Skycaster said:It should take in Tradeskills, problem solving , Learning at least one language, and few solo quests that will prove yourself as able to fully play your class.
It should require a journey that encompasses most of the known world in search of knowledge and components both rare and unknown but to a few.
It should involve at least one ethical dilemma.
It should leave you as a very skilled and educated entity in the world of Terminus and only then will you have all that you will need to complete the Epic.
I like these ideas especially the ethical delimma. One thing I likes about the Fallout3 game was how very grey the choices were, it was the lesser of the good response or the better of the bad response, in other words I wanted to reply one way, but I was limited in how I could reply by the tennants of the questline, I had to choose the "bad" way in some cases.
Also with having to travel to far places in pursuit of your epic provides grouping opportunities because you and a stranger may need to head to the same dungeon or place for seperate things, but if you are both their for your epics I would be prone to work together with the stranger until they got theirs and likewise I hope theya re also inclides ot stick around until I got mine- be the initial 2 of a group for any who are LFG.
And tradeskills would be like the liberal arts requirement in a good college or university. You do not become a master, but you are well rounded in tradeskills by the time you have finished your epic- you have a good core skill-set accross all trades.
Is it possible that certain epic weapons would be able to draw off of mana tides depending on the "ethical dilemma" you stated? We already know mana tides are going to be in the world, but if an epic weapon can draw from it in addition to your talismans...you choose a dark path then you get more warlike results, choose the good path then more group beneficial? another way to customize your epic to your playstyle.
Grimvalor said:Is it possible that certain epic weapons would be able to draw off of mana tides depending on the "ethical dilemma" you stated? We already know mana tides are going to be in the world, but if an epic weapon can draw from it in addition to your talismans...you choose a dark path then you get more warlike results, choose the good path then more group beneficial? another way to customize your epic to your playstyle.
That is an excellent idea Grim.
Grimvalor said:Is it possible that certain epic weapons would be able to draw off of mana tides depending on the "ethical dilemma" you stated? We already know mana tides are going to be in the world, but if an epic weapon can draw from it in addition to your talismans...you choose a dark path then you get more warlike results, choose the good path then more group beneficial? another way to customize your epic to your playstyle.
Epic's wouldnt need to be a weapon, it could be something that is different depending on class and at different stages changes from one slot to the next. When new content is created it continues the Epic Quest Line and never truly ends. I like the idea your choices will have an effect on it at each stage and kind of customize it to each player.
A quest is a story, after all, and it should be treated as such. The story is the Hero's Journey. For those who are fans of Joseph Campbell like I am will know what I'm talking about. All our quests, especially the epics, should follow this storyline because it is the storyline of all the great myths, all the great stories that you enjoy reading (or watching) over and over again though each wears the illusion of being a different story.
If you follow the storyline of the Hero's Journey, you see that in the eary parts of the story it is the Hero struggling to accept the notion that he is somehow different and that only he can undergo this journey. This represents, in Pantheon, all the quite subtle apparently disconnected solo-able parts we can undertake.
You then meet your mentor, the being who finally sets you on your path, the central quest giver. Even reaching this character is a quest in and of itself though not a directly related quest but is the outcome of something thought to be completely unrelated.
It is from this point that you start needing your allies so your group and raid content begins here.
At the peak of the quest (not the end) it is solely up to the hero to undertake that last step, perform that life-or-death task necessary to prove the committment of the hero. This tasks (or series of tasks) are where you are solo once again, where you need to bring forth all your class abilities, skills and knowledge of the game to succeed. Pass or Fail point right here. Fail? Start from zero.
You pass the last set of trials and you claim your reward, returning to your home bringing all the boons and benefits of your new-found powers.
My vote would be for the whole epic be soloable or at least doable by a duo. In EQ the epic was unobtainable unless you belonged to a large guild. What made it worse was the drops for some items were a week apart and you had a number of guild rushing to the mob spawn as the timer wore down. If that is the case in Pantheon the epics will be as impossible as ever for most
Isaya said:My vote would be for the whole epic be soloable or at least doable by a duo. In EQ the epic was unobtainable unless you belonged to a large guild. What made it worse was the drops for some items were a week apart and you had a number of guild rushing to the mob spawn as the timer wore down. If that is the case in Pantheon the epics will be as impossible as ever for most
To claim you had to belong to a 'large guild' to get an epic (even the 2.0) is all hyperbole. I knew plenty of people who were never in guilds larger than a handful of people and they easily managed to get their epics and at the same time I knew people in large guilds whose guild helped outsiders get their epics before some of their own members. Why? Because sometimes guildmates don't deserve it, aren't even around or never helping their guildmates obtain theirs, etc.
