When I first read about Pantheon I was so exicted to have a real MMO something along the lines I played years ago. hard core raiding and grouping with updated grapics going to and fro slaying everything that stood in my way. I couldnt wait for them to take the best of the MMO franchise and invent something new for the bad that those MMO introduced.
Reading the forums made me more excited I even went to Newegg to build my Pantheon machine. (Pure baddassery btw)
Now.
The forums are made up of the same crap every day people argue for this or that soloey because EQ had it or Vanguard had it. Or they didnt want something because WOW had it etc etc etc. People are refusing to even listen to what could be a better version of an old idea and with that comes a lack of thoughtfulness the Devs need to make this game great.
This game CAN NOT survive witha handful or "hardcore MMO players" Nor can it survive with the newest version of MMO players looking for instant gratification. The game needs a healthy mix. It needs those hardcore players to open there eyes and realize certain things just cant be in the game. It also means the newest player needs to learn the joys of dedicating your time to one game and only one game not 30 different ones a year. Without this type of thinking Pantheon will be doomed and all the work Brad and CO has put into it will be wasted as bad as Daybreak games wastes an amazing IP.
Very rarely should someone reply to a thought or an Idea with NO, NEVER, ILL QUIT, etc etc Because that idea if tweaked could be an amazing feature. I notice people that used to post daily haven’t posted in months due to the frustration they feel in reading some forum posts Everyone needs to step back for a minute breath and come back to every thread with an open mind no matter what the issue is. Everyone should input and tweak but rarely should the words NO or Never grace the forums when ideas are around.
Please keep an open mind just becauser it was in Ultima EQ EQ or VG doesnt mean the idea was amazing. It doesnt neccesarly make the game Easymode because of a modification its just a change that could allow more players to enjoy what we grew up with.
+1, agree. In the classes that I teach we cover a five step design process. Step 1 - define the problem (what is the objective). Step 2 - research (literature, products, customers, clients). Step 3 - generate solutions (brainstorm ideas). I have gotten the impression that this is the stage the devs are in (pre, pre-Alpha). I could be wrong though. The Alpha testing would be Step 4 - analyze and select solutions (options). Beta testing would be Step 5 - test and implement.
Step 3 should be for generating as many ideas as possible whether they are crazy or not. It is not the step to shoot down ideas. Why - because those crazy ideas may be modified or adapted by others in Step 4 to generate even better solutions.
I did not play EQ or VG, but I have played other fantasy MMOs and more mass scale first or third person shooters. I have hesitated to throw some ideas out here though. Will Pantheon just be a reboot of EQ or VG with updated graphics? Might save the devs a large amount of time and labor if it were. For some reason I do not think that is their intent.
Kalgore said:It needs those hardcore players to open there eyes and realize certain things just cant be in the game. It also means the newest player needs to learn the joys of dedicating your time to one game and only one game not 30 different ones a year.
Effectively what you're saying is that Pantheon should try to shoot the gap. To hit the middle ground. To ask everyone to compromise.
To be mediocre.
To have a mediocre death penalty, not harsh enough to some and too harsh to others.
To have mediocre requirements for grouping, with some saying it's required too much and others not enough.
To have mediocre equipment power limitations or rewards, with some believing there is too much power too early and others saying that there's not enough powerful gear.
To have mediocre travel, with some believing there's too much ease and others believe not enough.
I didnt invest in mediocrity. There are 100 titles that are mediocre, either becuase they have shot for the mass market of instant gratification, or have compromised for something in the middle. No one has the balls to make a game they know will have a smaller audience who have little to zero options for their desired gameplay.
You could look at this from an alternate direction as well. Why dont you go to the 100s of other games that are on the instant-gratification end of the scale and ask them to compromise? Ask them to push more to the middle ground?
Kalgore said:
Without this type of thinking Pantheon will be doomed and all the work Brad and CO has put into it will be wasted as bad as Daybreak games wastes an amazing IP.
