How much of an epic quest should be soloable... Fred reminded me of his time camping a spawn solo. Should it be a group thing, solo, or a combo? add...sholud Keys for area be the same...ala Vex thall?
A mix. I enjoyed having some soloable camps and puzzles to work on during limited play sessions or if I was just feeling anti-social that day. To me, when you have a group-centric leveling game, you have to make sure you have some solo time sinks sprinkled in with crafting, questing, house decorating, etc....
And I enjoyed the "keying" aspect of EQ. I had no problem with how Vex Thal keying worked. And I liked that it seperated the hard core guilds from the casuals. Same thing with Ssra Temple (Emperor and Bane) to a lesser degree.
A. EPICS
Epic quests (ie 'Epic' class weapons/equipment as per EQ1) should be:
12 parts Solo (make up 25% of time) (Need 6 items from 12 variations)
These are predominantly 'strarter' pieces for each of, say, the 4 'main strands'
Can include crafted components (can be crafted by another)
They would also be the parts where you combine pieces and strands.
8 parts Group (Make up 50% of time) (Need 8 items from 16 variations)
These would be mid-point drops, typically from non-raid dungeons. Typically Stage 1or 2
4 parts Raid (Make up 25% of time) (Need 4 items from 12 variations)
There would be for larger pieces of main quest lines. Typically stage 2 or 3.
Break-down into 3 tiers.
TIER 1 Strand-1 Strand-2 Strand-3 Strand-4
TIER 2 <---- Combine ----> <---- Combine ---->
Plait-A Plait-B
TIER-3 <------ Combine ------>
Story-Line
1. As per EQ1 Epic quests, all 4 strands of TIER-1 can be started simultaneously, even (if you know in advance via guides) some of Plait A+B.
2. Each STRAND. and later PLAIT. have items needed. These items are picked from a set of variations. This means each EPIC follows the same overall pattern, have equal 'difficulty' to obtain, but would have (potentially) a different set of drops required to be gained (from a certain maximum nuber of variations). This would reduce the ability of people to 'read the website, grab all the drops and never read the NPC text instructions, just click next, next, next).
3. There should be 'individual input' offered at a few points (Eg the points where strand-1 and strand-2 are combined). This player input should particularly be in the area of, perhaps, 'look' of the finished product.
Eg, the Wizzy epic item may be, perhaps, a Rod, Staff or Wand. The 3 'relic gems' it has incorporated may be any three chosen from the 'mana colours' available.
Eg Rogue Epic may be a choice between LongSword +Dagger, 2 Daggers or a Ninjato(+Tanto).
Parts would need to be combined into some crafted pieces, not all of which have equal level of mastery to craft. Choosing a Rod over a staff/Wand would mean you have to *find* a Rod crafter of high enough ability to craft the component about to be enchanted.
4. The overall end-product item should be 'similar' for a given class, such that it is 'obvious' to anyone it is spoecial and 'fairly obvious' for those in the know which variation it is. So a Rogue Epic might be a LongSword+Dagger, 2 Daggers, or even (oriental) Ninjato. Once variant may offer better BackStab, one extra Bleeds, and the last better Pioson. All may pulse a Black glow, followed by a pulse which would be either Black (+Backstab), Red (+Bleeds) or Green (+Poison) then back to the Black pulse etc.
B. ACCESS KEYS
Will think about this and come back to it later :)
Someone else was channeling Fred...thank you Evoras. the string is strong with you, more comments that please Fred... great ideas keep them flowing...like water in a brook that becomes an ocean.
Personnally I would like to be able to start and acheive most of it (50%+) solo. This should give me something useable in a certain degree - i.e a "lowered" versioned of the epic. The group / raid portion of it should be to upgrade it to a certain point.
I know these epic weapon quest line is often associated with hardcore / high end raiding, but it's still fun to work on a long and difficult quest even if you don't have time or the will to be part of an high end guild.