The point is this: The only thing stopping you from getting your epic is yourself. Make friends, help others, be sociable. That is all you need.
Didn't need to be in a large Guild for the original EQ Epic. I know.
Did much of my Epic unguilded. The rest in a family Guild for the most part. Was in a large Guild for a little while, but not *that* large and didn't do many of my raid pieces while in it. Most of the time it was just in PUGs and friends from time to time. For the raid contetn, there were 'Sunday Events' run in a chat channel. You turned up at 1pm GMT and, depending on how many players did turn up, they chose a place to Raid.
Spent *months* and *months* on Quillmane (almost inpossible to find, heavily contested when he does).
Took 3 tries (each try = whole weekend, sometimes 2 weekends with no use of character between raids) on PoSky since few raids bother with island 7!
Yup, this was (arguably) the hardest Epic... the Mage Epic.
... and NOT done in a large Guild.
Thid is NOT to say it was easy by any means!
Are we looking at the time put in, or the difficulty? If we go by time put in, the bulk of it should be solo. Especially since crafting is typically a solo experience.
As far as difficulty goes, I think the most difficult (mob difficulty, rare drops, ect.) parts of the quest should be group. The raids should be more or less cut and dried, but neccesary to finish the quest. I am not talking about easy raids, just no rare drops and nothing to complicated like crazy key-ing.
This way, there are solo, group, and raid components, but the most difficult parts are the group ones. It is relatively easy to find a group, compared to a raid. Besides, Aradune already stated this game is going to be group centric. If there are difficult tasks or bottlenecks, make them groupable content.
You should not need to be in a guild to finish your epic. But you should be willing to make friends and work co-operatively with others.
The EQ epic was one of the worst if not THE worst design feature among all MMOs .
Basically NO step for ANY class was difficult . It involved often help from up to 20 people but the thing to kill was the same thing that people were routinely killing anyway .
What people often confuse with "difficult" is the unholy amount of totally unproductive and boring time that was necessary to achieve an otherwise easy or even trivial task .
Just one example - the book in Sky for Enchanter epic .
This thing had a spawn cycle of 24 hours . Once it spawns the whole difficulty is to pick it up and gate away .
But now you must imagine that 200 Enchanters (I am being conservative !) want the Book .
Necessarily one of them will be the last one . And for him 200 days are necessary to make the epic . Impossible to get it faster. The one before him will have to wait "only" 199 days .
So this is simply a horrible design which imposes on the player that it might very well take up to almost one year to get a single component among a few dozens .
So for me it is irrelevant what part can be done solo and what part needs a raid . Any proportion will do .
The only important thing is that the design will not involve spawn rates or spawn cycles where several months would be necessary to obtain a given piece .
I prefer something difficult that many will fail rather than something easy but demanding months of sterile and boring waiting .
Deadshade said:The EQ epic was one of the worst if not THE worst design feature among all MMOs .
Basically NO step for ANY class was difficult . It involved often help from up to 20 people but the thing to kill was the same thing that people were routinely killing anyway .
What people often confuse with "difficult" is the unholy amount of totally unproductive and boring time that was necessary to achieve an otherwise easy or even trivial task .
Just one example - the book in Sky for Enchanter epic .
This thing had a spawn cycle of 24 hours . Once it spawns the whole difficulty is to pick it up and gate away .
But now you must imagine that 200 Enchanters (I am being conservative !) want the Book .
Necessarily one of them will be the last one . And for him 200 days are necessary to make the epic . Impossible to get it faster. The one before him will have to wait "only" 199 days .
So this is simply a horrible design which imposes on the player that it might very well take up to almost one year to get a single component among a few dozens .
So for me it is irrelevant what part can be done solo and what part needs a raid . Any proportion will do .
