Vandraad said:Do not provide some hard-coded mechanice to 'fix' what can be handled by players actually talking to each other. I say this because if you, for example, lock an encounter by who first applied 1point of damage, eventually...invariably, you'll find yourself in a situation where you're getting your ass handed to you and, because of a stupid game mechanic introduced because people would rather have the game solve their social problems than actually having to deal with another person/group, nobody around can help you. You'll die and someone else will take your spawn, get the item they wanted, then take over your camp. Or walk away leaving you to do your own corpse run. Either way, you lose...all because you didn't want to have to deal with other people over a disagreement.
Honestly if someonisn't going to help you becuase it is locked to them they probably aren't going to help you if it wasn't locked to them it a personal choice, there's nothing from stopping them from helping you even if its locked, you could heal their tank, take aggro so their tank won't die, hit the target so it dies faster. If you died becuase the particular preson didn't help you it wasn't becuase the target was locked, it was becuase they wanted you to die to take your camp simple as that, don't blame the locked system it didn't do anything but have you claim the target.
Seemes to me that this discussion is gear-centered and/or loot-centered. People are talking about mobs getting stolen away, but what if the entire thing doesn't work that way at all. What if others can come along and join in the battle and/or help in some way without the threat of 'stealing' the mob away. Perhaps the loot is distributed through a mechanic that works differently than first strike or most dps. Perhaps the whole thing can actually work to promote the social environment distributing loot fairly among all who participated.
I don't know. Just a thought here, but what if this thread is one giant squable over nothing. Things might be different than it used to be. Things might be better.
Dullahan said:chenzeme said:Dullahan: Your reputation does affect gameplay if you need people to progress.
It can only affect your game play if you cannot find a group of like minded individuals. As soon as you have a group (or worse a guild) where KSing is a part of that psyche (and the more players there are, the more likely this will happen), then game play repution will mean absoultely nothing to these people. Infact, the more "leet" the better, and so KSing is reinforced.
Dullahan: There will always be KSing
KSing cannot happen if mobs are "owned" by first tags and lasts until the mob is killed, the player is killed, the player zones, or the event times out after there are no registered hits for x number of seconds.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree and see how it is dealt with by Pantheon. Personally, I think it is much more frustrating to have a kill stolen rather than a mob pinched by a long ranged snipe.
KS does happen with first tag. You simply steal the mob by tagging faster. Its still stealing whether you claimed the mob or not. If anything, allowing a mob to become claimed is worse because one or two people can grief an entire group by simply getting the first hit in.
As to people seeking out like minded people who steal mobs, it becomes much easier for them to get banned when they begin to grossly abuse the rules as a guild.
Dullahan. That doesnt make any sense to me at all. Thats not stealing, thats just the nature of contested content in my mind. There was nothing to steal. Simply by camping it doesnt mean you own that mob. Now you can take it away from me AFTER I own it and I would call that stealing. But if I get the first hit in thats fair game in my mind. A contest to see who grabs it first, and then win or loose, live or die, reward or no reward you have to live with the consequences. Also If I or my group wipes. Then its back open for grabs. No hard feelings cause its contested content. We tried and failed and at that point I would say it would be selfish of my or my group to bellyache about how its our mob. I dont see any of what I said as being rude, mean spirited or anything like that. This might make my guild and other guilds rivals, but not necessarily enemies. So I definitely disagree with you. This is in no way KSing. On the other hand a group or guild being able to come in and outdamage you after you already took on the challenge is absolutely KSing, and is extremely rude for 1. taking your claim, 2. ruining the challenge that you took on (like interferring in a duel).
Now I know its probably something EQ and XI folks likely cant agree on. But if its some consolation, the EQ way doesnt sound bad if people can follow the ettiquette you hope, and Ill be happy to follow this way. But to me thats a big if.
That is because you played FFXI. If you are camping something, you do have rights to it. If someone else is camping it, they have right to it. In real life, that is called common courtesy. When someone gets up from a table in a restaurant to use the restroom, you don't just walk up and trash their food and take their table. If you are waiting in line for an event with limited seating, you don't just cut in line because you feel like it.
XI melted your brain.
