A: I like mechanic#1. Can we discuss it?
B: No point. Mechanic#1 is proved to ruin MMOs. You are effectively asking for Pantheon to be a mediocre mass-market sell-out by suggesting it.
A: Are you sure? I really don't think it will have that much effect and the pros out-weigh the cons, I believe.
B: No, you just don't understand the genre or industry. I've been playing MMORPGs for 172 years and don't like mechanic#1 and Professor C says mechanic#1 is evil in his blog at http://www.thosethatcando.com
A: But surely we can just discuss it and perhaps someone will come up with something that addresses the issue but doesn't have the negatives you fear?
B: No. What you're saying smacks of compromise and even the smallest compromise ruins everything. You compromisers will ruin Pantheon if you keep demanding that you get everything your way.
A: I really don't think I was asking for everything my way, just that we discuss alternatives to mechanics that not everyone likes or even some completely new mechanics.
B: Why would you want alternatives to mechanics that veteran players like? We know what is best.
A: But Pantheon is in pre-alpha. Can't we discuss what we like? There's lots of scope for change and additions.
B: Pantheon is based on EQ and VG and won't change anything that made EQ or VG good (which is everything). No point discussing anything not in EQ/VG and certainly not things that were in other RPGs.
A: This feels a unfair, but I'm not a professional debater or an experienced keyboard warrior, so I can't really say anything more without fear of being beaten down.
B: You prove my point completely. Your opinon is worthless if you can't back it up with several different logic techniques and withstand relentless criticism.
A: Won't this put people off the game?
B: Only those that shouldn't be playing it anyway. Go play WoW - that's clearly what you want to play. Stop trying to ruin Pantheon.
Of course the above is a passive-aggressive exaggeration of what has been said that may well even perpetuate it. Doh.
This forum only has to feel or seem that way to put people off, though.
Newbies aren't going to research back a few hundred posts to get some context and see where individuals are coming from before they draw a conclusion on the quality of the community.
I have to chime in on this thread. I feel you guys (OP and those who share his opinion) are missing something really, really important. The reason people seem to fight tooth and nail to avoid any compromise is because there are no other options for us. If this game gets babied up, we have nowhere else to go. You guys do have other games that fit more closely to your criteria than against it. Those of us who miss what corpse runs, challenges, no auction houses, time consuming content, etc brought to the MMORPG genre have no other options. There is basically just P99 for us.
I'd wager that we are very open to new ideas, but not ideas that just try to put yet-another-coat-of-paint on mechanics that serve no purpose other than convenience (global auction house, fast travel, no corpse runs, etc). Just because you put a different "spin" on it, doesn't change how it fundamentally affects the game world.
Keep in mind that games NEVER get harder or more complex post release. Never. Mechanics get inevitably watered down, filtered, streamlined, or completely chopped as "compromises". Compromise never favors the difficult side, it always errs towards the kid-gloves. So we will continuously push for mechanics that make the game harder, more complex, and take more time to reach it's upper echelons.
Please don't take our passion personally. Understand that we're the ones with our back against the wall. So yes, we will completely dismantle every mainstream suggestion that pops up on this forum and try to kill it with fire. Only because once the EZ-mode train starts rolling, there is no such thing as turning back. It's happened all of 0 times in this genre's history.
I understand the passion and I too am enthusiastically wanting a game that does not shoot for the mass-market and give us more of the same MMO decline into mediocrity.
I think everyone here has that in common.
I think the differences here are that some have more hope and trust the Pantheon devs to not fall into the kind of traps other developers have. Some are more willing and open to discussion of anything and trust the Pantheon devs will take that discussion for what it is.
I truly don't think the Pants People will be brow-beaten by forum posts into doing anything they don't want to with the game. These forums don't need to be some kind of first-line-of-defense battle-ground.
"dismantle every mainstream suggestion" yeah, great, of course! If you're worried, give your opinion and explain your issue with the suggestion.
"and try to kill it with fire" *sigh* well there's the problem, no? This isn't some first-line-of-defense that you have to mount to protect the devs from what *you* think are dangerous opinions. That's when this place starts to look nasty.
"Mechanics get inevitably watered down... Compromise never favors the difficult side" In the past, maybe, but if we give feedback in alpha that says "nah, that fast travel implementation trivialises this content" etc etc then there could well be a 'compromise' that makes it more difficult or the mechanic could be 'stiffened up'.
Pantheon is a unique opportunity to put the MMORPG genre back on the right track, and, yes, I agree we need to go back before we go forward, but not everything other MMOs did were bad in and of themselves and assuming the worst of everything that doesn't look like EQ/VG could utterly stifle efforts to achieve the best.
I'm going to stop posting on this now. I'm simply trying to encourage everyone to be more positive in an effort to keep these forums more positive in the hope of encouraging an environment condusive to helping Pantheon be great.
@Disposalist
I like it. Funny stuff. But to be fair you need to do one from the other side for people demanding things that are clearly not part of Pantheon.
