I hope they get rid of all your gear automatically getting re-equipped after you loot your corpse.
I know it's a little thing, but there should be some pain, some annoyance, some frustration in having to do the little things after you die. You were careless, you didn't prep or you didn't think about it, so there should be things in the game that annoy the bleep out of you to encourage you to not do that again.
Having to recast all you spells, having to re memorize them, having to re-equip all your gear are minor things that you'll never have to do once you figure out how to plan and play.
Having the Re-Equip All as a buy-able ability from a trainer (NPC) is a good way to get it though.
1) Thinking of raiding, you'll die alot and I understand that aspect and raiding is a different game.
2) With it (re-equip all as a default) minimizes the fear fo death.
3) Could be a money sink and a lucrative goal to strive towards.
3.a) Speaking of Re-Memming all your spells, that too could be a buy-able ability.
Everquest was this way originally. I didn't find it frustrating to have to loot all of my items one at a time, I just found it tedious. I'd prefer to keep the loot all button. By the time you get back to your corpse in most cases you've already had to re-memorize any spells you had, possibly regroup depending on where the group members are bound, then make your way back to your corpses (or find help doing it). Then you have to spend the time getting back the experience points you lost. Once I get back to where I was, just let me go on with the game, don't continue to punish me by making me just click a bunch of times on the screen for no reason.
I do want death to be meaningful, but I don't want it to force me to do mindless things just because.
No disrespect intended, but I feel that's one of those things that didn't make me fear death, it simply annoyed me and there's a difference. The XP penalty and the corpse retrieval are the frightening prospect. The amount of clicking on bags and spellbooks and gear slots was just irritating.
I think there were aspects of it that were important, ie. it shouldn't be as instant as it is in the streams currently: If you manage to get to your corpse but aggro a monster you shouldn't be instantly armed and armoured in a single click. Part of the corpse 'recovery' is doing it safely.
So, if they added a 'cast time' to the re-equip and made interruption leave you unequipped (or semi-equipped) that would be ok with me, but I'm not seeing the good in forcing 20 UI clicks instead of one or two.
Thats just it though. Knowing how much you hate doing those things are a good reminder that you need to use caution and care in what you do.
Also, like I said, these could be buy able Quality of Life game enhancements that noob players "can't wait" to get.
Remember in EQ when it took you forever to buy that first bag, but how happy you were when you finally had a 12 slot bag and all of a sudden you could loot 17 items instead of 6. The same thing would happen with these abilities. Finally, I got this Quality of Life ablity where I don't have to re-memming, or re-equip. Again, good money sink, good early game goal, good deterrant to not just mindlessly running through dungeons.
There is never a way to "make death meaningful" there are ways to make staying alive worth it though, just trying to explor ideas to do that.
disposalist said:No disrespect intended, but I feel that's one of those things that didn't make me fear death, it simply annoyed me and there's a difference. The XP penalty and the corpse retrieval are the frightening prospect. The amount of clicking on bags and spellbooks and gear slots was just irritating.
None taken, but this is exactly what I mean and what I'm hoping for. I want something that is infurratingly aggrivating that I don't want to have to do it.
Give me a goal to not do this, i.e. free not ever dying again, or i.e. a QoL enhancement that I have to work to buy from an NPC. I'd happily do that because I hate having to re-loot, re-memming, and re-equipping. However, early in the game, when I can't afford this, it'll be a good pavlovian training tool that I need to learn to play cautiously and take care in what I do.
kelenin said:Everquest was this way originally. I didn't find it frustrating to have to loot all of my items one at a time, I just found it tedious. I'd prefer to keep the loot all button. By the time you get back to your corpse in most cases you've already had to re-memorize any spells you had, possibly regroup depending on where the group members are bound, then make your way back to your corpses (or find help doing it). Then you have to spend the time getting back the experience points you lost. Once I get back to where I was, just let me go on with the game, don't continue to punish me by making me just click a bunch of times on the screen for no reason.
I do want death to be meaningful, but I don't want it to force me to do mindless things just because.