Not to say I think everyone should be forced to abide by those rules, but ideally there should be repercussions and by making a bad name for yourself or your guild, it opens the door for other players to not group, trade, raid or port you and make it a point to steal your camps at every chance. This is also why I play on PvP servers. If someone steals my mob, I kill them and sit on their corpse until they apologize and promise not to do it again... or until they log out.
I do think that those kind of camps should be minimized. There will always be those special throne rooms where a boss spawns but other than that I think its time to add more variation to prevent those kinds of scenarios. Add in mobs that can spawn randomly throughout an area or a wing of a dungeon. Make tracking important, make dungeon crawling a thing. Less things for people to fight over, and really it provides a wider variety of potential items for your group so half or more of your party isn't there without any hope of personal gain.
How about for some of the best raid bosses, we don't have a set spot for them to spawn.
Raid boss XX_XX is on a 4 day timer, but to find out where it spawns next, you have to ask to townsfolk and solve the riddle or quest of where it'll spawn.
Then there is no camping, and it's not on a rotation of spawn points. It could spawn in an open field, it would be in the bottom of a hard dungeon, it could be at the gates of the city, and it can be completely random.
Some raids could be static but for those that are the most prized, having them have to be found everytime could settle the camping issue. Or at least assist in easing it.
Scenario time!
Raid boss is up and a guild starts clearing the way down to his spawn point. Looking around, that guild sees no other raid heading to the boss. Soon the raid is near the boss when suddenly the zone population doubles as another guild zones in. The rogue from the first raid, who is ahead scouting the boss, sees a mage log in and a few seconds later a Ranger appears. First raid rushes up just as the ranger tags the boss and starts to kite it. Now ask yourself...who is more prepared to kill the boss? The raid that is standing right outside his spawn chamber fully buffed ready to rush in or the guild that is still zonining in but 'tagged' the boss and is now kiting it while the mage starts summoning people down.
EDIT: I'll add this: No matter what mechanic the devs put in (or not put in) inevitably that mechanic will not work out in your favor. And this won't happen just once, or twice, but over and over again. None of the solutions presented other than 'let people work it out on their own' is the most equitable and balanced solution. KSing will happen, expect it to happen at every spawn, every camp, every raid, every quest whatever, and just get over it. The world isn't ending just because someone was a %#&@ and stole a digital nothing from you.
Vandraad said:Do not provide some hard-coded mechanice to 'fix' what can be handled by players actually talking to each other. I say this because if you, for example, lock an encounter by who first applied 1point of damage, eventually...invariably, you'll find yourself in a situation where you're getting your ass handed to you and, because of a stupid game mechanic introduced because people would rather have the game solve their social problems than actually having to deal with another person/group, nobody around can help you. You'll die and someone else will take your spawn, get the item they wanted, then take over your camp. Or walk away leaving you to do your own corpse run. Either way, you lose...all because you didn't want to have to deal with other people over a disagreement.
Exactly what I was thinking...
Vandraad said:Scenario time!
Raid boss is up and a guild starts clearing the way down to his spawn point. Looking around, that guild sees no other raid heading to the boss. Soon the raid is near the boss when suddenly the zone population doubles as another guild zones in. The rogue from the first raid, who is ahead scouting the boss, sees a mage log in and a few seconds later a Ranger appears. First raid rushes up just as the ranger tags the boss and starts to kite it. Now ask yourself...who is more prepared to kill the boss? The raid that is standing right outside his spawn chamber fully buffed ready to rush in or the guild that is still zonining in but 'tagged' the boss and is now kiting it while the mage starts summoning people down.
EDIT: I'll add this: No matter what mechanic the devs put in (or not put in) inevitably that mechanic will not work out in your favor. And this won't happen just once, or twice, but over and over again. None of the solutions presented other than 'let people work it out on their own' is the most equitable and balanced solution. KSing will happen, expect it to happen at every spawn, every camp, every raid, every quest whatever, and just get over it. The world isn't ending just because someone was a %#&@ and stole a digital nothing from you.
