I like the idea of Mentoring, yes it's had issues in other games before, but I would put limits on it for the person/s de-leveling, either major Xp reduction ( or no XP gain while de-leveled) and a redcution in drops which only affects the de-leveled person, this restricts mentoring to being used to help low level toons rather than abuse it to farm XP/gear.
I think mentoring is useful if you want to cover lvl content that you already out-levelled. But I hate it when a maxed player levels down and then walks a friend through everything trying to PL them. It cheapens the game.
I think the biggest problem with mentoring is that for the most part it is not done correctly. Those that mentor down are so OP for the level they move down to regardless of the "penalties" applied to them. They are STILL OP - the gear is better than anything they will get at that level - the quality of spells and abilities etc. will far overplay the mobs. There obviously needs to be a better implementation of the concept of mentoring. The existing type out there right now seems to have become an industry standard and the real question is WHY?
Amsai said:This:
So, viewing only mentoring, I see it as a a crutch in an otherwise social game. It allows a player to use /friends list or /guild and send /guild tells or /friend tells and theoretically play in a small bubble. It could almost turn an otherwise open world into a more anti-social world.
Doesnt make sense to me. So it must be something in the way EQ did it, because this simply wasnt the case in FFXI. Could you use your friends or linkshell members list? Yes, but your were more likely to level sync with strangers in the open world through shouts and looking for people with their party flag up. So lets say Im in a party of players around level 15ish. But we really badly need a tank and none seem to be available within that level range. But hey looky here a level 23 Paladin just put up his flag. So I send him a tell and ask this perfect stranger if hed like to party with us.
It makes perfect sense to me, and is something I've explained in several posts. (here and here, just to name a few)
Part of what made EQ great was that people had to go out on a regular basis and meet new people. That was mainly due to a lack of convenience mechanics like mentoring among other things. When people are able to rely solely on their clique of friends or guild mates, not only does it make the game easier for them, it makes the game harder for everyone else outside of a collective.
Basically if you have the option of grouping with someone you know or that is higher level, more knowledgeable and better geared, of course you will take them as a mentor over a random. Hence, it actually works against player interaction and community in the wider sense.
Nephretiti said:...There obviously needs to be a better implementation of the concept of mentoring. The existing type out there right now seems to have become an industry standard and the real question is WHY?
I reckon it's because it's sorta difficult do, but it's better than power-levelling, so devs introduce it, but don't put a lot of effort into it.
Here's hoping the Pants People build it in from the start and get it right.
Kilsin said:snip-snip 8<
... it is meant for those new and low-level players to keep them from logging out in frustration or leaving the game completely due to a lack of groups, lack of understanding of the game etc. we want our game to be harsh but not to the point it drives people away, so if we were to implement this mentor system it would just be an extra option on top of power leveling and twinking to help players experience the game as the appropriate levels by veteran players who can lend a helping hand both physically with their characters and by sharing tips and advice.
>8 end snippy
1. Remember that Pantheon (like EQ) will have slower progression.... you will NOT get to level 12 in one day (i hope) . More like 3 months+.
2. The issue to 'educate' a largely unaware group of players in how to deal with a combination of :
A. More challenging fights etc than they are used to...
B. Way less hand-holding than they are used to (Eg quest markers, mini-maps)....
C. Harsher penalties for YOLO, or other unthinking behaviour.
However, there is no absolute need for a 'mentoring' system as other MMOs have used. The 'cons' *are* there and have been explained in many posts (Over-powered gear, exploits, etc) above.
Since the aim is to get 'veterans' to help new players transition from 'modern instant-gratification with no challenge' games to getting into Pantheon's level of challenge, then what about some amended form of the progeny system for Early-Access players?
Eg :
1. If you get to level 6+ (say) during Early Access phase, yuo get a free extra Character Slot (linked to the other char)
2. In this slot you create a (sort of Alt), be it Nephew, Wife, Brother etc of the 1st character (main) who enters the game world.
3. Give these characters a 'title' or something else as a benefit (perhaps they are even on another server?)
4. Let these characters accumulate brownie points of some form while grouped with 'regular' newbes.
5. Perhaps they level more slowly than regular chars but get some benefit (Think D&D-online reincarnation benefit)
This kind of thing will have a similar effect to mentoring (provides more players of lower/starting level) but had the added benefit of ensuring these players are 'veteran', 'helpful', 'moderately active' and will avoid many of the exploits/pitfalls of a general 'unlimited' mentoring system.
I am NOT saying this above is a 'completed idea' by any means ... but MAY be a better solution than unlimited mentoring. (emphasis on MAY)
Dullahan said:Amsai said:This:
So, viewing only mentoring, I see it as a a crutch in an otherwise social game. It allows a player to use /friends list or /guild and send /guild tells or /friend tells and theoretically play in a small bubble. It could almost turn an otherwise open world into a more anti-social world.
Doesnt make sense to me. So it must be something in the way EQ did it, because this simply wasnt the case in FFXI. Could you use your friends or linkshell members list? Yes, but your were more likely to level sync with strangers in the open world through shouts and looking for people with their party flag up. So lets say Im in a party of players around level 15ish. But we really badly need a tank and none seem to be available within that level range. But hey looky here a level 23 Paladin just put up his flag. So I send him a tell and ask this perfect stranger if hed like to party with us.
It makes perfect sense to me, and is something I've explained in several posts. (here and here, just to name a few)
Part of what made EQ great was that people had to go out on a regular basis and meet new people. That was mainly due to a lack of convenience mechanics like mentoring among other things. When people are able to rely solely on their clique of friends or guild mates, not only does it make the game easier for them, it makes the game harder for everyone else outside of a collective.