The only important thing is that the design will not involve spawn rates or spawn cycles where several months would be necessary to obtain a given piece .
I prefer something difficult that many will fail rather than something easy but demanding months of sterile and boring waiting .
This ..
Vandraad said:A quest is a story, after all, and it should be treated as such. The story is the Hero's Journey. For those who are fans of Joseph Campbell like I am will know what I'm talking about. All our quests, especially the epics, should follow this storyline because it is the storyline of all the great myths, all the great stories that you enjoy reading (or watching) over and over again though each wears the illusion of being a different story.
If you follow the storyline of the Hero's Journey, you see that in the eary parts of the story it is the Hero struggling to accept the notion that he is somehow different and that only he can undergo this journey. This represents, in Pantheon, all the quite subtle apparently disconnected solo-able parts we can undertake.You then meet your mentor, the being who finally sets you on your path, the central quest giver. Even reaching this character is a quest in and of itself though not a directly related quest but is the outcome of something thought to be completely unrelated.
It is from this point that you start needing your allies so your group and raid content begins here.
At the peak of the quest (not the end) it is solely up to the hero to undertake that last step, perform that life-or-death task necessary to prove the committment of the hero. This tasks (or series of tasks) are where you are solo once again, where you need to bring forth all your class abilities, skills and knowledge of the game to succeed. Pass or Fail point right here. Fail? Start from zero.
You pass the last set of trials and you claim your reward, returning to your home bringing all the boons and benefits of your new-found powers.
Excellent! A Joseph Campbell link. I'm not well read in his works but am familiar enough to agree with this concept very wholeheartedly!!!
Deadshade said:The EQ epic was one of the worst if not THE worst design feature among all MMOs .
Basically NO step for ANY class was difficult . It involved often help from up to 20 people but the thing to kill was the same thing that people were routinely killing anyway .
What people often confuse with "difficult" is the unholy amount of totally unproductive and boring time that was necessary to achieve an otherwise easy or even trivial task .
Just one example - the book in Sky for Enchanter epic .
This thing had a spawn cycle of 24 hours . Once it spawns the whole difficulty is to pick it up and gate away .
But now you must imagine that 200 Enchanters (I am being conservative !) want the Book .
Necessarily one of them will be the last one . And for him 200 days are necessary to make the epic . Impossible to get it faster. The one before him will have to wait "only" 199 days .
So this is simply a horrible design which imposes on the player that it might very well take up to almost one year to get a single component among a few dozens .
So for me it is irrelevant what part can be done solo and what part needs a raid . Any proportion will do .
The only important thing is that the design will not involve spawn rates or spawn cycles where several months would be necessary to obtain a given piece .
I prefer something difficult that many will fail rather than something easy but demanding months of sterile and boring waiting .
This.
Vandraad said:A quest is a story, after all, and it should be treated as such. The story is the Hero's Journey. For those who are fans of Joseph Campbell like I am will know what I'm talking about. All our quests, especially the epics, should follow this storyline because it is the storyline of all the great myths, all the great stories that you enjoy reading (or watching) over and over again though each wears the illusion of being a different story.
If you follow the storyline of the Hero's Journey, you see that in the eary parts of the story it is the Hero struggling to accept the notion that he is somehow different and that only he can undergo this journey. This represents, in Pantheon, all the quite subtle apparently disconnected solo-able parts we can undertake.You then meet your mentor, the being who finally sets you on your path, the central quest giver. Even reaching this character is a quest in and of itself though not a directly related quest but is the outcome of something thought to be completely unrelated.
It is from this point that you start needing your allies so your group and raid content begins here.
At the peak of the quest (not the end) it is solely up to the hero to undertake that last step, perform that life-or-death task necessary to prove the committment of the hero. This tasks (or series of tasks) are where you are solo once again, where you need to bring forth all your class abilities, skills and knowledge of the game to succeed. Pass or Fail point right here. Fail? Start from zero.
You pass the last set of trials and you claim your reward, returning to your home bringing all the boons and benefits of your new-found powers.
Great post! Ok so back to the original question with this. How much is solo vs raid? More details on this line of thought?