With this statement you have effectively killed your argument. The game that many of us love dearly and who desperately wish to experience again was a product of obstinacy. Brad was told the game couldnt be made, so he did it. He was told he had to compromise, he didnt. He was told he had to modify the game later to succeed, he didnt. He was told no one would ever buy a 3d card just for a game, they did. He was told no one would pay $15 a month, they did. At ever turn he was told it was impossible, it proved not only possible, but had the staying power of nearly 2 decades. And it wasnt until SOE starting backing off of the original design concepts did the subscriptions start to fall.
And then Brad did it again. But the second time first Microsoft and then Sony strong-armed the dev team into compromising. And frankly at release Vanguard was a massive disappointment to the very audience it had originally been marketed; the die-hard EQ crowd that wanted a REAL successfor to EQ. It wasnt what the instant-gratification crowd wanted either. So it had no firm customer base, and everyone was critical. This would eventually doom the title to the dustbin even though it eventually threaded it's way through a nebulous dev path to be a decent game.
I will agree that we should all keep an open mind. There are any number of systems that didnt exist in EQ that can be implimented well. There are things from old school EQ that we could definately do without. (Staring at the spellbook, anyone?) But the core concepts, the level of personal investement, the hazards, the pain.... Those all must be successfully translated into this title if the old gaurd of EQ will be satsified. And quite frankly most people who know the name Brad McQuaid will either flock to this game or avoid it like the plague. The latter won't matter at launch. But if you piss off the former the game will have the customer marketing that doomed Vangaurd.
Feyshtey said:Kalgore said:It needs those hardcore players to open there eyes and realize certain things just cant be in the game. It also means the newest player needs to learn the joys of dedicating your time to one game and only one game not 30 different ones a year.
Effectively what you're saying is that Pantheon should try to shoot the gap. To hit the middle ground. To ask everyone to compromise.
To be mediocre.
To have a mediocre death penalty, not harsh enough to some and too harsh to others.
To have mediocre requirements for grouping, with some saying it's required too much and others not enough.
To have mediocre equipment power limitations or rewards, with some believing there is too much power too early and others saying that there's not enough powerful gear.
To have mediocre travel, with some believing there's too much ease and others believe not enough.I didnt invest in mediocrity. There are 100 titles that are mediocre, either becuase they have shot for the mass market of instant gratification, or have compromised for something in the middle. No one has the balls to make a game they know will have a smaller audience who have little to zero options for their desired gameplay.
You could look at this from an alternate direction as well. Why dont you go to the 100s of other games that are on the instant-gratification end of the scale and ask them to compromise? Ask them to push more to the middle ground?
Kalgore said:
Without this type of thinking Pantheon will be doomed and all the work Brad and CO has put into it will be wasted as bad as Daybreak games wastes an amazing IP.With this statement you have effectively killed your argument. The game that many of us love dearly and who desperately wish to experience again was a product of obstinacy. Brad was told the game couldnt be made, so he did it. He was told he had to compromise, he didnt. He was told he had to modify the game later to succeed, he didnt. He was told no one would ever buy a 3d card just for a game, they did. He was told no one would pay $15 a month, they did. At ever turn he was told it was impossible, it proved not only possible, but had the staying power of nearly 2 decades. And it wasnt until SOE starting backing off of the original design concepts did the subscriptions start to fall.
And then Brad did it again. But the second time first Microsoft and then Sony strong-armed the dev team into compromising. And frankly at release Vanguard was a massive disappointment to the very audience it had originally been marketed; the die-hard EQ crowd that wanted a REAL successfor to EQ. It wasnt what the instant-gratification crowd wanted either. So it had no firm customer base, and everyone was critical. This would eventually doom the title to the dustbin even though it eventually threaded it's way through a nebulous dev path to be a decent game.
I will agree that we should all keep an open mind. There are any number of systems that didnt exist in EQ that can be implimented well. There are things from old school EQ that we could definately do without. (Staring at the spellbook, anyone?) But the core concepts, the level of personal investement, the hazards, the pain.... Those all must be successfully translated into this title if the old gaurd of EQ will be satsified. And quite frankly most people who know the name Brad McQuaid will either flock to this game or avoid it like the plague. The latter won't matter at launch. But if you piss off the former the game will have the customer marketing that doomed Vangaurd.