Looting all your items one by one..clicking them into place was tedious..I may be old school but I do like the loot all set up. :)
CanadinaXegony said:Looting all your items one by one..clicking them into place was tedious..I may be old school but I do like the loot all set up. :)
Don't we all. It's a wonderful gift that should be a spell, a magical ability, or reward. Not something that should be part of the game, because "thats just how it is with games today". Something earned or bought and then enjoyed. I can see myself now, my first 10 gold, new bag, or keep saving and get that Loot-All Ability asap, of course with a new bag I can loot more, hence sell more, hence earn more faster, but err, I'm only 90 gold away from the ability....
Valdora said: There a lot of masochistic people here. I get wanting old school penalties for death because it makes for some cool emergent gameplay... but wanting every action we perform be tortuous/tedious just seems strange to me. Hopefully the death itself will be punishment enough. I prefer not to also have a mini boss battle with the UI everytime I recover my corpse. If dragging/dropping gear into inventory slots is the best we can come up with to make the game more challenging I fear for its future.
No one is ever going to fear death, no game desiner today will penilize people for playing their game. If so, that game would die. What would work though is doing things that make you not want to die. It's not a penelty to have to loot all your gear, or re-equip it, but it is a PITA and I don't want to do that, so knowing how much I hate to do that, I'll strive to not die. AND if there is an ability that allows me to negate that PITA, again, it'll probably be the first thing I try to earn/buy.
kreed99 said: Depending on how they code the rez system you might have to loot it item by item so that you leave an item on corpse so you can get max % rez. But they may just leave corpse in game until either a timer or max % rez is performed.
I used to always make sure to have a stack of summoned throwing stars in a main inventory slot that I could leave on my corpse so I could loot my stuff but leave the corpse so I could get it rez'ed later. Eventually it just became common for me to have corpses scattered around the entire world. Every night during our raids, I would randomly recieve /tell's from friendly Cleric's who came across one of my corpses asking me if I wanted them to res me. It kind of became a little inside joke in our guild, people would bet on how many 'rez' offers I would get each night.
Since I was the main Puller for our raids, I also would often have a nice little pile of corpses at the end of raids. And this is not because I was a bad puller, but rather because of how many bosses had Death Touches :-)
I personally exploited EQ with a corpse at zoneline with full CR gear so that raid CR’s were easier. So i dont know if they are ok with this mechanic or they want to remove it. Either way people will find a way to make CR easier through rez manipulation.
To be honest I don't remember any raids where we didn't have monks and rogues who could drag all the corpses to a safe spot to rez. We never had to get CR gear just to fight back in to our corpses. The real anoying part was simply the long long runs from town when you didn't have a Mage bound outside the raid zone for Call of the Hero.
As others have said, this is a good quality of life feature. And I'm glad they got it in the game so early. Making things more annoying does NOT equal making it more challening. Challenge should be interesting. There are plenty of other more creative ways to make you not want to die.
Bazgrim said:As others have said, this is a good quality of life feature. And I'm glad they got it in the game so early. Making things more annoying does NOT equal making it more challening. Challenge should be interesting. There are plenty of other more creative ways to make you not want to die.
Such as? And we'll see if any are in game.
iirc you didnt have to drag and drop, you could right click around the square of item slots and they would auto-load armor into armor slots and bags into inventory. click-click-click-click-click etc and done. If you were awake and "there" didnt take long at all and I did feel the anxiety of needong to get that stuff fast- just in case a wanderer came in- heh and got kinda annoyed at those that did not especially if they were rezzed before I was and still hadn't looted all of their corpse thereby allowing it to poof and make things easy to see for everyone.
I dont think making it a pain by looting individual or even buying a `loot all" skill is tye answer but I DO think what we have seen so far is indeed senceless to even do a corpse run so something more is indeed needed. I dont think Individual looting is it. Tedious and boring at low levels, non existant at higher levels.
This does bring me back to the question thats been bugging me. Brad has confirmed `no gear loss"
SO, why do we need to go get our corpse? Why not just ditch itvand go play an alt?
