spenny said:As far as I can tell, the loot system is working the same as it did in EverQuest, which is not individual loot, but group loot that will need to be managed by the players as to who loots what.
I feel like that makes me apprehensive about how successful that will be in todays modern age. Games moved away from that type of system because it became evident that players could'nt be trusted with not ninja looting everything en masse. Hopefully the devs add a computer controlled rolling system for higher than white quality gear and items, otherwise we all know that there will be "those" guys in any party who will loot everything they see. The Devs mention things will "become a CS issue very quickly"(Chris Perkins, Bazgrim class interview) in regards to griefing, but theres nothing TOS-wise to stop the fastest person to loot a corpse to get all the stuff. "First click, first loot" is not a very clean system and it's my hope that that's something they'll leave behind from the older systems.
As a former eq player the loot system was fine. As the game aged people who played had reputations both good and bad. Those that did loot steals didnt often get groups after it became clear. It did however strengthen the bond between playing partners as they earned trust with other party members and later lead to very consistent grouping parties. I do not find this a negative but crucial to a games success. Its what made everquest last year after year with a very solid and consistent player base. I never found my fond memories of everquest being anything about loot but about the friends I made, am still friends with and hope to re-unite with in pantheon when the day comes.
TriteEnvile said:As a former eq player the loot system was fine. As the game aged people who played had reputations both good and bad. Those that did loot steals didnt often get groups after it became clear. It did however strengthen the bond between playing partners as they earned trust with other party members and later lead to very consistent grouping parties. I do not find this a negative but crucial to a games success. Its what made everquest last year after year with a very solid and consistent player base. I never found my fond memories of everquest being anything about loot but about the friends I made, am still friends with and hope to re-unite with in pantheon when the day comes.
He's right...but the first few months before reputations are established and we all find a core group of players to play with are going to be like the wild west.
Looting rules and systems is one way MMORPGs have *definitely* made some innovations and improvements over the years. I'm sure VR will give options for the way individual groups allow looting even if they don't make server-wide rules.
I don't think we'll see things like auto-looted individual loot, but surely we'll see options like need/greed and round-robin and master looter, etc.
I suggest you have a go with the search function, though, OP. This has been discussed A LOT and touches on other subjects like community self-policing which has also been discussed with some heat A LOT.
I predict Bazgrim giving some useful links to those discussions and Kilsin then locking this thread and suggesting you join the existing discussions ;)
For my two cents, I would like to see the trash items replaced with coin that can be autosplit. Trash items are just a nuisance that take up inventory space. The good items should go to the team members that can best use them. If more than one team member, that is what random roll is for.
I am glad to hear that Convo.
To me free-for-all is an *awful* system as the default way to loot.
Ninja looting and the loss of good items to the rudest most selfish players isn't even the worst parts of it.
The worst part is that players will ignore their roles in combat to loot instead and groups will wipe because of this looting rule - in a game where death is expensive. It will be like Gresham's Law (good money drives out bad) and even the nicest player will be strongly tempted to do the same thing just so the douches don't get *all* the loot.
Mortechai said:spenny said:As far as I can tell, the loot system is working the same as it did in EverQuest, which is not individual loot, but group loot that will need to be managed by the players as to who loots what.
I feel like that makes me apprehensive about how successful that will be in todays modern age. Games moved away from that type of system because it became evident that players could'nt be trusted with not ninja looting everything en masse. Hopefully the devs add a computer controlled rolling system for higher than white quality gear and items, otherwise we all know that there will be "those" guys in any party who will loot everything they see. The Devs mention things will "become a CS issue very quickly"(Chris Perkins, Bazgrim class interview) in regards to griefing, but theres nothing TOS-wise to stop the fastest person to loot a corpse to get all the stuff. "First click, first loot" is not a very clean system and it's my hope that that's something they'll leave behind from the older systems.