The person who tagged it would be dead in seconds, so no need to worry about them or their guild trying to kite a named mob, especially in one of our dungeons, so far players can't outrun any mob until we tweak it in testing sessions. :)
We will most likely have mechanics to stop people logging into or being summoned to boss/named areas deep in dungeons anyway unless they all cleared down there the day/night before and camped but sometimes it will be about those guilds talking to each other and working something out, sometimes one of the guilds will have to wait until the first guild has an attempt on the mob, it isn't always fun but such is life.
Things like making a /shout or /zone announcements to say that X Guild is clearing down to X Named will be common, then if someone tries to steal the named then both guilds will have something to talk about and work out, hopefully in a mature fashion but not all mobs and named mobs will be free to attack at all times, there will have to be some leniency given plus rosters and discussions with other guilds/players if we are to keep the game as instance free as possible and that is part of the whole open world experience, some of it can be boring or downtime/waiting.
Amsai said:Dullahan. That doesnt make any sense to me at all. Thats not stealing, thats just the nature of contested content in my mind. There was nothing to steal. Simply by camping it doesnt mean you own that mob. Now you can take it away from me AFTER I own it and I would call that stealing. But if I get the first hit in thats fair game in my mind. A contest to see who grabs it first, and then win or loose, live or die, reward or no reward you have to live with the consequences. Also If I or my group wipes. Then its back open for grabs. No hard feelings cause its contested content. We tried and failed and at that point I would say it would be selfish of my or my group to bellyache about how its our mob. I dont see any of what I said as being rude, mean spirited or anything like that. This might make my guild and other guilds rivals, but not necessarily enemies. So I definitely disagree with you. This is in no way KSing. On the other hand a group or guild being able to come in and outdamage you after you already took on the challenge is absolutely KSing, and is extremely rude for 1. taking your claim, 2. ruining the challenge that you took on (like interferring in a duel).
Now I know its probably something EQ and XI folks likely cant agree on. But if its some consolation, the EQ way doesnt sound bad if people can follow the ettiquette you hope, and Ill be happy to follow this way. But to me thats a big if.
In terms of rare mob camping or xp grinding, if you or your group gets to a camp spot and nobody is there, it is now your camp. The rare spawn that spawns in that area is now yours. That's how EQ worked. Now, did everyone abide by that? No. But most people did. And in that game, if you were known as a ninja looter or created drama, you generally got blacklisted by the server and booted from your guild. The biggest pricks tended to be in the top guilds, but they were so busy trying to beat top tier content that they seldom had the free time to harass the rest of the server. And even then, those guilds full of pricks still couldn't be total jerks because the other similar tiered guilds would make an alliance and block them from raid mobs. Which, is why, once multiple guilds, even arch enemies in game, got to the same tier of raiding, they mostly worked out a raid schedule between them. Though, I have to say, the race for content between two or three similar tiered guilds were some of the best gaming moments I've ever had, even if they happened at 3am far too often.
Kilsin said:The person who tagged it would be dead in seconds, so no need to worry about them or their guild trying to kite a named mob, especially in one of our dungeons, so far players can't outrun any mob until we tweak it in testing sessions. :)
We will most likely have mechanics to stop people logging into or being summoned to boss/named areas deep in dungeons anyway unless they all cleared down there the day/night before and camped but sometimes it will be about those guilds talking to each other and working something out, sometimes one of the guilds will have to wait until the first guild has an attempt on the mob, it isn't always fun but such is life.
Things like making a /shout or /zone announcements to say that X Guild is clearing down to X Named will be common, then if someone tries to steal the named then both guilds will have something to talk about and work out, hopefully in a mature fashion but not all mobs and named mobs will be free to attack at all times, there will have to be some leniency given plus rosters and discussions with other guilds/players if we are to keep the game as instance free as possible and that is part of the whole open world experience, some of it can be boring or downtime/waiting.
If it's an open world dungeon with a raid mob at the end, just make sure you guys allow for relatively quick repops in the raid oriented areas. If you can't summon up ahead by camping out a player summoning class, and the raid trash mobs respawn relatively timely, so another guild can't just race down an hour after you started clearing, then that should curb the main KS issue. If another guild comes in and has to reclear and still beats you to the mob, well, you're just too slow. If two guilds race down at the same time, hopping each other, then that's just a good ol' race for content and I think whoever does 51% damage gets the loot.
