I am also for being stuck with the choices you make, though it may seem harsh to some. Eventually I think there will be the best race/class combo's posted on websites etc, but I imagine that will be down the road. It will be nice to be able to start out fresh and see how things work. The reroll or adjustment once per character could also work, I think that if they have to change a class drastically then they should offer something like that. I played a Coercer in EQ2, loved it. Then they made some of our abilities just not work in game, and never gave us anything to compensate for it, at least while I was playing. I like your disclaimer :)
I think there should be the ability to reset skills or traits or what have you, but it should take time.
The first MMO I ever played was Asheron's Call. You could learn whatever you wanted really. No classes or anything like that. When you leveled up, you got skill points to learn new skills. If you chose poorly, you had to do this rather lengthy quest to discover the Temple of Forgetfulness and remove that skill. And the quest chain worked one at a time. So if you wanna reset your character entirely and go from specializing in magic to a sword-fencer? Expect to spend an entire day on forgetting your magic skills.
I'd like something similar (obviously it would be different since Pantheon does have classes). You can retrain your traits/AAs, but it would be a long journey that you would remember. I'm not a fan of being able to simple buy an item to reset all your stats.
I have seen games where you have all these skill tree's, but the actual result of your choice isn't clear until you've made that choice, and begin using it. That is one of my dislikes of skill trees.
As for initial stats, it think one should be stuck with their choice, and if you messed up your STR stat in creation, find some gear to overcome it.
If it takes 50 days of play time to reach max level @ launch, then I would prefer to have some kind of reset ability, in whatever form, either quest or just talk to the guildmaster and pay.
If it takes 50 hours of play time to reach max level @ launch, then I could live without it. :)
If it's between 50 hours and 50 days... my opinion will change. hehehe.
IMO, as combat changes are going to be ongoing and inevitable, it only encourages players to stick with the game if they get a 'do-over' when an ability is fundamentally, drastically, or completely changed, balanced, adjusted or 'nerfed'. It also makes it easier for the developers and designers to implement those changes if they know players will adapt without undue pain.
In EQ2, for example, significant combat changes happened years after launch that fundamentally changed certain classes. And arguably, by the numbers, made other classes superfluous, as what they were "best at" they were no longer best at, and some other class did it far better/cheaper/faster/whatever. Why bring one of each class when a class defining ability is moved to another class?
When you can mathematically demonstrate such things via the client side log file, what is the path forward for those players? Rely on the charity of others? Sure, if you have good friends, they'll carry you along because of your sparkling personality, but when you know another class now performs your role, it's a real punch to the stomach. Raid & group leaders have difficult choices to make, and often, efficiency is part of that decision.
Now, some overlap in role is fine, but what they've described as " Iconic Abilities " should never be shared if class uniqueness is to be preserved, and it seems like that's a design goal that won't change. What I mean by that is sure, an Enchanter can mez, and maybe a Rogue can sap, but it seems reasonable that unless a Rogue makes sacrifices to the effectiveness of their primary role of damage, they would always be secondary in their role as CC when compared to damage. As a simple example, maybe a Rogue can sap a single target, and never more than one, but an Enchanter can always mez many targets. They both fulfill the role, technically, of crowd control but the Enchanter is far better at it and has far more tools in his Ability Arsenal related to his role.
Fulton said:I have seen games where you have all these skill tree's, but the actual result of your choice isn't clear until you've made that choice, and begin using it. That is one of my dislikes of skill trees.
As for initial stats, it think one should be stuck with their choice, and if you messed up your STR stat in creation, find some gear to overcome it.
Then there's the other extreme, the MMO I'm in right now: Final Fantasy 14. There are no skill trees, no differentiation within classes, no real difference between the races, no nothing. At cap (and along the way) everyone in a class/job is exactly the same.
That MMO is a very well designed game with massive developer support of the kind of MMO I'm tired of. Well populated, but lonely. Often toxic player community due to most groups being put together by a multi-world anonymous duty finder. And everything is on rails. It sometimes feels like dying of thirst while submerged in water.
When dealing with EQ1 style AAs or any type of AA/mastery/talent that is unlimited, the problem is simple. If someone does not get the "correct" AAs, they can simply farm some more experience and level the "correct" ones up.
The issue comes from talents (like WoW) or class mastery that are limited and/or are aquired only at set intervals (i.e. once per level). The issue here is that if someone makes a mistake, it may be very difficult or even impossible to change. For those that are simply min/maxing or trying to adapt to the 'newest' wave of nerfs, I don't really have a lot of sympathy. However, for those that meant to make a certain type of character (i.e. stealthy ranger, arcane fire mage, protection aura paladin) and instead end up with something different because the choices were confusing, pathetic, or obtuse... there needs to be a way to help these people.
My personal feel is: Let everyone re-spec every 4 real life months. If you re-spec, the timer starts such that you can re-spec again in 4 months. That way, people can get to know your character and who they are (RP), you do have to live with your choices, but a mistake will not stay with you forever. Hey, even in real life, people change. It just just doesn't tend to happen often or quickly.
Choices must have consequences. Good or bad. The only time in anygame I've played where I've second-guessed myself was in applying those first initial points into your stats. Everything into one, the min/max approach? Or the balanced, spread-them-out choice. From then on it choices were just about which item should go into which slot as I built my character over time. Which weapon skill to I use most? Should I bother to train them all? How often do I use 2HB vs 1HS? In the end, they were all at their cap.