And modern MMO's aren't lasting, so what does that tell you? The point of this game is to pretty much update the old EQ stuff. I hated ESO's personal loot system, i could farm a dungeon all day and get all the gear i need to be top of the line. Whereas in games like this you actually have to spend time hunting down the right gear and hoping it drops. EQ lasted so long because of this exact system, nothing was given to you, it all had to be earned. That's what i want to see again, i want a reason to camp the named guys and hope they spawn and spend hours trying to get them to spawn, rather than just running the same dungeons over and over and get all the gear you need in no time. I want to barter with people with the high end drops that are rare to come by, it gives me something to work towards. It gives money a reason to exist, and it gives life to the game. If this is not want you want, I'm afraid you are int he wrong place. This game will be difficult in every aspect, and that excites me the most.
dorotea said:I am glad to hear that Convo.
To me free-for-all is an *awful* system as the default way to loot.
Ninja looting and the loss of good items to the rudest most selfish players isn't even the worst parts of it.
The worst part is that players will ignore their roles in combat to loot instead and groups will wipe because of this looting rule - in a game where death is expensive. It will be like Gresham's Law (good money drives out bad) and even the nicest player will be strongly tempted to do the same thing just so the douches don't get *all* the loot.
And those "douches" rarely got groups. If you were a bad player, you know people will find out. Hopefully they will make an advanced loot system like EQ1 did but that took them forever to do that. PRetty much got rid of all the hassles with loot. However, the guys you speak of if they said "Level X Shaman LFG" and he was crappy, there were people out there that would warn others about that. The price you pay for being that "douche" lol.
Doesn't really matter what the looting options are if it's shared/competitive loot. It will breed the same social toxicity that EQ1 loot did, that is, stealing/taking from your group/guild mates. NBG is largely irrelevent, as everyone will need, because everyone can justify needing it. We've been around this mulberry bush dozens of times on these forums, and there's no consensus that makes everyone happy. There's even hardcore folks that don't want a need system that requires you be playing the class that can exclusively use the item, because of greed reasons, as insane as that is.
All of this is fine, as that's currently the design goal and VR evidently expects to gather a large enough target demographic with it. Just don't expect it to end up any different than EQ1, when using the same mechanics.
A solution to this since 1999 is personal loot. Works fine, with appropriate adjusted drop rates and salvage/sacrifice mechanics. In dozens of MMOs with economies that function just fine, if subscriber numbers are any indication. But Brell help you if you suggest it as a solution to Pantheon. People ignore all the potential positives and focus on all the illogical untrue negatives. Every time.
vjek said:Doesn't really matter what the looting options are if it's shared/competitive loot. It will breed the same social toxicity that EQ1 loot did, that is, stealing/taking from your group/guild mates. NBG is largely irrelevent, as everyone will need, because everyone can justify needing it. We've been around this mulberry bush dozens of times on these forums, and there's no consensus that makes everyone happy. There's even hardcore folks that don't want a need system that requires you be playing the class that can exclusively use the item, because of greed reasons, as insane as that is.
All of this is fine, as that's currently the design goal and VR evidently expects to gather a large enough target demographic with it. Just don't expect it to end up any different than EQ1, when using the same mechanics.
A solution to this since 1999 is personal loot. Works fine, with appropriate adjusted drop rates and salvage/sacrifice mechanics. In dozens of MMOs with economies that function just fine, if subscriber numbers are any indication. But Brell help you if you suggest it as a solution to Pantheon. People ignore all the potential positives and focus on all the illogical untrue negatives. Every time.
Personnal loot ? "A la wow / GW2 / eso" where every drops is cut away from your group and strictly personnal ? That sucks, you get randomly items you need or don't need and everytime a guy in your groups get what you wanted, he just leave withouth even letting the opportunity to trade or arrange something.
Automated loot systems are part of what cut the players from each others like they were just mobs pairing for a loot and leaving. Part of what makes a group a group, is the need to share things equally. And if someone is just a sucker, leave them and let them rot.
Of course you will have trinity premade groups with tank/heal/control inviting DPS and leeching everything because they are "the core" group, but as long as no one accept their behavior and let them be the 3 of them, they will be slow and uncompetitive.
With salvage and sacrifice, there are no items "you don't need". As well, personal loot can be tuned to only give you items you can use, if that's the biggest hurdle to acceptance
And in EQ1, the loot options today are such that you don't interact with the loot system. Once set, everything happens automatically.
If you see someone has something you are willing to buy, /tell them.
vjek said:With salvage and sacrifice, there are no items "you don't need". As well, personal loot can be tuned to only give you items you can use, if that's the biggest hurdle to acceptance
And in EQ1, the loot options today are such that you don't interact with the loot system. Once set, everything happens automatically.