@ Dullahan
XI didnt melt my brain. You just disagree with me.
Real example:
1. You and I enter a ruin and find a diamond, you take the diamond for yourself. Finders keepers. You didnt steal it because nobody had owned it for the last 1500 years.
2. I own a magical amulet. You snatch it and run away. That is stealing.
Its the exact same thing as the first hit/percent damage argument.
And you also want to punish people for creating rivalry in contested content? I understand for things like purposeful trains and ninja looting, but not for what should be natural behavior. Now I would understand the community punishing folks that attack a mob you have already claimed. That would make sense to me.
@ Vandraad
Again I see nothing wrong with that scenario. Why? Contested Content!!! So yes the second raid was more prepared. They were craftier, quicker, and willing to risk it. On the flip side of that is they pulled too soon and wiped before they could get it under control. Now the first raid can swoop in and show them how its done.
Lets see so because KSing will be in the game anyway, lets just ignore it. Isnt that kinda like crime will exist anyway so lets not bother with a police force?
All this being said there is nothing wrong with working things out in a social way among players, but there shouldnt be any animosity toward other players if they want to be your rivals in fair competition instead. Im not saying first tag is perfect but its a damn sight better and not nearly as shady a mechanism as percent damage. But if the devs decide to go with that, I will give it a chance. In a world with community focus and the kind of social scenarios and ettiquette you guys desire. Im sure it could work. But I have to ask what if it doesnt? Im not in this for an "I told you so". Im not that petty. I just want to know what will we do at that late juncture? I trust the devs to make a good game. But I also trust humans to be humans (read: bad).
Mathir said:Kilsin said:The person who tagged it would be dead in seconds, so no need to worry about them or their guild trying to kite a named mob, especially in one of our dungeons, so far players can't outrun any mob until we tweak it in testing sessions. :)
We will most likely have mechanics to stop people logging into or being summoned to boss/named areas deep in dungeons anyway unless they all cleared down there the day/night before and camped but sometimes it will be about those guilds talking to each other and working something out, sometimes one of the guilds will have to wait until the first guild has an attempt on the mob, it isn't always fun but such is life.
Things like making a /shout or /zone announcements to say that X Guild is clearing down to X Named will be common, then if someone tries to steal the named then both guilds will have something to talk about and work out, hopefully in a mature fashion but not all mobs and named mobs will be free to attack at all times, there will have to be some leniency given plus rosters and discussions with other guilds/players if we are to keep the game as instance free as possible and that is part of the whole open world experience, some of it can be boring or downtime/waiting.
If it's an open world dungeon with a raid mob at the end, just make sure you guys allow for relatively quick repops in the raid oriented areas. If you can't summon up ahead by camping out a player summoning class, and the raid trash mobs respawn relatively timely, so another guild can't just race down an hour after you started clearing, then that should curb the main KS issue. If another guild comes in and has to reclear and still beats you to the mob, well, you're just too slow. If two guilds race down at the same time, hopping each other, then that's just a good ol' race for content and I think whoever does 51% damage gets the loot.
Yes, I agree with relatively quick respawns but with lockout timers to prevent the first guild continuing kill after kill locking the mob down and preventing anyone else from killing it, as I have mentioned a few times now but that is my personal opinion, not an official stance. ;)
As all such discussions are about who deserves something, the problem is with quantifying the "deserving" .
When people say KS, they generally mean that a person/group A invested time to reach a target while a person/group B invested nothing and "stole" the target .
The sentiment of unfairness is created by the fact that a time investment (this is the ONLY kind of investment you do in an MMO) is not rewarded and frustration follows .
So what about this idea that has not been implemented in no MMO sofar ?
An individual/group/raid is investing time camping a target . That means that they are killing mobs and/or placeholders in some very well defined geographic area .
Let's imagine that the individual or all members of the group/raid receive a number of merit points for each PH and/or mob killed in this specific geographic area .
The more time they invest and the more they camp, the more merit points they have . Of course logging out or zoning resets all merit points to 0 .
