i dont get it why should somone else be able to steal your NM if you claim it first, it should be first to attack gets to have it. having played only alil of EQ when it was released and allot of ffxi when it was released, ffxi clearly did allot of things better. i never got hooked on EQ. whats the point of camping a NM if you cant feel the rush of beating somone to the claim.
Mathir said:Kilsin said:Yes, I agree with relatively quick respawns but with lockout timers to prevent the first guild continuing kill after kill locking the mob down and preventing anyone else from killing it, as I have mentioned a few times now but that is my personal opinion, not an official stance. ;)
Yikes. What do you mean by "kill after kill"? I hope you guys go the EQ route where an open world raid mob is on a week (or more) timer. If the thing repops over and over in a few hours, ugh, what a terrible design decision.... You are a small team, limited budget, and this game's target audience is the old school crowd. Making raid mobs rare by putting in a respawn restriction is the cheapest and easiest way to ensure your content lasts a considerable time, something all of us enjoy (chasing the elusive carrot). Plus, it just adds to the achievement concept as the gear is limited on the server due to the spawn rarity, it makes actually killing the raid mob, you know, an achievement. Lock out timers for one guild does nothing to curb item inflation on the server when every other guild can kill the same content on the same day. If you guys do it the way you describe, I hope the loot tables are massive, each individual drop rate is like 1%, and the raid boss drops 2-3 items per kill at most.
There are many ways to handle this, VG did it best in my opinion but we will do what is best for Pantheon. I was just posting my opinion of how to mitigate a guild locking down a named mob by using a lockout timer, the difficulty of the mob can also be the barrier to stop inflation among many other methods, even if it repops instantly, it doesn;t mean everyone will be able to kill it.
Insulting a multitude of developers by saying "it is a terrible design" just because you don't agree with it or don't like it is not the way to go, my friend, our devs have not only been around many AAA games but have also helped create some of them and they know their stuff, not to mention many of us have raided at the highest level, we will do what we think is best for Pantheon while keeping in line with our vision for the game. :)
Kilsin said:Yes, I agree with relatively quick respawns but with lockout timers to prevent the first guild continuing kill after kill locking the mob down and preventing anyone else from killing it, as I have mentioned a few times now but that is my personal opinion, not an official stance. ;)
Ahh, yeah. I forgot about this mechanic in EQ2, it actually worked very well. I don't know about the camping or kill stealing thing, but it did make it nice so you or your guild couldn't just sit and wait for the respawn to get the loot from a kill again.
Riply said: I really hope there are some horrific camps.....little context, I have personally camped; Hadden several times for the fish bone earring, Snow gryphon for eye patch of plunder, Ancient cyclops for j boots, Countless key quest items, Raid mobs, rare spawns, epic quests, etc, etc......alot of which I whined and complained about along the way. Heck I even played a Troll Shadowknight and worked all the faction needed to be loved by everyone. I was also in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on my server, we were the "politically correct" guild on our server that would get steamrolled on occasion for whatever raid mob had spawned. It sucked and people would be pissed.....but.... The thing that I realized a couple years after leaving EQ and attempting to play other MMOs, was that the contested content, the rarity of items and over all uniqueness that you inevitably ended up having with your characters, was really one of the greatest things about EQ. Just looking at a characters inventory and striving to have whatever cool starkly thing they had or how proud you were to be the one with the super rare sparkly item. I am not entirely sure how you reinvent this concept of camping and rewards for doing so, but it needs to exist in some fashion. Yes people will abuse systems, yes people will grief one another and yes, you will be annoyed by having to camp. But, sometimes those annoyances turn out to be some of the things that make a game great.
Nailed it.
Welcome back to the forum.
