkon said on the first page)
Losing XP might be harsh enough. Depends on the loss amount, typical rate of gain and the methods required.
Heck, there might never be more than a 50% rez available to priests. There are many knobs to tune an XP loss death penalty to make it overly punitive, by itself.
vjek said:They've already confirmed no permanent gear loss via death penalty / corpse loss. (As Zorkon said on the first page)
Losing XP might be harsh enough. Depends on the loss amount, typical rate of gain and the methods required.
Heck, there might never be more than a 50% rez available to priests. There are many knobs to tune an XP loss death penalty to make it overly punitive, by itself.
Vjek,
You (and Zorkon) are correct. However, I was just brainstorming to state "if" it were in, what compromises could be made. I actually agree with Venjenz in that I do believe corpse rot should exist, but here's the FAQ for reference stating the current status/thoughts of the death penalty confirming that currently corpse rot won't be in:
We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items.
I suspect that by now all of us interested in the topic know what VR's *current* thinking is. But I hope that they will be keeping an eye on testing and community opinions and reconsider if they decide their current opinion isn't the best way to go.
Thus people discuss loss of items even knowing that isn't the current plan. People discuss bazaar versus auction house knowing that the current thinking is regional auction houses.
If VR has ever said "Do not waste forum space discussing any issue where we have already said what we think the answer will be" I missed it. If they have said that I certainly will do as they request - I am lawful good on forums.
Zorkon said:Lol... yea, not so much.
So just to clarify, after a week where would you prefer your corpse to go?
Zorkon said:You won't need to go back and get your corpse. Brad has confirmed NO gear loss, so unless they plan on corpses strewn all over the place, all the time you will be able to get it all back soon.
No gear loss by corpse rotting, thus my idea of sending them to a graveyard instead. You are still dropping your gear when you die.
bigdogchris said:Zorkon said:Lol... yea, not so much.
So just to clarify, after a week where would you prefer your corpse to go?
Zorkon said:You won't need to go back and get your corpse. Brad has confirmed NO gear loss, so unless they plan on corpses strewn all over the place, all the time you will be able to get it all back soon.
No gear loss by corpse rotting, thus my idea of sending them to a graveyard instead. You are still dropping your gear when you die.
My point in that post wasn't about corpse rot. It was about corpse recovery. An epic event where the guild master recovered the corpses with extreme sacrifice (Hero) vs. Easy mode Summon to a graveyard (no hero)
No gear loss, no corpse rot takes that from us.
Summon to a graveyard with no corpse rot has its up sides... I could use the bag space.
We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items.
I have a problem with the bolded/underlined sentence. Does anyone recall this being an actual problem in games like Everquest? If memory serves, harsh penalty or not, the truly rewarding areas were still very much visited. It was those that weren't rewarding, or had a low ZEM, that weren't visited - and those are issues independent of death penalties.
Just a minor gripe.
Tralyan said:Death
- 7.0 Will there be a ‘death penalty’?
We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items.
I have a problem with the bolded/underlined sentence. Does anyone recall this being an actual problem in games like Everquest? If memory serves, harsh penalty or not, the truly rewarding areas were still very much visited. It was those that weren't rewarding, or had a low ZEM, that weren't visited - and those are issues independent of death penalties.
Just a minor gripe.
In it's day Plane of Fear was the worst... and no, very few players that i knew of kept away for being too scared.
Temijin1 said:In EQ it was corpse runs that could be a major problem; especially, if you were a gear dependent class.
It was only a problem if you were lazy and decided not to take advantage of all the tools available to everyone. You could have a 2nd set of gear. There were potions for run speed, levitate, underwater breathing, invisibility, invisibilty to undead all of which helped with travel. Then there was the greatest tool in everyone's arsenal: Everyone else. Who didn't do a quick /who before dying so you could get a list of people in the zone who might help? Or who didn't to a /who all ? Or who didn't have a coffin in the bank so a necro could summon, or any number of other tools you could employ to either retrieve your corpse or get back to your corpse.
Ranarius said:What do you mean by "major problem?" Just curious if you could expand a little.
They were certainly something I tried to avoid but in the 4 years I played I never once had a corpse rot. I did have some pretty epic corpse runs though!
Yeah, even when I had an 'accident' in Solusek, fell into the lava and lived just long enough to float along and sink down to zone into the much higher level zone below, I still got my corpse back eventually.
I think it took maybe an hour of talking to various players and travelling with different groups to get back near enough so I could grab it (during which I died more times) but it was actually one of the most exciting and social experiences of the game.
The most important part was it gave me a *much* greater respect for lava and for the zone and for death in game in general.
I'm not certain the *naked* part of a corpse run is great, but as Van says, you could just keep some reserve armor if you feel you need to be powerful enough to even get near your corpse.
Even so, I'd be happy if they work out some alternative to the naked thing, BUT death HAS to be feared in some great and meaningful way, or the game just is not exciting.
Corpse runs ensure a good amount of respect for life and for your location. They inject real excitement in both combat and exploration. I'm not sure how else you would do that.
There are some tough aspects of old school games that were just tough for little reason. The corpse run is not one of those.
I logged into p99 last night for the first time in about 3 months, just planned on soloing for 45 minutes or so. Very first fight I chose I died lol. Did it ruin my 45 mintues? Not at all, it is part of the game and a consequence of the fight I chose. If I knew I'd never die it would be no fun.
Having started MMORPGs in 1999 with EQ and playing a good 15 since for varying amounts of time with varying death penalties, I am firmly in the pro corpse run camp.
As to your suggestions I can see why the thread went straight to the debate about how punishing corpse runs should be. Having an auto corpse pop at dungeon entrance or something similar really devastates the purpose of CRs.
Since we have it in writing for now that there is no perma gear loss, and that in a stream examples were given of other options (corpse summoning by a player was specifically mentioned), I don't think you need to worry. If there is no perma gear loss then it stands to reason you do Not Have to get your corpse before you log out... Do you recall which stream this was that you heard it being said that they HAD to get it before logging? Perhaps that was only in regards to an Exp res timer?
Now that does beg the question of how there can be corpse runs & no gear loss coexisting... I sure hope it's not a graveyard thing or that if it is the wait time is substantial and the Last option as many others have stated.
They can leave the corpse in that location indefinitely. If they really want to the designers can make it so the corpse stops showing up to players after X days or something and then only reappers if/when that player logs back into the game. That would prevent corpses from just sitting there for years for all to see.
Geex said: I havent played the old school mmos sadly but im tired of the mmos that i played. death has to really really hurt. imo not everything a game offers should be achievable for every player. if you are that casual that you die and wont be able to come back for 7 days or more then you just shouldnt do dangerous stuff when you know you are gone for the next weeks. that also means if people are too scared to do some dungeons then its fine. this dungeon you are too scared to run is content thats too high for your playstyle. others will make it and thats how it should be.
Punishment should fit the crime. You died and now you possibly risk losing everything your character had, potentially months worth of work? Not necessary or anywhere close to a fair punishment for dying (which can often be through no personal error), and completely misses the fact that life isn't always so easily planned.
Ranarius said:Just to be clear...they said that there will be NO corpse decay/item loss. So...no one can lose months worth of work. Unless of course you die over and over and over ... and over and over getting your first corpse :)
I've never heard them say "no decay".
I have heard "no item loss"
However the two are not mutually exclusive, you can have decay, and all your items be returned to you (no matter how emersive pantheon turns out to be, it IS still just a computer program) they could show up in your mail box, and item overflow inventory or banker type system, several possable ways of having corpse rot without having item loss.
not advocating for it either way, just sayin.