Ox
I took some time to seriously think about this. The word "Epic" is what stands out to me. An item that everyone can get at a whim with a few days/weeks effort is not "Epic" it might be a stretch to call it "rare"
While many steps of the EQ1 epic quests were painful those same steps also provided the pain/stress/effort needed so that when you finally finished you got the huge feeling of accomplishment.
With that in mind... I would suggest 20% solo, 60% grouped, 20% raid
I will never forget the folks who helped me get my leafblower in EQ1. The teamwork it took to get other people you didnt know in person to spend their time in a game to help you accomplish something that was important to you. I dont know about you guys and dolls, but I had a list of the people that helped me. When they asked for help I stopped what I was doing and helped them. THAT is community.
If these types of quests are solo they are by definition.. not Epic.
Some great discussion here! I rolled a Ranger in eq1. Did most of my epic solo, was helped a few times. But got stuck on Inny and Sathir. I'm all in favor of minimal bottlenecks. Heck, make it longer even. I love the idea of making it truely difficult and not just a time sink, but how do you implement that? Riddles? Puzzles? Ambiguous clues for each step? Length of the quest? Eventually a guide will get posted and people will skate through. Any ideas about upping the difficulty?
I say 40% solo, 50% group and 10% raids. Raid items should not be shared between classes! Classes should need unique drops
Epic in my mind should include at least some of each aspect of the game in order to achieve it.
Thus, being social, learning the world, trade skills, achieving level, solo, group and raid should all be included. Plus, any new ideas on the plate such as perception.
And it should be hard and long and take great effort in many of the aspects covered. The player should have a well-developed character before the epic can be achieved.
I don't want to be running around the game in 6 months and see 50% of the people with their epic, if that is the case then it’s not epic at all.
It needs to more on the scale of pleasantly surprised when you see an epic a year after launch.
That said I would go with 50% solo, though trade skills, side quests with solo/duo boss mobs (that you need to be of level/gear to kill)
40% group, where you have to be social and find groups going to the most remote regions of many dungeons and/or regions.
10% raid, where this 10% should include at least 3 raids of well geared high level players.
After which point the player should have, perhaps not fully, but to great extent experienced all that the game has to offer.
And only then should the player be wielding one of the most powerful items in the game. Turning the page and starting the next chapter in that character’s life (Epic 2.0?).
-Az
I don't know, some?
Honestly, when it comes to quests like this I don't care how much is soloable vs group vs raid. What I care about is that if you are actively working on it you can make progress towards completing it without having to wait in a line.
Bottlenecks like 24h+ spawns and rare raid drops didn't make the EQ epic quests epic, they made them tedious and frustrating.
There are two factors in epic quest design that are diametrically opposed:
1) They should be hard to attain, and by no means commonplace.
2) As mentioned by Hemolytic, above--they shouldn't be gated behind unnecessary bottlenecks.
I just spent some time trying to think of a way to make them hard to earn, and still have the quests be fair and not unnecessarily hindered by rare raid drops and the like. The solution I came up with revolves around this portion of Vandraad's post:
Vandraad said:At the peak of the quest (not the end) it is solely up to the hero to undertake that last step, perform that life-or-death task necessary to prove the commitment of the hero. This tasks (or series of tasks) are where you are solo once again, where you need to bring forth all your class abilities, skills and knowledge of the game to succeed. Pass or Fail point right here. Fail? Start from zero.
What if each epic quest had one step towards the end where the person was required to face a task solo. It should be possible to design a solo-encounter that met the following parameters:
1) Your average player who just reached max level and was in standard gear would have slim to no chance of succeeding.
2) Your average player who was max level and in all the best gear attainable would probably have little to no trouble succeeding.
3) Your average player in some mix of average and high-end gear would have a fair chance of succeeding, but it may take a few attempts.
With a scenario like this, there doesn't need to be any artificial bottlenecks. I'm not saying there shouldn't be raid encounters involved in the quest, but they no longer need to involve rare drops that you need to wait in line for months to acquire. If you need that red dragon scale, you can just be present for the raid and it could auto-pop on your cursor if you win. However, you'll still have to have mastered your class, and have poured enough time into your character to equip him/her to a level that will allow you to take on that solo challenge.