Riply said: I really hope there are some horrific camps.....little context, I have personally camped; Hadden several times for the fish bone earring, Snow gryphon for eye patch of plunder, Ancient cyclops for j boots, Countless key quest items, Raid mobs, rare spawns, epic quests, etc, etc......alot of which I whined and complained about along the way. Heck I even played a Troll Shadowknight and worked all the faction needed to be loved by everyone. I was also in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on my server, we were the "politically correct" guild on our server that would get steamrolled on occasion for whatever raid mob had spawned. It sucked and people would be pissed.....but.... The thing that I realized a couple years after leaving EQ and attempting to play other MMOs, was that the contested content, the rarity of items and over all uniqueness that you inevitably ended up having with your characters, was really one of the greatest things about EQ. Just looking at a characters inventory and striving to have whatever cool starkly thing they had or how proud you were to be the one with the super rare sparkly item. I am not entirely sure how you reinvent this concept of camping and rewards for doing so, but it needs to exist in some fashion. Yes people will abuse systems, yes people will grief one another and yes, you will be annoyed by having to camp. But, sometimes those annoyances turn out to be some of the things that make a game great.
Very well said and I agree, I think a good mix of everything is the way to balance it, not just throw all of our eggs in one basket and use that as a blanket answer to all mobs but we will, of course, use you folks to help us test this and from there we can make any changes that are needed to get it feeling right for Pantheon.
Amsai said: @ Mathis Yea what Wobels said. Kinda thought that was implied since you had quoted Kilsin. So for clarity. Very low drop rates, nothing more than about 6 hours respawn, and weekly lock outs win or no win.
Why would you lock somebody out of a mob even if they lose the fight?
I'm not sure of your personal raiding experience (so don't take this as a personal insult), but learning a new mob can take A LOT of wipes. If I have to pull a mob 20 times to learn all its abilities and get the strats down, you're telling me I should get only one shot a week at it?
I'm hoping I misunderstood what you meant, because I can't think of any justification for such a thing.
Searril said:Amsai said: @ Mathis Yea what Wobels said. Kinda thought that was implied since you had quoted Kilsin. So for clarity. Very low drop rates, nothing more than about 6 hours respawn, and weekly lock outs win or no win.Why would you lock somebody out of a mob even if they lose the fight?
I'm not sure of your personal raiding experience (so don't take this as a personal insult), but learning a new mob can take A LOT of wipes. If I have to pull a mob 20 times to learn all its abilities and get the strats down, you're telling me I should get only one shot a week at it?
I'm hoping I misunderstood what you meant, because I can't think of any justification for such a thing.
as far as i know your only locked on most games if you defeat said mob.
Amsai said: I just thought I'd add it on to increase difficulty and baring access to loot longer. But it wouldn't have to be that way.
There are a few "line in the sand" type things we all have where we would refuse to play a game if it had this or that design choice. I can confidently say if such a thing as this existed in Pantheon that would cross the line for me (and I'm betting it would for a lot of other people, if not immediately, then at least after you've been locked out of a mob for weeks on end due to a couple wipes while learning).
Amsai said: I'm sure it could be tweaked. But we have people wanting everything from Instanced to full access open world contested content. What would you suggest? I was shooting for middle ground.
The safest assumption at this point (and the one I'm working under) is that there will be some type of sharding for certain raid zones, but there will under no circumstances be full instancing.
The assumption is also that in addition to raid zones there will at least be some number of completely non-sharded raid mobs, either roaming the overland or in the bottom of a dungeon somewhere.
If you accept those (which I do, and is what I base my stance on) then I think it's fair to operate under a mostly EQ type community rule for non-sharded raid mobs. The basic rules are that whoever is clearing to a mob first gets to pull first. If your force shows up and someone else has already cleared to a mob, then you wait for them to pull. Now, you don't sit around for an hour waiting for the first force to pull a mob. Once you've cleared the last bit of trash it should take you no longer than a minute or two to make sure nobody lost any buffs during the trash clearing and get ready to pull.
Now, once the mob is pulled by the force clearing the trash, if that force wins, then they loot and everyone moves on. If that first force wipes, then the second force that's there waiting gets their chance to pull. If they win, they loot and everyone moves on. If they wipe also, then the third force pulls, or if nobody is there then it's the first force's chance again.
This goes on until one of them kills the mob or both give up and go home. I can think of no circumstances where it would ever make sense to lock someone from a mob after a wipe. You simply take turns or you just keep trying if nobody else is there ready to take a turn. We did this in EQ and it was just understood that that's what you did. I see no reason to change it.
For sharded type raid instances, then yes there should be a shorter respawn time, but if you down the mob you should be locked out of it for 4.5 days or 6.5 days or whatever is appropriate for that mob.