Now the rare named is to be attacked but another individual/group/raid suddenly barges in and wants to kill the rare named to KS the loot .
But as they didn't invest any time on that particular target, they have no merit points .
Then regardless of who attacked first, who did more DPS or who did the killing stroke, the original camping group has more merit points and gets the loot .
Of course I can imagine some exotic cases where this wouldn't perfectly work . But if such a method made impossible 90 % of the standard KSing, then it'd be better to live with 10% of problems rather than 100 %, wouldn't it ?
Kilsin said:Yes, I agree with relatively quick respawns but with lockout timers to prevent the first guild continuing kill after kill locking the mob down and preventing anyone else from killing it, as I have mentioned a few times now but that is my personal opinion, not an official stance. ;)
Yikes. What do you mean by "kill after kill"? I hope you guys go the EQ route where an open world raid mob is on a week (or more) timer. If the thing repops over and over in a few hours, ugh, what a terrible design decision.... You are a small team, limited budget, and this game's target audience is the old school crowd. Making raid mobs rare by putting in a respawn restriction is the cheapest and easiest way to ensure your content lasts a considerable time, something all of us enjoy (chasing the elusive carrot). Plus, it just adds to the achievement concept as the gear is limited on the server due to the spawn rarity, it makes actually killing the raid mob, you know, an achievement. Lock out timers for one guild does nothing to curb item inflation on the server when every other guild can kill the same content on the same day. If you guys do it the way you describe, I hope the loot tables are massive, each individual drop rate is like 1%, and the raid boss drops 2-3 items per kill at most.
Amsai said:@ Dullahan
XI didnt melt my brain. You just disagree with me.
Real example:
1. You and I enter a ruin and find a diamond, you take the diamond for yourself. Finders keepers. You didnt steal it because nobody had owned it for the last 1500 years.
A real example, or more accurate analogy, is you get a plot of land to farm diamonds. Someone then trespasses into your mine, and steals your diamond.
The content is contested not only because someone can steal it, but because every area is up for grabs until someone moves in and occupies it. When you are in an area where your group is doing the work of dispatching all of the mobs, you effectively "own" that area until you leave. If two parties move in on a place at once, both having equal right, then its up for grabs and may the best group win, but moving in on a party knowing they have spent hours clearing it, is a jerk-move any way you look at it.
Amsai said:And you also want to punish people for creating rivalry in contested content? I understand for things like purposeful trains and ninja looting, but not for what should be natural behavior. Now I would understand the community punishing folks that attack a mob you have already claimed. That would make sense to me.
You are picking and choosing your game ethics. If its okay to move in on a group farming a particular area for hours and steal their mobs, in what world is it not okay to just train them out? That's called situational ethics. The culture of XI really did distort your thinking. Its not a matter of simply disagreement, you are advocating complete anarchy. My suggestion is some disorder is okay, but be prepared to pay the consequences. On the server I'll be on, the consequences will be death.
Funny thing about PvP too. As much as people complain about "griefing", we had much more law and order because there were direct and immediate repercussions for such transgressions. On a PvE server, its really pretty cowardly to disregard a groups claim to an area without any way for them to fight you for it. Without respect of other players, everything becomes a free for all, every man for themselves and a bitter, hostile environment that will poison the community.
Deadshade said:So what about this idea that has not been implemented in no MMO sofar ?
An individual/group/raid is investing time camping a target . That means that they are killing mobs and/or placeholders in some very well defined geographic area .
Let's imagine that the individual or all members of the group/raid receive a number of merit points for each PH and/or mob killed in this specific geographic area .
The more time they invest and the more they camp, the more merit points they have . Of course logging out or zoning resets all merit points to 0 .
Now the rare named is to be attacked but another individual/group/raid suddenly barges in and wants to kill the rare named to KS the loot .
But as they didn't invest any time on that particular target, they have no merit points .
Then regardless of who attacked first, who did more DPS or who did the killing stroke, the original camping group has more merit points and gets the loot .
Of course I can imagine some exotic cases where this wouldn't perfectly work . But if such a method made impossible 90 % of the standard KSing, then it'd be better to live with 10% of problems rather than 100 %, wouldn't it ?