@Picks86
I understand completely where you are coming from. But there honestly isnt anything else out there for me (and others) either. Im a FFXI vet, which is basically now in glorified maint mode, and isnt even close to the same game it was in 2002. Now originally durring the kick starter FFXI was mentioned as a game that Pantheon would draw from. Things have changed and that is no longer the case (at least it isnt specifically listed). So no I dont expect this to be a spiritual successor to XI. I didnt sign up for a reskinned EQ, But I did sign up for an oldschool MMO. I dont even have a Project 99 or throwback server. And FFXIV after 1.0 failed went straight WoW. If this game was to be almost just like EQ, where else would I go? Where would VG folks go?
When I read the tenets and features it says to me oldschool MMO. True it does draw from EQ and VG, but it also will draw from other oldschool MMOs as well as new and innovative ideas. The problem is I think some people read the tenets and features and think EQ instead of oldschool MMOs in general. And they also seem to have rigid interprutations of what they have read. Like I said earlier some things are specific (no instances). And some things are more vague so you cant treat it like an exact thing so much as a general guide. And inevitably people that dont have a specific value to assign to it will compare it to EQ. And there is nothing wrong with it as a general guide, but not a 1:1 ratio. Some compromise where appropriate will not totally ruin immersion or the social gameplay. And there is always the case of too much of a good thing. Too much immersion would just make this a simulator and too much social interaction would just make this a 3d facebook. There is an appropriate balance.
For instance FFXI was an extremely well rounded social game. Anyone that knows anything about it durring its peak time would agree. Yes there were some instances, and other constructs that are nomally touted as being destructive to the social aspect, but FFXI was never affected by this. Now it could be argued that certain social elements were missing, but at that point I think folks are kind of nit picking and confusing the argument. These things didnt destroy the social element. At best it reduced the number of types of social interaction. But if EQ had 100 different types, then FFXI had 90.
@disposalist
I can't argue that what you have described is exactly how a person who has presented an idea might feel. But it's also crucial to point out that there are individuals making posts. I have come out from the start and said I wholly disagree with an idea in one thread, and come out early and said I loved an idea from another thread. Dullahan and I have both agreed and disagreed on various topics. As have Amsai and I, and Heiromonk and I, and Oxillion and I, and TehTawd and I, many others. (Sorry if you're offended that I called you out specifically. It's not any form of attack at all.)
The point I'm trying to get at is that it's human nature when confronted with multiple people staunchly opposed to your position to feel as though everyone is rejecting every idea. I presented an idea here for which the universal reaction was basicaly, wtf? The reality is that any given person here has rejected one idea yet supported another. So it's worth everyone's time to pay attention to those people you interact with as an individual, not just just a block of text in that thread. Do so both when they disagree and when they agree, and it's much much much more difficult to start feeling as though everyone is out to reject everything. I can't feel personally attacked by any of the people I've mentioned because they have all at one point or another (perhaps unwittingly) been an ally as well.
That's another reason this thread got my hackles up. First, it makes it sound like all this is personal. It's not. Second, it makes it sound like there are people who never ever accept any idea, and I can maybe come up with 2 that description would fit. Are there detractors for every idea? Usually, yeah. But it's not always the same people, which is why the defensive reaction has been described as a red herring. No idea is ever universally praised. You cannot present something anywhere without there being at least some level of resistence. I would certainly hope everyone would choose to continue contributing, but if that resistence is not something you're willing to weather you should never present ideas to begin with.
Feyshtey said:@disposalist
...Sorry if you're offended that I called you out specifically. It's not any form of attack at all...
Yeah, we're cool ;) It'll all be fine. Normal forum/internet stuff I spose.
Hugs all around!
@disposalist, Loved your little roleplay you did above. It fit nicely. I try to avoid throwing others under the bus, but sometimes peeps need to get a grip.
I like the thought of us being a family in a way. We all put our money towards this in one way or another, and that's enough for me to know peoples hopes and dreams are going into this . we all share that together.
Hopes and dreams are touchy. As adults we can do better about listening to each other without getting 'triggered' and losing sight of how sensitive people can be to a hateful rebuttal towards their hopes and dreams. Karma.
This thread was a long read and honestly there is some shameful treatment of others that was hard to get through. But what can you expect ... The very first post showed a lot of 'fear' and others joined in the same way.
Sit back and relax. We are in good hands.
That's all there is to say my friends.
Sent via mobile
-Todd
just for the record, i strongly disagree that vanguard failed because of compromise on gameplay issues. the fact that 95% of the player base could not play it the first couple months drove away players, and once someone leaves a game, they rarely come back.
also the idea that it has to be very harsh or it is very easy is rather absurd.
and for the record, orc jaw bones are used by orcs in chewing.
Most people are attracted to Pantheon because it has been described as a group centric game that harkons back to the good old days of Vanilla EQ. We crave it so badly that many of us (including me) have made monitary contributions to help fund the game's development.
None of us wants an easy mode. None of us wants a game that caters to "Lone Wolves".
Cheers,
Ironbark