Exp loss? yea whatever, you wont always get a rez anyway and im in no hurry to level.
I agree Zorkon, EQ2 did experience loss and xp debt. It was nothing, it wasn't a deterrent at all.
This game claims to be a throwback to the group centric, challenging game play of days gone bye. None of us remembers what that challenge was. No one liked corpse runs, no one liked having to individually loot everything we had, but what we did like was the fear, the thoughts, the panic as we figured out that we were going to die. Then the rush was on, run? Where to? Where is a place I'll be able to get back to so I can saftly get my corpse, let alone loot. Is a place I'll remember? ****, when did I last bind...dammit, I'm f@(ked! Crap where am I? Thats what we loved.
What was EQ's biggest challenge? Corpse runs and gear retrieval (actually Idk, I just made that up to support my argument) but people are on this site claiming to want the "good ole days" back but are completely spoiled by the Lazy Susan conveniences today. Nobody wants to do the hard, tedious, irritating things, they just want to be rewarded for killing Fiona (who cares that we ended up just zerging her after we wiped 13 times) REWARD US!
Who cares that I died to a horde of Black Rose Guards, thats not where I was going to camp anyway, so don't punish me for being careless, it's not what I want.
Thats the mentality today, thats the mentality everywhere and that mentality is what destroys the fun in games, people want cheat codes, and if they can't have that, the want the work to be easy, but when the work is easy the reward is null. This is why everyone feels empty today, with dozens upon dozens of high quality MMO's out there and we all can't find one we like? It's not that they are bad, its that the developers of those games have listened to us and have made those games "fun" and "accessable" right away. Then here we are complaining the games aren't fullfilling because they're not, they give us everthing and we have to work for nothing. Thats not fun.
For the most part, having to click every single item to loot it will only effect in-battle ressurections. In general it won't effect corpse recovery, since if you can get back to your corpse, chances are you can drag it to a safe spot to loot it anyway. That being said, I see no problem with having a loot timer. If you click loot all have the game just start looting items for you over a period of time, like you suggested above.
Everything else that is in for corpse recovery has a specific purpose that requires skill or challenge. Buffing up after death is technically a skill, because I have seen many groups in EQ1 that died and would immediately start running back with their cleric or chanter yelling at them to stop so they can buff. Fighting back obviously requires challenge, or getting friends to go in requires you having some community support of some kind (even if it's just a random group that happens to be nearby). Getting back the XP you lost requires skill for you and your group. Clicking each item in your loot window is just tedious. It requires no skill, no challenge, no nothing. It's just tedious and boring.
But if you feel there would be a challenge added by requiring a time based looting method as you mentioned, I can understand that. Because then it does require a little skill to decide whether or not to loot your corpse while the group is fighting. To that point I would suggest the "Loot All" would loot everything instantly when nobody in the group has agro, and otherwise does it on a timed basis.
I am in the camp that says we don't need to make things tedious and boring and then crow about this being challenging.
Let's make finding things challenging. Let's make killing things challenging. Let's make death cost enough experience that we all want to try *hard* not to do it too often. If the main reason I respect the Grim Reaper is not wanting to spend 30 minutes clicking on a corpse we have gone seriously off track.
dorotea said:I am in the camp that says we don't need to make things tedious and boring and then crow about this being challenging.
Let's make finding things challenging. Let's make killing things challenging. Let's make death cost enough experience that we all want to try *hard* not to do it too often. If the main reason I respect the Grim Reaper is not wanting to spend 30 minutes clicking on a corpse we have gone seriously off track.
Couldn't agree more. Fighting the monsters should be the challenge. Death is going to happen, a lot in certain areas and types of gameplay (high end raiding or PvP if it's added). Penalties for dying are aok, tedious punishment from the ui not so much.
dorotea said:I am in the camp that says we don't need to make things tedious and boring and then crow about this being challenging.
Let's make finding things challenging. Let's make killing things challenging. Let's make death cost enough experience that we all want to try *hard* not to do it too often. If the main reason I respect the Grim Reaper is not wanting to spend 30 minutes clicking on a corpse we have gone seriously off track.