This is an interesting idea. To translate it to mechanics, perhaps every dispatched mob gives you .1% merit in an area of 20 meters. After hours of killing in a particular area, you build up to maybe a maximum of 90% loot merit in the area you are camping. That would mean your party would only need to do 10% of the damage to a mob that spawns in that area to get loot credit. To prevent exploitation, the experience for killing a mob should should remain the party that does 51% damage should someone kill one of your mobs, but they would not be able to loot it.
Would be a pain in the ass to find a way not to exploit it though. Maybe once a party step outside of the area or logs out for over 10 minutes. Still could be used to grief if not coded carefully.
Your land deed is the fact that your group is there and all the surrounding mobs are dead or dying. It not exactly a mystery whether someone is occupying an area.
Contested content means that people compete for limited resources, not total anarchy. Sometimes it means waiting, sometimes negotiating, sometimes collaborating, and other times, directly competing when justified. Moving straight to stealing a mob other players spent hours hunting is stealing the fruit of their labor.
Part of the difference in your point of view may also be due to the fact that in XI, many NM were static spawns on static timers. Meaning players clearing "place holders" or surrounding areas had no real bearing on the NM itself. In EQ though, doing that work was necessary so people took offense when hours of work were stolen from them.
Amsai said: I'd rather they greatly reduce drop rates than greatly reduce spawn times. There needs to be down time but I don't think that should mean weekly spawn timers. At worst I'd say 6 hour spawns or so.
6 Hours for a Raid mob? Hardcore guilds will clear that four times per day. The entire guild would be geared out within a month, especially if all raid mobs are on that low of a timer. If it's a week timer or so, then that's roughly 4 kills per month for a guild. If they want to allow the mob to repop every 6 hours, but put a week lockout on those involved in a kill, that could work. If they go that route, I hope they still have some open world raid mobs on a pure 7 - 10 day random timer so we can have some rush to content and open competition. I think a mix of those ideas would be best. I know some of my fondest (and worst) memories were the late night races to a raid mob that just popped after a week. Sometimes we steamrolled the other guild(s) trying to get there, sometimes they steamrolled us. Either way, it was ultra intense and the feeling of success when beating another guild to the mob and then defeating it in front of them was amazing. PvE'ers don't have to be treated with kid gloves (instanced content, raid lockout timers, etc...), a part of me really hopes they just completely copy EQ1's raiding structure, at least from Kunark through PoP, I loved all of it. It's not casual friendly however.
WoW did a nice job early on mixing both concepts. The best raid mobs were the open world dragons/Kazzak on weekly timers which the elite guilds raced for, while the weekly instanced raid zones (MC/BWL) were more than enough for non-elite guilds building up their strength, and they were convenient for scheduling purposes as well. This is probably the best middle ground area, and if this is what they are doing, I'm fine with that approach as well. Weekly lockouts/repops are the key to me though because it guarantees 1 or 2 instanced raid zones plus a handful of open world raid mobs will be more than enough content for 95% of the playerbase for quite some time, especially if the raids are challenging.
As for normal group mobs and general rare spawn camping, I greatly enjoy the traditional kill "X" place holder mob when it pops every "Y" minutes (20?), and there's a 5% chance the rare spawns next repop, with a 10% chance he drops his best loot. That right there, something ultra simple, creates a massive amount of timesink/content for many players. I hope they have that.
Could always lock out a mob and have faster respawn then lock out so you dont have 1 guild ruling all the content. Gives somone else a chance to do it as well. Content is already going to be tuff why make getting a chance to do it tuff as well. At the end of the day it Is a game an ment to be fun not a headache.
I'm not a level designer but I don't think "camping" is something you either add or not add into a game. It's a by-product of level design.
If you have a bunch of long narrow corridors with no respawn or every long respawn, you could say that design would discourage camping.
If the dungeons are smaller with more, larger open rooms, I think camping could happen more.
I prefer camping in dungeons. I think having to constantly stay moving is distracting from playing well. I didn’t like that aspect of Vanguard. Therefore, as a player I would gravitate towards dungeons with more open areas.