Is Pantheon going to be using LUA as its code or HTML? Games like ESO have a pretty good fan following when its comes to UI's and a game like SWTOR has shown, poor UI design bogs down game performance.....
It certainly won't be Lua as that allows for mods that the devs have already said they don't want. They said in the stream that it will be cosmetic UI modifications only. So nothing like DPS meters or anything like that I am afraid. Personally I'm glad about that. I really enjoy ESO but some of the modifications just ruin the game (for instance there is a mod which tells you where all of the runes are so you don't have to go looking for them).
I imagine the UI will be customised through XML or some other similar system.
Well, a DPS meter is essentially a cosmetic mod, if you want to get technical. It just turns the combat spam in your chat window into a more human readable format.
As for the ESO mod telling you where runes are, ehhh, having Allakhazam open on a second monitor achieves the same goal.
It's whatever though.
Liav said:Well, a DPS meter is essentially a cosmetic mod, if you want to get technical. It just turns the combat spam in your chat window into a more human readable format.
You'll find that you need a scripting language to parse the combat log and turn it into something which is viewable as a DPS meter and that won't be available based on what the developers have said. You'll be able to parse combat logs outside of the game but not inside the game. There is a reason there were no in-game DPS meters for EQ. The developers mentioned this in the last stream when they said user interface modification would be cosmetic only. There won't be any scripting available to do these sorts of things.
Cromulent said:You'll find that you need a scripting language to parse the combat log and turn it into something which is viewable as a DPS meter and that won't be available based on what the developers have said. You'll be able to parse combat logs outside of the game but not inside the game. There is a reason there were no in-game DPS meters for EQ. The developers mentioned this in the last stream when they said user interface modification would be cosmetic only. There won't be any scripting available to do these sorts of things.
I just find it bizarre that allowing scripting to do it out of game is inherently worse than in game. The logic confounds me. Either way, I don't really care.
Liav said:I just find it bizarre that allowing scripting to do it out of game is inherently worse than in game. The logic confounds me. Either way, I don't really care.
Because if they don't allow it in game they can put it in the EULA against using 3rd party tools for bannable offensives. If its in the UI and they say they allow custom scripts, it would be harder to crack down on game breaking advantages/hacks.
Aich said:Because if they don't allow it in game they can put it in the EULA against using 3rd party tools for bannable offensives. If its in the UI and they say they allow custom scripts, it would be harder to crack down on game breaking advantages/hacks.
I think you have some misconceptions about how addons work. Generally, there is an API provided that information is pulled from, and the content of the API is the only information you have access to. If a game breaking advantage is provided through the API, that is a failure of the developers. If you're hacking the game client to get information, that has absolutely nothing to do with UI modifications.
It is practically impossible to detect a log parsing program. If your game allows text exporting of combat information, there is absolutely zero way to prevent parsing. In addition, no game I have ever played has had provisions against log parsing in their EULA.
If you can pull combat log out to text then it will be easy and impossible to stop or track. Maybe they won't be able to do live view of dps but be sure that guilds and people will be taking logs, parsing them and analyse the numbers thuroughly.
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu Svartie
Liav said:Aich said:Because if they don't allow it in game they can put it in the EULA against using 3rd party tools for bannable offensives. If its in the UI and they say they allow custom scripts, it would be harder to crack down on game breaking advantages/hacks.
I think you have some misconceptions about how addons work. Generally, there is an API provided that information is pulled from, and the content of the API is the only information you have access to. If a game breaking advantage is provided through the API, that is a failure of the developers. If you're hacking the game client to get information, that has absolutely nothing to do with UI modifications.
It is practically impossible to detect a log parsing program. If your game allows text exporting of combat information, there is absolutely zero way to prevent parsing. In addition, no game I have ever played has had provisions against log parsing in their EULA.
I was speaking too 3rd party tools and how the EULA might handle it. UI customization that allowed scripts could potentially lead to information leaks that is not intended for the "game" experience and or macroing actions due to information provided to the client. My main concern is automating actions and boting.
I also never mentioned log parsing.
But the developers have said no UI mods other then cosmetic so I am glad.
Aich said:I was speaking too 3rd party tools and how the EULA might handle it. UI customization that allowed scripts could potentially lead to information leaks that is not intended for the "game" experience and or macroing actions due to information provided to the client. My main concern is automating actions and boting.
I also never mentioned log parsing.
But the developers have said no UI mods other then cosmetic so I am glad.
UI customization that allows scripting is limited by the API set forth by the developers. There aren't any such thing as leaks unless the developers are incompetent in their implementation and allow data to be leaked. WoW has had addons for years and I've never heard of unintentional data being leaked as a result of it. Then again, Blizzard is excellent when it comes to QA.
Automating actions and botting are almost 100% done with third party applications that inject into the client memory or monitor incoming packets. It's not really possible to read unintended information via UI mods unless you're already hacking the client.
I mentioned log parsing because you brought up "third party tools", which I could only assume meant third party log parsing programs based on the context of the conversation. Context is important, you know.
In terms of DPS meters, if there is a log there will be a DPS meter. No if ands or buts about it. Many games have explicitly stated they would have no DPS meters yet the players found ways to do it in every game.