That's the problem.
No loss of gear + no loss of level THIS will not be achieved.
What exactly would be this spot that were going to care about so much? 10 kills to make it back up? 100? Irrelevant, just means I get to stay at level X that much longer, explore dungeon Z that much longer. It's just 10- 20 kills longer till I get to "end game" and burn out and quit.
Experience loss is an invisible way of saying "death stings"... when actually, no it doesn't!
Edit: im watchingbthe latest strean....3 min in and Brad says "took me all of PAX to get 4 levels" experience loss is Not enough. Unless they plan to loose ALL of the exp you have for that the level your on.... but the you cant even loose the level. But that might stin enough.
Zorkon said:dorotea said:I am in the camp that says we don't need to make things tedious and boring and then crow about this being challenging.
Let's make finding things challenging. Let's make killing things challenging. Let's make death cost enough experience that we all want to try *hard* not to do it too often. If the main reason I respect the Grim Reaper is not wanting to spend 30 minutes clicking on a corpse we have gone seriously off track.
That's the problem.
No loss of gear + no loss of level THIS will not be achieved.
What exactly would be this spot that were going to care about so much? 10 kills to make it back up? 100? Irrelevant, just means I get to stay at level X that much longer, explore dungeon Z that much longer. It's just 10- 20 kills longer till I get to "end game" and burn out and quit.
Experience loss is an invisible way of saying "death stings"... when actually, no it doesn't!
Clicking buttons on the interface 20+ times to re-acquire and equip your gear doesn't sting either, it just annoys you. It's pointless, tedious, uninteresting, and unfun busywork that will turn people off the game.
Zyellinia said:Zorkon said:dorotea said:I am in the camp that says we don't need to make things tedious and boring and then crow about this being challenging.
Let's make finding things challenging. Let's make killing things challenging. Let's make death cost enough experience that we all want to try *hard* not to do it too often. If the main reason I respect the Grim Reaper is not wanting to spend 30 minutes clicking on a corpse we have gone seriously off track.
That's the problem.
No loss of gear + no loss of level THIS will not be achieved.
What exactly would be this spot that were going to care about so much? 10 kills to make it back up? 100? Irrelevant, just means I get to stay at level X that much longer, explore dungeon Z that much longer. It's just 10- 20 kills longer till I get to "end game" and burn out and quit.
Experience loss is an invisible way of saying "death stings"... when actually, no it doesn't!
Clicking buttons on the interface 20+ times to re-acquire and equip your gear doesn't sting either, it just annoys you. It's pointless, tedious, uninteresting, and unfun busywork that will turn people off the game.
Agreed. I said that in my first post in this thread.... thats not the answer but it needs something more than just exp loss and an unnecessary corpse run.
Zorkon said:... it needs something more than just exp loss and an unnecessary corpse run.
It sounds like you're saying any temporary loss is insufficient, but I'm convinced beyond all doubt that anything permanent is too much. For those of us who plan on doing progression content - that is, trying to figure out the hardest content without spoilers - death will be inevitable. Loss of xp with the threat of de-leveling is very significant if you're likely to die half a dozen times in one night. If my character is being repeatedly defeated like that, then I, as a player, should feel defeated, too. I shouldn't be able to endlessly throw myself at the same progression content until we finally figure it out. Spending another night or two trying to win that xp back so I can bear to lose it again the next time we hit the hard stuff is meaningful. But if those half-dozen deaths have a permanent negative effect on my character, I'm not even going to try - heck, I probably wouldn't even bother playing the game.
Zyellinia said:Clicking buttons on the interface 20+ times to re-acquire and equip your gear doesn't sting either, it just annoys you. It's pointless, tedious, uninteresting, and unfun busywork that will turn people off the game.
Spot on. EXP loss and corpse runs are enough to cause fear/hesitation. I know I was never afraid of losing my corpse at any point in EQ, but boy did I fear the loss of time in travelling to retreiving my corpse and the time lost having to regain the experience.