If you see someone has something you are willing to buy, /tell them.
Simply put, sure there are people that still need for no reason, or claiming it's for an alt. I'm sorry, but it's for the character you are currently playing. I'm not in this group for alts and again, these people got hated, and rarely found groups. That was the way it was on my EQ server. Maybe everyone else's experience was different, but that was up to the server, because even tho the rules were never defined, they were understood, there were tons of people on my server that got black listed for being greedy. If it's a current upgraded piece, then take it, you earned it. If it isn't, it goes to greed, not to alts or higher level mains, and the ones that take it out of greed when someone needed it, blacklist them, make it known to the player base so his grouping is limited.
Everyone has a need for any piece of loot considering that loot can be sold in order to build funds that can use to buy an upgrade for their character. I do not like the thought of a need/greed/pass system, only being able to lot for gear for your class, or having individual loot pools. This game is heavily focused on social interaction and if your in a group, you need to socialize with the group for things like this. I don't see any appeal of adding a convience that makes things "Fair."
Grimix said:Everyone has a need for any piece of loot considering that loot can be sold in order to build funds that can use to buy an upgrade for their character. I do not like the thought of a need/greed/pass system, only being able to lot for gear for your class, or having individual loot pools. This game is heavily focused on social interaction and if your in a group, you need to socialize with the group for things like this. I don't see any appeal of adding a convience that makes things "Fair."
I think players will want to be able to set-up loot rules and have more intelligent loot mechanics because there are players, like you, who prefer one style of loot distrubtion - the pure "greed" system while other players may prefer a "need before greed" system or "master looter" system or x,y,z system. There are different social norms within different communities and that's ok. It's nice to give the party leader tools to enforce the ground rules they set - no one is going to force you to stay in a party where you don't agree with the loot rules.
While you may not agree that another player should have priority over an item simply because it's an upgrade and they can equip it - many other people would take offense to you taking "their" item. Having clear spelled out rules/expectations that can be enforced by the UI just helps avoid needless confrontation and drama (and I'm sure will save their customer service department many headaches).
I think this is another example of where the purist need to allow room for updates and innovations to systems that will not ultimately impact the core vision of the game. Ultimately a system like this would still allow you to play with your ruleset while allowing other players to play with theirs. There's no right way or wrong what to divy up the loot - but people should be able to decide how they'd like to do it.
Grimix said:Everyone has a need for any piece of loot considering that loot can be sold in order to build funds that can use to buy an upgrade for their character. I do not like the thought of a need/greed/pass system, only being able to lot for gear for your class, or having individual loot pools. This game is heavily focused on social interaction and if your in a group, you need to socialize with the group for things like this. I don't see any appeal of adding a convience that makes things "Fair."
That's the main point. I've seen people (on wow of course) needing items that aren't tradeable and that they already had simply because it was worth a few dozen gold coins, while it could have been an improvement to me. That's just how people use nbg systems, random matchmake and such tools that makes people beeing nothing to each others.
Any automated system will be exploited whatever it is, and personnal loot is a non issue in a situation where ennemies drop only ONE item. Except if you make it so that personnal loot has only 15% chance triggering per character, and thus the boss "kill" has no value most of the time until someone gets a loot they might not even need. What makes MMO great is when you kill a named of some sort, a LOOT will be here and not some RNG ranging from 0 to 6 loots at the rate of 1 per group member.
Aqua said:Split the money when anybody is looting? items well it is a group based game so let the group make the call and like many said if there is ninja looting then that person might have a hard time finding groups in the future !
Splitting worken even if EQ classic, the main problem is you rarely loot 6 of every currencies. As an example if a mob drops 1 platinium, 5 golds, 10 silvers and 18 coppers, the looter will get 1 platinium, 5 golds, 5 silvers and 3 coppers while every other member of the group will get 1 silver and 3 coppers. Because the money couldn't be divided and the algorythm doing the autosplit was not taking previous loots in consideration, only splitting money if there was enough to split at all.
However, this is no longer 1999 and there are maybe more modern ways to do it, or simply let a player do the sharing. Any answer will be good to me.