>I don't think you will ever come into a situation where someone was selfish enough to actually ninja something in a case where someone else actually needed something<
I have seen this happen more times than I can remember. Even on small servers where reputation mattered. To think that it won't happen here because Pantheon is special (and it is) and the community will be more mature than typical today (it will be) is just fooling yourself. There are always players that care more about what is happening right now than anything else. There are always players that don't think consequences will happen. There are always guilds that encourage and support members that aren't all that ...nice .... so the members don't give a rodent's hindquarters about what the community in general thinks. There are always guilds that actually enjoy a reputation of being bad.
What absolutely confounds me to this day is why anyone would object to a need/greed system for items that are bind on pickup. Someone that actually needs the item has a huge amount to gain by getting it. Someone that would just sell it to a NPC merchant has almost nothing to gain.
I understand the debate for items that are not bound. Plate gear of the Gods may sell for huge amounts and the mage contributed just as much to killing the boss as anyone who uses heavy armor. But letting someone that cannot sell it to another player and cannot give it to an alt roll equally with the tank that needs it? Senseless.
For looting rules discussion see this thread (my summary on NBG on page 6):
http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4170/looting-rules/view/page/1
I wish and hope for the old style of loot system, sure some knob steals something here and there, then you dont group with them again but primarily the majority are good. The social aspect of all working together to gather loot and share it around ends up uniting us against a common douche or by creating a name for yourself locally as being a kind or generous person giving to the needy goes a long way to create a better community for better no mtter what the outcome. Excluding the need for discussions in a group as each item of value drops creates a group dynamic where it feels like everyone is keeping at arms length of each other re loot, an occasional grats if they win and and a woohoo if you win with an automated need / greed.
Winning and losing of a player run system always sparked comradery and kinship and I just dont find that same rally behind the loser to strive for getting that item again mentality hardly exists anymore with an auto generating system.
Grimix said: Valdora and MauvaisOeil, I said what I said because I don't think you will ever come into a situation where someone was selfish enough to actually ninja something in a case where someone else actually needed something. This isn't one of the myrid of mmo with nameless players you play with from different servers, you will see people again. Your rep matters so if an individual desides to be greedy, they probably would wind up shooting themselves in their foot. How far do you think an individual can get in this game once word got around about their behavior in PUG's? On the flip coin, artificial loot rulesets remove some key community building tools. Working with friends for a valuable drop to split the funds with created some of my best memories. I just don't think it's neccessary to create a ruleset to force people to be cooperative.
I get what you're saying... but in this thread and the other loot thread people are arguing over which loot philosophies are best/correct.
I'm asking that we are given some control over loot behavior. A simple interface that allows players to enforce their loot expectations.
I don't see why being able to change loot behaviors would have changed the experiences you had. You can still work with friends for a valuable drop and they can still split the profits with the group. I dont think having tools to change loot rules would have altered those experiences.
I'm not seeing the parallels between loot rules/behavior and community building tools. Can you explain your thoughts on this more?
If the argument is that someone CAN steal loot, CAN make a name for themselves, CAN cause drama, CAN upset others - and these unknowns make the old loot system more exciting I can understand that. Those are the types of events that stand out most clearly in players minds when they think back on a game. I can agree tapping into tragedy and loss is very powerful.
If you're arguing that because players can "steal" from one another, be greedy, be shrewd, etc. but choose not to and choosing not to be "bad" builds trust and community then I can understand that.
Perhaps what some people are missing is that modern games have sheltered us from hurt feelings and bad blood between players? Maybe life is sweeter if you have bitter moments as well?
I'd love to hear a developer comment on these more nuanced types of social interactions and how creating systems where players have more agency leads to a better experience. I can get on board with allowing thieves and villains exist in the world if they feel having them ultimately creates better more memorable gameplay.
I think pain aversion something we're all familiar with. We try to maximize our feel good moments while minimizing our painful moments. I think UI enforced loot rules was an attempt to minimize the pain but maybe pain isn't bad in moderation if it makes you appreciate more positive interactions more.
Valdora said:Grimix said: Valdora and MauvaisOeil, I said what I said because I don't think you will ever come into a situation where someone was selfish enough to actually ninja something in a case where someone else actually needed something. This isn't one of the myrid of mmo with nameless players you play with from different servers, you will see people again. Your rep matters so if an individual desides to be greedy, they probably would wind up shooting themselves in their foot. How far do you think an individual can get in this game once word got around about their behavior in PUG's? On the flip coin, artificial loot rulesets remove some key community building tools. Working with friends for a valuable drop to split the funds with created some of my best memories. I just don't think it's neccessary to create a ruleset to force people to be cooperative.
I'm not seeing the parallels between loot rules/behavior and community building tools. Can you explain your thoughts on this more?
A very considerate post Valdora! I thought i'd throw in my 2 cents on this question even though it wasnt directed at me.
I think there would be a difference in behavior / mentality between using a system where a player just decides to click a need or a greed button in a window that pops up (and that result may even spam its way past most peoples screens as the next fight starts up) and the decision to within an actual group discussion to choose to verbalise their lie or deception to their group mates to aquire an item they dont actually need in while someone else who does goes without. I would imagine there is almost an "oh well too late" or "oops" kind of mentality to just clicking need where as to actualy pipe up and tell everyone that that you need it when its may well be clear to some that you have uber weapons or whatever already would take a bit more of a coniving nature to execute. And one person being involved in a couple of these scenarios would lead to people losing trust in that persons as a reputable group member when discussing loot!
If i visualise an experiment on honesty i see the clickable need button as an easy method for attempting deception rather than having to face your team mates in conversation.
I don't understand why loot has to be complicated or convoluted at all.
Group / Raid leader is in charge of loot setting.
Group / Raid leader can delegate "Master Looter" to someone else who then control loot setting.
Two loot settings:
1. Master Loot
Whoever is Master Looter will give items directly to another person in Group/Raid
2. Need/Greed/Pass
Need - Everyone who selects Need will rolls for the item.
Greed - If noone selected Need then everyone who selected Greed rolls for item.
Pass - Decline to loot the item.
Yes, sometimes people Need on everything. That's called people being greedy and the simple solution is a) You, as the group leader, give them a warning, b) If they fail to respect that warning you kick them from group and ****-list them.
For raid and boss loot it's a simple matter of changing setting to Master Looter and whoever gets the items is then determined by the Master Looter, based on outside decisions such as auction with DKPs or seniority or whatever else applies (usually raid setting anyways).
Does it really need anything else than this ?
There's another long thread on this: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4170/looting-rules
CanadinaXegony said:There's another long thread on this: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4170/looting-rules
Thank you, Cana! :)
Please continue the discussion in the already active thread on this topic to keep the information consolidated and easy to find for others.