I rest my case
Reht said:Kalgore said:I rest my case
+1
So then you both want compromise. You want yet another title to add to the 100s that already exist that we are all bored to tears with.
Look, I get what you're saying to a degree. and I conceded that. But what you dont get is that there is an audience for a game further to one end of the spectrum than the end that contains the 100s of frankly gutless games. You can go out today and find literally 100s of titles that have already compromised, that have already backed off, that have already chosen to market toward a more mass appeal. Why in God's name do you demand that happen here too? Why cant anyone just allow one title to stand apart for those that want it so badly?
You are perhaps uncious of the fact that you are flippantly demeaning anyone that wants something that doesnt exist anywhere else today and telling them they MUST adopt the concepts in all these other games they simply DO NOT WANT TO PLAY.
Who between us is the most closed minded? The one who wishes to have a thing that they cannot currently get? Or the one that wants yet another of a thing that already counts in the 100s?
No wheres did I say i wanted the game to be a Mediocre game. what i said was we need old and new idea's in order for this game to work New ideas do not have to turn a game into being mediocre.
I also said it is up to those hardcore MMO gamers to show the newer generation of playing one single game and learning to master that regardless of challange. Instead we have to many people crying EQ didnt do that so its useless or Ultima didnt do that so its crap. Oh that was in WOW no thanks Im not a wow newb.
Feyshtey said:Who between us is the most closed minded? The one who wishes to have a thing that they cannot currently get? Or the one that wants yet another of a thing that already counts in the 100s?
You are, i am willing to reasonably discuss any idea, whether i agree with it or not in a respectful manner. Your approach is to attack and belittle any ideas that don't fit neatly into your concept of what the perfect game should be.
Kalgore said:No wheres did I say i wanted the game to be a Mediocre game. what i said was we need old and new idea's in order for this game to work New ideas do not have to turn a game into being mediocre.
I also said it is up to those hardcore MMO gamers to show the newer generation of playing one single game and learning to master that regardless of challange. Instead we have to many people crying EQ didnt do that so its useless or Ultima didnt do that so its crap. Oh that was in WOW no thanks Im not a wow newb.
And I conceded that. I stated that there are plenty of systems that were not in EQ that could be implimented well. But that was not my overriding point. What I did state very clearly was that the underlying difficulty of EQ needs to be translated into Pantheon. Not copied. Translated.
What you stated, among many things, was that while old EQ players need to be willing to hold the hands of those new to a more hardcore game, they must also be willing to compromise the core tenents that are what created their love of EQ. You stated there were some things that CANNOT be in the game. THAT, I reject. It is those very things that we cannot find anywhere else and that are about the only thing many of us will ever play another MMO for at all.
Reht said:Feyshtey said:Who between us is the most closed minded? The one who wishes to have a thing that they cannot currently get? Or the one that wants yet another of a thing that already counts in the 100s?
You are, i am willing to reasonably discuss any idea, whether i agree with it or not in a respectful manner. Your approach is to attack and belittle any ideas that don't fit neatly into your concept of what the perfect game should be.
If you picked any three threads I've participated in, I'd bet real money that in two of the three I've either embraced someone else's new idea, accepted that it might have a place, or even presented a new concept of my own. So dont try to label me as a "no new concepts" kinda guy. That's just not accurate. You could also read the line in my orginal post that states "I will agree that we should all keep an open mind. There are any number of systems that didnt exist in EQ that can be implimented well. There are things from old school EQ that we could definately do without."
I've been guilty of being overly defensive of my position when criticised, but I hope I haven't done any telling people they are "wrong". It rears it's head in many posts people suggesting their opinion is fact and someone else's is, therefore "wrong". There appear to be a fair few ex- (or current) debate team folks who just can't let an opposing opinion sit unchallenged. It would be nice if some people realise you don't have to *win* a discussion like your some keyboard warrior in a deathmatch bout.
I'm gonna do my best to ignore it and just post my opinions and thoughts for people to discuss and for the devs to consider, because I want to be involved in the development of a game that may well meet that MMORPG hole in my life that hasn't been filled in a while (ooer).