Cosmetic UI changes can be a double edged sword. Depends on the type of format they go with and just how much is alterable before we can know what type of things to expect. Long as ShowEQ and MySQL type stuff don't exist I could really care less. I am completely fine with wow type mods because the game isn't twitch gameplay. You won't need 90% of them so it would be pointless to make them and if the game is done right you wouldn't need the others. Best thing about cosmetic stuff is that if it becomes hugely popular the dev's can just make it baseline with very little effort
MySQL, lol. Sorry. I just found that hilarious.
ShowEQ is pretty rough to deal with. I'm not 100% keen on how video game networking works, but unless I'm mistaken, the client has to receive at least SOME data regarding the locations of entities in the world, otherwise it has no way of displaying that information.
For instance, the client has no way to display a mob at a set of X,Y,Z coordinates unless it receives a packet containing them. It has no way to display the name of a player unless the name is sent to the client.
Encrypting the packets may or not be viable, I don't know. All I know is that if there is a server and a client, it is possible to intercept and decipher the information (packets) sent between the two. Making it time/money/effort prohibitive to do so is the key.
MacroQuest 2 however is a completely different beast and injects directly into the client. With enough safeguards and detection methods, this should be preventable.
Liav said:WoW has had addons for years and I've never heard of unintentional data being leaked as a result of it. Then again, Blizzard is excellent when it comes to QA.
I don't play Wow but took 30 seconds on google to a tool called EWT for WoW that basically hacks the game and allows LUA UI script function elevation.
This reminds me of MQ.
I am just glad the devs have said no addons minus cosmetic changes.
I downloaded EWT and it is literally a folder containing an executable and a .dll. It doesn't interact with WoW's addon system in any way.
As a matter of fact, it is virtually identical to MacroQuest2 in function, and MacroQuest2 is not contingent on an addon API as an addon API doesn't even exist in EQ.
It's probably for the best if we don't discuss things like this on this forum though. I don't want to give people the wrong idea. I'm sure the developers at VR will do everything in their power to make it difficult to achieve. Might even be advisable to just delete the last 3-4 posts in this thread.
Liav said:I downloaded EWT and it is literally a folder containing an executable and a .dll. It doesn't interact with WoW's addon system in any way.
As a matter of fact, it is virtually identical to MacroQuest2 in function, and MacroQuest2 is not contingent on an addon API as an addon API doesn't even exist in EQ.
It's probably for the best if we don't discuss things like this on this forum though. I don't want to give people the wrong idea. I'm sure the developers at VR will do everything in their power to make it difficult to achieve. Might even be advisable to just delete the last 3-4 posts in this thread.
Yeah thats why I didn't link to it lol. That EWT does allow LUA exploiting but I'll shut up now. Good discussion tho. I still think UI scripts can be exploited and glad they arn't being added in, at least not yet.
Liav said:MySQL, lol. Sorry. I just found that hilarious.
ShowEQ is pretty rough to deal with. I'm not 100% keen on how video game networking works, but unless I'm mistaken, the client has to receive at least SOME data regarding the locations of entities in the world, otherwise it has no way of displaying that information.
Yea I am completely clueless when it comes to coding. I just know the ones that have destroyed games in the past and would like to see that prevented. Especially in this type of game. In games where mobs respawn in ~3 minutes and majority is instanced it makes no difference but here in the open world it's a destructive beast.
Liav said:SWTOR's UI is Scaleform, which is based on Flash. Everyone hates Flash.
Everyone hates Flash player. Adobe Flash is actually a relatively good tool for building 2D animations, and I think it is particularly well suited for interface elements. Plus, you can hire obsolete Flash artists for pennies on the dollar. You don't need Scaleform either, you can grab the SWF spec and pull out the assets/data you need easily enough. That's how Super Meat Boy was made. I'm not so sure about it being used for modding UI's for something like a MMO though.
grumble said:Everyone hates Flash player. Adobe Flash is actually a relatively good tool for building 2D animations, and I think it is particularly well suited for interface elements. Plus, you can hire obsolete Flash artists for pennies on the dollar. You don't need Scaleform either, you can grab the SWF spec and pull out the assets/data you need easily enough. That's how Super Meat Boy was made. I'm not so sure about it being used for modding UI's for something like a MMO though.
Every MMO I've ever played with a Flash-based interface has tanked performance atrociously. TERA for instance would gain about 30% FPS just by toggling your UI off.
I don't know. I'm personally a fan of XML.
VR has stated quite plainly that they will not even attempt to police the parsing of logfiles with the stance that they have the ability to manage what goes into those logs. If, however, you build an app that circumvents the measures meant to limit which data is collected (and then correlated/displayed), that's a different story entirely. If you want to create a DPS app that runs off of logs generated by the game engine, then have at it. Just don't try to hack the client so that the meter is displayed in-game.
That's an easily defensible line to draw. Any out-of-game ap can't display any information the devs don't want displayed without hacks to the client. By extension any add-on can't modify the in-game experience in any way that provides advantage to the player that impliments it. Not without the possible ramifications of account deactivation. By seperating what you do with provided data outside the game from data mined from the client there's a clear deliniation made for what is acceptable and what is not. No grey area is created with, "Yes, you can have an in-game dps meter add-on, but you can't have an in-game auto-mapping add-on.".