Make it so it feels like an "Epic Quest"
Rare spawns for group content and a final battle that requires a raid.
This is a social game the will require teamwork right?
darcius said:Personnally I would like to be able to start and acheive most of it (50%+) solo. This should give me something useable in a certain degree - i.e a "lowered" versioned of the epic. The group / raid portion of it should be to upgrade it to a certain point.
I know these epic weapon quest line is often associated with hardcore / high end raiding, but it's still fun to work on a long and difficult quest even if you don't have time or the will to be part of an high end guild.
That wouldnt be an epic quest - that should be called something else.
I get that people dont have the time and or desire to put in the effort some of these things require but that in no way means that portion of the game should change to satisfy those players. If you cant or dont want to put in the time to earn said gear - sorry. Now with that said there should be other things in the game to fill those gaps like what you mentioned you enjoy - just dont expect it to be inline or even close with true epic/raid gear.
Very little. Perhaps some of hte footwork/story could be done solo such as go read some book to learn some lore or using the preception system in the great library to find clues etc. Perhaps some crafting/gathering work if any needs done such as the quest require a base weapon as the main compantant to embue it with magic. Well the crafting of the weapon could be solo if they are a blacksmith and could go gather what they needed to get the base weapon ready before needing a group/raid to finish the embuing process.
A good example of this is the Shadowmourne quest in Warcraft. There some some soloable elements in the beginning of hte quest but the majority of it required a raid. See the steps below:
http://www.wowhead.com/guide=503/shadowmourne-a-guide-to-the-creation-of-frostmournes-sister-blade
I like a large part of it to be soloable.. it gives you a task to do while your friends are not online, or if you want to break from the usual 'grind'. I dont like when the soloable part requires you to have a high level tradeskill though. The soloable part should be mostly traveling the lands to gather 'ground spawns, talk to NPCs, or solo enemies which should be killable solo by that class at the reccommended level.
I would say 30-50% solo, 30-50% groupable, and ~10% raid.. I think more than two raid encounters is too much. Also, the item should drop 100% of the time off raid encounter. Great community or not.. farming a raid encounter which has little benefit for 90% of the raid force is going to burn people out.
I mostly like Evoras' example. Preferably there would be some running around/solo type stuff in the middle parts too. My reasoning behind this is that it gives players something to do when they have a short amount of time and certainly adds to the number of lore expansion opportunities. One of the big things about Pant is getting back to the group aspect, but as many people have said, it's nice to have parts of the game that can be done solo (not exp grinding of course unless kiting or whatever) for when you don't have a lot of time or are waiting for people to logon.
Epic quests seemed epic to me based on their intricate story and mostly the length of the quest. Yes, a quest that requires a raid certainly contains epic parts, but that does not make the quest itself epic in my opinion.
The scenario I put forwards would require:
1. only 25% is Raid
2. 75% is 'standard' group or solo including
3. Crafting (can be done by others) and
4. research (done by yourself, perhaps with help)
I do think for an 'Epic' item, there should be a non insignificant ammount that needs more than 1 group (some may be 2 groups, some full blown raids). It should also require research of some kind, perhaps investigation and certainly some crafting to build the components (even if an NPC does enchant the thing at the end).
Eg for parts 3 and 4 for Summoner Epic (since i plan on playing one)
This Epic could be (like the EQ1 Epic) about creating and enchanting a Rod, Sceptre or Sword that allows you to summon a more powerful version of the standard 'pet'. BUT with a significant difference from the 'Mage Epic for EQ1'.
One of the 4 parts for the Epic will be about the 'form' of item itself (whether Rod, Sceptre or Sword)
Here the epic would require you to create the template using crafting skills (done with crafter)
One of the 4 parts for the Epic will be about the form of the Summoned pet.