Just chill out folks, I implore you. Make your thoughts and opinions known and if someone tells you you're wrong in a way you just know they are going to be intractable from, well, leave it and trust that others, especially the devs, will see it for what it is. And, hey, even the intractables have a valid and heartfelt opinion and just because they won't see another view doesn't make them wrong.
Personally, I really did enjoy EQ1... and EQ2 and WoW and Dark Age of Camelot and LotRO and and etc etc and I went back to EQ P99 a few months ago and it was great, but, you know what? There's a LOT wrong with it and I've stopped playing now after just a few months. I played for years originally, but there was nothing else, really... EQ is not the holy grail of MMORPGs. Nor is VG, nor WoW, nor any really.
Now... a *mix* of the *good* bits of EQ and VG (and WoW and DAoC and etc) could be awesome. Someone should try that!... Oh, yeah...
Sure, I hope Brad and the Pants People are not tempted to worry about pleasing the mass market - that way lies mediocrity, yeah. To aim to produce something that doesn't attempt to please everyone is daring enough - we are going to have to voice our opinions and trust that they - playing and developing veterans - know what to do.
Kalgore said:Now.
The forums are made up of the same crap every day people argue for this or that soloey because EQ had it or Vanguard had it. Or they didnt want something because WOW had it etc etc etc. People are refusing to even listen to what could be a better version of an old idea and with that comes a lack of thoughtfulness the Devs need to make this game great.
+1
I hope, the developers will make a new fresh game and not just a copy of Everquest 1 with better graphics.
Kalgore said:This game CAN NOT survive witha handful or "hardcore MMO players" Nor can it survive with the newest version of MMO players looking for instant gratification. The game needs a healthy mix. It needs those hardcore players to open there eyes and realize certain things just cant be in the game. It also means the newest player needs to learn the joys of dedicating your time to one game and only one game not 30 different ones a year. Without this type of thinking Pantheon will be doomed and all the work Brad and CO has put into it will be wasted as bad as Daybreak games wastes an amazing IP.
I'm sure, the EQ-fanboys will whine very loud when the game is going free to play with a cash shop attached.
Greetings
Kalgore said:I rest my case
+1 to that and original post
Feyshtey said:Effectively what you're saying is that Pantheon should try to shoot the gap. To hit the middle ground. To ask everyone to compromise.
To be mediocre.
To have a mediocre death penalty, not harsh enough to some and too harsh to others.
To have mediocre requirements for grouping, with some saying it's required too much and others not enough.
To have mediocre equipment power limitations or rewards, with some believing there is too much power too early and others saying that there's not enough powerful gear.
To have mediocre travel, with some believing there's too much ease and others believe not enough.
No one is asking for "everyone to compromise" so we can have a mediocre game. I think it's fair to say that most people are ok with some compromise for the sake of the game and innovation. People need to remember that what might seem like compromise is learning from over 15 years of games since EQ launched. And some of the very core playstyle elements are not being compromised on. The game is still built around needing to group and be social in general instead of rushing from ! to ? solo and maxing your level in one week amoung many other aspects that make this game resemble older MMO playstyles.
Feyshtey said:And quite frankly most people who know the name Brad McQuaid will either flock to this game or avoid it like the plague. The latter won't matter at launch. But if you piss off the former the game will have the customer marketing that doomed Vangaurd.
As great as Brad is (and the teams he has put together for each game), there are so many people that don't know his name. If you try to sell a game to people by a person's name and not the game itself, you're just asking for failure. Kids/most teens don't have experiance playing/knowing about EQ and most likely not VG either, plus the many many other people who started gaming, whether MMO or not, after those games stopped being very popular or simply weren't interested in an MMO at that point in time. An MMO based around one man's name could be called "Brad's MMO" and based on your thoughts that would be good enough to keep the company/game alive (which it's not).
Like kinidin said, we're a long way from release and even (pre)alpha. Understandibly, very little of the game has been shown off and the amount of "compromise" can't be judged until late beta or release.