Over time,in the long-game, no matter what choices you made years ago will have little to no effect years later. Only those games where you had 'talent trees', like Rift, could you truly gimp your character. I do not see Pantheon taking that route at all.
I prefer not allowing players to "reroll" unless it's tied to some type of lore/storyline/roleplaying reason.
If it's just going to a guy, clicking buttons and spending gold then absolutely NO.
There should be some level of thought and commitment made to characters. Rerolling encourages min/maxing which I do not care for.
I think it depends on how the game is setup. Take Rift as an extreme example. Mixing and matching different trees nets wildly different results. A plate wearer can be a caster, healer, melee, or tank, and do all 4 effectively depending on talent choice. In a system like this, it's almost essential that one be able to adjust, experiment, and change these various builds. In FFXI these days they have a, sortof, AA system, but it doesn't change what the parent class does. It simply alters various chosen aspects of that class. In this situation, not allowing resets would be fine, but you have to consider nerfs and changes to the class. To expand on that system (if I'm remembering correctly) you gain a point by allocating a portion of your XP, or all of it at max level. When you have enough XP built up, you gain a point. Once you spend those points, they are gone for good. You can always gain more, and change your build, but resetting won't gain your spent points back. The result is that making changes are meaningful, and basically take care of themselves naturally by playing the game unless you frequently make changes.
Basically, I'm cool with permanent choices as long as the points are plentiful and don't offer role changing abilities. If we get 1 point per level, and have to spend them accordingly, then those 50 points become far too valuable (especially when you add in powerful new abilities from points) to not offer a reset of some kind. Rerolling at 45 because I fat-fingered a point or because that line of talents got nerfed hard is pretty disheartening.
I'm not sure how things gonna work out... but if its like EQ (Where you could only master a few things and the limit for the other skills would be lower, as it was for the different spellcasting 'schools' for example)...
Then I would like the possibility to reset (if I remember correct you could reset in EQ by doing a quest in Sol Ro). But... with the cost of loosing all those points and having to regain them from the start.
So if you can, for example, cap all casting schools at 100 and take 1 or 2 to 255... Then Id like a reset to drop that mastered skill (255) back to 100, so you can pick a new school to master.
Not sure if we will have a skilltree or AA like system... but Id like the same solution there. Yes you can reset... but you will loose all points and have to regain them instead of being able to reassign them.
You should have the possibility to change builds. But it shouldnt be something you can do 'on the fly. We dont want Jack of All trades do we? (being able to switch builds easily will cause this imo).
bigdogchris said:I prefer not allowing players to "reroll" unless it's tied to some type of lore/storyline/roleplaying reason.
City of Heroes had characters perform a 'trial' (a quest of sorts) that had roleplay connotations associated with it to get a respec token. From memory, you could only do this 2-3 times per character.
If Pantheon goes down the respec path, this is how I would like to see things done. A roleplay catalyst leading into a pretty tough quest that gives each character a limited number of respecs.
Yes to skill reset quests like the specialisation reset for casters in Temple of Solusek Ro. But only for such skills, where you actually have a choice and might otherwise be stuck with an inferior character.
Then again, in this time the specialisation skill should be done entirely differently. In EQ, not only were you not informed that the "first spec skill to go beyond 50 points" would become your specialisation (at least, I think there was no in-game information for that). Also, you had to manually care to get your desired skill over 50, and not one other skill. Instead, you should be able to simply tell the game "Make this my specialisation!" and it would automatically lock the other skills at 50.
For AA systems, it depends: If you have a system as in EQ, where you could eventually get all skills, there is no real need for a reset. A reset is just for convenience incase you choose the "wrong" skills first. In systems where your AA points are limited however, there MUST be a reset option IMO.
I think this would only be needed for the AA trees. I also believe that resetting the tree should be limited somehow. Or made increasingly more difficult.
Put a special AA reset option in the dialogue of class trainers.
First time is free. Then each time after that is increasingly more expensive.
Wobels said: My question is will we have the ability to reroll stuff later on as some skills and talents become useless to better our dps/tank/healing? Or will we be stuck with the choices we made? Im for being stuck with the choices and being forced to reroll if i messed up. or maybe limiting a reroll to 1 per life of the toon. idk something really harsh it forces people to develop their way to play their toon instead of looking up a website for say "max dps build". I dunno whats yalls thoughts? Disclaimer : I looked around for a topic on this im sure there is one, but there is no search or atleast I couldnt find it on my cell phone.
I would prefer the the ability to reroll stuff, asuuming the game is done in such a way that you have to make a choice. What I mean is in EQ for example and as another poster stated if you spent aa's you didnt' want to, then just grind more and grab the ones you did. However should the game be built more like EQ2, then to me it would be good to be able to reroll. Lots of people like to experiment with different builds and how those builds work in the real world.
ladyshaiana said:IMHO, first change should be free.
After that, perhaps a quest line of some sort to change again?
Make you think a bit more if things are a bit harder to change, and not able to be done on the fly.
Agreed. While I support the idea of beign able to change I feel that care and planning should be involved. If you decide to change agian, more care and planning, perhaps a quest of some sorts or some other way. I think I would be ok with doing it on the fly if let's say you did some sort of quest or whatnot to get the change and were given a single use "spell of change" shall we call it to use when you wish.