Here the epic would require you to research a method of creating the 'Essence' of a creature. To do this you learn and practice the skill. It takes any drop from a creature (that neames the creature, eg 'wolf pelt', 'giant spider leg') and allows you to transform it into an Essence of 'name-creature' instead. Eg convert a 'giant spider leg' into a 'Essence of giant spider'. You would need to create, say, 250 of these of your chosen creature. This essence is then used later in the quest to create the 'pet form template'.
This would mean that while your epic may look the same as many other Summoners, the pet it calls will look like the creature you 'copied'. Only difference (maybe) would be it would have 'fire pet', 'water pet', special 'epic pet' etc textures instead of the actual creature textures.
This is the kind of 'innovation' I hope VR may contemplate. You only need create ONE meta-epic-quest for the Summoner, but it allows for at least 3 variations in 'look' (could be more if different materials /gems are allowed, not just the weapon type) and 100's of variations in 'pet look'.
Hope this makes sense.
The weapon type/look is an interesting concept. Are you thinking (at a very base level) of the EQ1 warrior epic? I certainly enjoyed the fact that they could be a 2h or two 1h thus giving you some freedom in how they were used based on the situation. Or in your example are you thinking of a static choice made during the quest? I really like that as well where you'd have to choose say if you have a 1h and an off-hand or if at a stage in the quest you decided to have an NPC combine them into a single 2h weapon. In this situation I think it should be a static choice where you have to put some thought into it. If end-game raiding is involved for final steps you might have some sort of idea to what items drop from bosses (or all the info is already out by the time you're at this point) to assist in your decision.
I plan on having a shaman main and I would have to think ahead to what drops there are and decide if a 1H + OH or 2h would be of more benefit to me later on, especially if they have different epic abilities.
As new expansions and more powerful items are available, I hope the epic quests are added to so you may complete more difficult challenges to evolve your items into a stronger 'modern' form.
After 10 expansions, I could see these items becoming more and more epic and rare because of the length and difficulty to attain.
My idea was for you to make choices as you progressed through the Epic quest.
For the Warrior Epic, say, you may have the choice of 1H+OH or 2HND. Even the choice of what 1H and OH might be could be chosen. You might go for Axe + ShortSword. this ould be the part that would involve crafting. You *might* want to do LongSword+Mace only to not find anyone who has the appropriate 'mace template' needed to smith it - or indeed the componnnets/skills etc. Now you have to choose.... do I wait for somebody to find the template I need and learn it (plus practice), then give them the mats and pay to have it made... or do I opt for LongSword and ShortSword as I know the Master Smith 'Tanwedar' *can* make one of those!
This means that no 2 Epics will be 'cookie cutter' identical, though very similar in nature (same sort of sparklies - though again not necessarily identical).
Evoras said:3. There should be 'individual input' offered at a few points (Eg the points where strand-1 and strand-2 are combined). This player input should particularly be in the area of, perhaps, 'look' of the finished product.
Eg, the Wizzy epic item may be, perhaps, a Rod, Staff or Wand. The 3 'relic gems' it has incorporated may be any three chosen from the 'mana colours' available.
Eg Rogue Epic may be a choice between LongSword +Dagger, 2 Daggers or a Ninjato(+Tanto).
Parts would need to be combined into some crafted pieces, not all of which have equal level of mastery to craft. Choosing a Rod over a staff/Wand would mean you have to *find* a Rod crafter of high enough ability to craft the component about to be enchanted.
4. The overall end-product item should be 'similar' for a given class, such that it is 'obvious' to anyone it is spoecial and 'fairly obvious' for those in the know which variation it is. So a Rogue Epic might be a LongSword+Dagger, 2 Daggers, or even (oriental) Ninjato. Once variant may offer better BackStab, one extra Bleeds, and the last better Pioson. All may pulse a Black glow, followed by a pulse which would be either Black (+Backstab), Red (+Bleeds) or Green (+Poison) then back to the Black pulse etc.