I have been fighting agaisnt a lot of this mentality from almost day 1. Its taken me a while to learn to be a bit more in harmony with other members of this board, but I promise you guys most EQ/VG vets are not so...... rigid? in their positions. And some I have found arent just stuborn for no reason but are concenred with the slippery slope. So they agree one thing or one thing intorduced in one way wont ruin the game but they are extremely worried that it would be the beginning of a slowly opening flood gate. Another problem I have found is sometimes differences in terminology or how things worked in one game vs another can spin quickly out of control with people jumping to conclusions based on this And some have been very mean spirited and condescending, but most arent.
The devs are watching this board. And from everything Ive read from the devs, they are not making EQ or VG reboots. They want Pantheon to draw from these games (and others) and want to introduce new ideas as well. But ultimately Pantheon is its own game.
Do keep in mind though that the majority of members here are from EQ. But that doesnt mean those of us from other games dont belong or that our opinions should not count. Many of us want an oldschool mmo, but most of us will never agree on what exactly that should be. Even among EQ vets they have different opinions on what should stay or go.
Best advise is to always post ideas and suggestions you have. But I would make sure they make sense in the context of the games listed tenets and features.
From a FFXI vet.
Amsai said:I have been fighting agaisnt a lot of this mentality from almost day 1. Its taken me a while to learn to be a bit more in harmony with other members of this board, but I promise you guys most EQ/VG vets are not so...... rigid? in their positions. And some I have found arent just stuborn for no reason but are concenred with the slippery slope. So they agree one thing or one thing intorduced in one way wont ruin the game but they are extremely worried that it would be the beginning of a slowly opening flood gate. Another problem I have found is sometimes differences in terminology or how things worked in one game vs another can spin quickly out of control with people jumping to conclusions based on this And some have been very mean spirited and condescending, but most arent.
The devs are watching this board. And from everything Ive read from the devs, they are not making EQ or VG reboots. They want Pantheon to draw from these games (and others) and want to introduce new ideas as well. But ultimately Pantheon is its own game.
Do keep in mind though that the majority of members here are from EQ. But that doesnt mean those of us from other games dont belong or that our opinions should not count. Many of us want an oldschool mmo, but most of us will never agree on what exactly that should be. Even among EQ vets they have different opinions on what should stay or go.
Best advise is to always post ideas and suggestions you have. But I would make sure they make sense in the context of the games listed tenets and features.
From a FFXI vet.
Well stated and perfectly reasonable.
A huge part of why there is so much resistence to new systems is that at their base the new systems most often provide a diluted level of effort, difficulty or time. Any of the three equally dilutes the feeling of accomplishment. For those of us that experienced EQ and many MMOs since, we know that the feeling of accomplishment has never been matched because the effort and difficulty is not as significant.
So as I've stated in my first post and all later posts, new systems can be good. But for many there is a cost. And for a lot of the crowd here, the cost is too high.
Feyshtey said:...A huge part of why there is so much resistence to new systems is that at their base the new systems most often provide a diluted level of effort, difficulty or time. Any of the three equally dilutes the feeling of accomplishment. For those of us that experienced EQ and many MMOs since, we know that the feeling of accomplishment has never been matched because the effort and difficulty is not as significant.
So as I've stated in my first post and all later posts, new systems can be good. But for many there is a cost. And for a lot of the crowd here, the cost is too high.
I agree, yes, I think that *is* the source of a lot of conflict. I think most of us MMORPG veterans are coming from the same place, but the degree to which we think 'new' systems ruin things varies and the degree to which we attribute 'old' systems with being great varies.
I went back and played EQ for the last few months. I had a blast, but I've stopped again for all the same reasons I did last time. There's a LOT wrong with it and the Pants People are going to have a hell of a time working out what to change and what to keep.
tanwedar said:Amsai said:Pants People?
My thought exactly lol. Google was no help, but I'm guessing it is the non-Brad team members or something?
Oh, lol, yeah you know, Pantheon? Good ole Pants? And the people that are devving the heck out of it? Pants People? No? Anyone? hehe. Perhaps it won't catch on...