I do like the idea that players of a Class may not have the same focus as each other. So if there is leeway for (small) alterations in the effects of the Epic, then perhaps they players should be allowed to use that leeway to move the focus a little towards their chosen area of focus.
PS As far as Raid_Boss drops go, I do think that 99% of them should be components or recipes. Actual armour/weapons should be few and far between. They should drop Dragon Scales, Hide, Teeth, Blood etc and *these* are needed for more powerful quests and spells. You could even have Books as drops (or even just Pages). Combine to make a book and then spend (1000 divided by your INT, say) hours 'reading' before you learn the new spell, or recipe etc.
^^ problem with raid boss dropping "Dragon Scales, Hide, Teeth, Blood etc", is that until the final item is discovered many of these items will go to classes who cannot use the final item or do not need the final item. Such items need to be tradeable or have a 'link' to the final item/stats. I'm all for hard games where you gotta discover the world and items, but extremes are not fun.
Sabatour said:That wouldnt be an epic quest - that should be called something else.
I don't know, I guess we simply doesn't agree on the term "epic quest". For me, Epic quest mean a personnal achievement. Something YOU worked really hard to get. So I fail to see why an epic would require to kill the strongest raid mob in the game. I see it a bit more like some other people posted that it's a item that the character kinda "craft" for himself by gathering / completing a tons tasks. I wouldn't mind camping weeks and weeks for ingrediants, components or NPCs.
I also don't know how much more effort it represent for the player to defeat a raid boss with 40 people vs work hard on gathering things by himself. When I completed my epic in EQ, I can say that, the raiding part was actually the easiest parts of all.
Now, I do not know if this should item should (or should not much) the high-end raiding gear, and that's why I think it should be possible to upgrade it extra quests line where you need to actually defeat raid boss. Like someone already posted, it would be nice to allow the epic quest always "evolve" and keep updating it for new expension / new zone / new raids and such.
Defector said:^^ problem with raid boss dropping "Dragon Scales, Hide, Teeth, Blood etc", is that until the final item is discovered many of these items will go to classes who cannot use the final item or do not need the final item. Such items need to be tradeable or have a 'link' to the final item/stats. I'm all for hard games where you gotta discover the world and items, but extremes are not fun.
Completely agree.
My 'world View' would be that 'Player crafting' would make up the majority of weapons/armour. This way the drops from the Dragons etc would all be tradeable - and even if *not* tradeable would be 'multi-craftable'. Think of this as an extension of 'multi-questing' hand-ins. You could easily make it that Grouped Players can access an 'open tradeskill window' to add components - they wouldn't need to all come from the one player.Thus all Raids would be profitable
PS rather than go the route 'We want Player-A to take part in the Raid to get his ietm drop for his epic, so we make it no-drop' would it not be better for the Epic Quest to say .....
'... now that you have combined the 250 Spirit Essences into the Totem of your choice, you have produced a Raw Summoner Totem (no-drop). However, this will need to be imbued with the power of a Red Dragon. To do this, you will need to travel to a far off land to the South where, under the blasted mountain, you will find the lair of Incineratorix (or any other Red Dragon of equal power).
To imbue with the dragon's power merely needs nothing more than for you to completely immerse the totem inside the dragon's still warm body. 8-10 minutes at Gas Mark 5 should do it...'
This would force the Epic Player to be in the Raid, but would *not* require any particular 'loot drop' whether rare or otherwise, no-drop or otherwise.
Of course there *might* be a problem if the corpses only takes 15 mins too cool. Might only be possible for 1-2 players to do the above in the time... if they don't hang about too long!
This is a great question and brings back so many memories. When the epics first came out in EQ I was playing an enchanter and immediately set to work. It was an immense amount of work, but the Enchanter epic was pretty easy in comparison to some of the others, and with the guilds help it wasn't terribly difficult at all. I later switched to a Cleric - and the backlog/competition over the Nagafen piece I think it was, was daunting. I never bothered with any of it until it was changed to make it much less difficult over a year after they were out if memory serves.
I give this background solely to say that:
1. All epics should be of commensurate difficulty. I realize its probably pretty hard to balance something like this, but in EQ there was a vast difference in difficulty level for the epics. My memories are much less vivid about VG, but it seems to me my Warrior armor set was pretty damn easy to get too - while other people complained a lot about their particular pieces.
2. Ridiculous bottlenecks should not exist. Anyone should be able to get their epic through teamwork, hard work, and lots of time spent farming - without waiting for 3 months in a server line.
Keying. I had a love/hate relationship with the keys in luclin. The farm seemed so daunting at first - the pieces you needed to get that VT key oh man. But thinking back on it now, I realize some of the best times I had in the game were with friends in these small farm groups/camps. Lots of downtime usually, boring farms mostly, lots of time to chat and laugh. Many many late nights spent cracking up with friends and have a beer or 8. I actually met my wife on a Ssra emp raid at 3 in the morning where we both tagged along with another guild just to get the VT key piece. Luclin had a ton of problems with design in general (every mob had 10000000 HP and ridiculous dmg mitigation) but PoP OTOH was the pinnacle of my time in EQ. Everything about that expansion was just perfect. I loved the zone progression (keying) and all the raids.
Life has moved on now though and so have my 20's. I can't play like that anymore, but I certainly wouldn't want anyone playing Pantheon to miss out on that amazing feeling of accomplishment after completing something like the VT key or an epic. Make it hard, make it for the few and the devoted, the casuals will have plenty to keep occupied if you build the world right.
I think the begining quests of the Epic quest line should be solo-able because it acts like a confidence booster.
Then progress gradually form there. I dont mind the uncommon-random drop rate for middle pieces, partly because it creates a motivation as a place to go when you dont know where to go on a given day. No groups? can PuG in zone X and hope the thing drops. I think the final piece should be a small raid or groupable mini boss- butt only at a higher level and level-restricted ( so you could not get a zerg of 30's together and gank the 50 mob for the epic piece)
Are epics something that should be eventually obtainable by a player who has enough time and a skilled group or should there be limiting factors like belonging to a raid guild?
Even if some of it is solo able, that won't be the limiting factor so you could have a good mix of soloing, grouping and raiding.
Epics should be a pinnacle and the effort should reflect that otherwise everyone will be running around with them. I agree with Evoras' take mostly. I also think tradeskillers should be heavily involved.
If the quest for an epic is, well epic, then I think there should be some carrots or easter eggs to be had along the way as well; a peice of armor, a trinket, a jewlery item should be gotten for getting through chunks of content. These would not be epic items but slightly better than what might normally drop at that level.
I think the Epic should be about 80 percent solo and 20 percent group content, It should take in Tradeskills, problem solving , Learning at least one language, and few solo quests that will prove yourself as able to fully play your class.
It should require a journey that encompasses most of the known world in search of knowledge and components both rare and unknown but to a few.
It should involve at least one ethical dilemma.
It should leave you as a very skilled and educated entity in the world of Terminus and only then will you have all that you will need to complete the Epic. I think it should span levels 20-25 ish to 45- 50 ish, and be a very very big deal if you are walking around with your epic reward. You would have to depend more on yourself and your knowledge and skills to complete this quest instead of leaning on the guild to run people thru like we did in EQ. Not that it was easy, but many people were hand held through most of the process and other than the reward it didn't seem too epic; other than some of the epic waits for something to spawn.
Just my opinion.
OakKnower said:Epics should be a pinnacle and the effort should reflect that otherwise everyone will be running around with them. I agree with Evoras' take mostly. I also think tradeskillers should be heavily involved.
If the quest for an epic is, well epic, then I think there should be some carrots or easter eggs to be had along the way as well; a peice of armor, a trinket, a jewlery item should be gotten for getting through chunks of content. These would not be epic items but slightly better than what might normally drop at that level.
/agree :)