Basically if you have the option of grouping with someone you know or that is higher level, more knowledgeable and better geared, of course you will take them as a mentor over a random. Hence, it actually works against player interaction and community in the wider sense.
Ok I appologise. Maybe my wording was wrong, or you completely ignored what I said or you dont believe it. I was saying it doesnt make sense from my FFXI point of view. You cant disagree with that, because that was not the way it was in FFXI at all. Not even a little. As I said maybe it was implimentation of EQ vs FFXI. I repeat: the vast majority of the time you level synced with strangers because it was set up to be just that convenient and rewarding. So in FFXI you werent in your own little bubble or clique of friends. You DID meet new people all the time. I repeat, all the time. So when I say it doesnt make sense maybe it would have been more accurate of me to say EQ was doing it wrong? I dont know. Im not trying to be an ass here Dullahan and I hope you know that. I even expressed my own concerns with FFXIs level sync so its not like I think its perfect. But in my vast experience with FFXI you will just have to trust me when I say FFXIs level sync did not hurt the social aspect of the game and if it did anything Id argue that it greatly increased it (though you might have a good argument with other things like FFXIs instances). This is something I know to be true. But I acknowledge it apparently wasnt true with EQ. Maybe it was also due to culture as much as implementation. Leveling back in the old days was a long and grueling process and people were thankful to get any progress they could so it was preferable to grab random strangers as they were more readily available than friends/linkshell members. Its not that I couldnt do so, but it rarely happened. Also I dont know how the level down worked with mentor, but it worked extremely well with level sync. Even the most badass gear would be rendered next to useless (no better than mundane common gear for that level really). Also you had the same base stats as anyone at that level and access only to spells and abilities up to that level. Again Im not doubting you or anyone elses experience from EQ, but please dont doubt my experience from FFXI. Any FFXI vets (there are quite a few) on these boards can verify what I am saying is simple truth about how it operated in XI. So it is my experience if it was less of a "mentor system" and more of the "level sync" system. It probably wouldnt hurt the social aspect. However, I cant argue against it being less immersive, bypassing challenge of higher levels to get xp, or that some might consider it too open in level range availibility. I guess ultimately the way FFXI had it set up it was not particularly more beneficial for friends to level sync than strangers. If you waited to sync with friends it was because you wanted to, not because it was better to. If Pantheon can manage to get that right then the social aspect will be a non issue.
@Amsai,
I admittedly didn't play FFXI much so I wasn't thinking of mentoring in the sense that you described, I was thinking of a system using more of a max level player (or high level player) grouping with a low level.
Either way, Dullahan had reiterated or clarified my thoughts on why I wouldn't like the system at least while Pantheon's playerbase was healthy - including the posts he linked. Part of the reason I think a mentoring/mecenary system ultimately becomes necessary is how spread out the playerbase becomes as well. VG was massive compared to EQ even at launch, and, just due to the sheer size the playerbase was spread more thin, much like EQ today with 19+ expansions. I had shared some thoughts on how expansion content shouldn't always be completely new zones in many posts including the one I linked below. I think that will help as well to curb the need for mentoring:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2389/please-plan-for-progression-servers
Amsai said:Ok I appologise. Maybe my wording was wrong, or you completely ignored what I said or you dont believe it. I was saying it doesnt make sense from my FFXI point of view. You cant disagree with that, because that was not the way it was in FFXI at all. Not even a little. As I said maybe it was implimentation of EQ vs FFXI. I repeat: the vast majority of the time you level synced with strangers because it was set up to be just that convenient and rewarding.
So in FFXI you werent in your own little bubble or clique of friends. You DID meet new people all the time. I repeat, all the time. So when I say it doesnt make sense maybe it would have been more accurate of me to say EQ was doing it wrong? I dont know. Im not trying to be an ass here Dullahan and I hope you know that. I even expressed my own concerns with FFXIs level sync so its not like I think its perfect. But in my vast experience with FFXI you will just have to trust me when I say FFXIs level sync did not hurt the social aspect of the game and if it did anything Id argue that it greatly increased it (though you might have a good argument with other things like FFXIs instances). This is something I know to be true. But I acknowledge it apparently wasnt true with EQ.
Maybe it was also due to culture as much as implementation. Leveling back in the old days was a long and grueling process and people were thankful to get any progress they could so it was preferable to grab random strangers as they were more readily available than friends/linkshell members. Its not that I couldnt do so, but it rarely happened. Also I dont know how the level down worked with mentor, but it worked extremely well with level sync. Even the most badass gear would be rendered next to useless (no better than mundane common gear for that level really). Also you had the same base stats as anyone at that level and access only to spells and abilities up to that level.
Again Im not doubting you or anyone elses experience from EQ, but please dont doubt my experience from FFXI. Any FFXI vets (there are quite a few) on these boards can verify what I am saying is simple truth about how it operated in XI. So it is my experience if it was less of a "mentor system" and more of the "level sync" system. It probably wouldnt hurt the social aspect. However, I cant argue against it being less immersive, bypassing challenge of higher levels to get xp, or that some might consider it too open in level range availibility. I guess ultimately the way FFXI had it set up it was not particularly more beneficial for friends to level sync than strangers. If you waited to sync with friends it was because you wanted to, not because it was better to. If Pantheon can manage to get that right then the social aspect will be a non issue.
It was different in FFXI than EQ2 (this system didn't exist in the EQ I played). The difference was multi-classing (restarting a new class on your same character) and the amount of experience you gained. You were basically playing a brand new class in FFXI, so because replaying the game was common, it wasn't used solely to powerlevel as was often the case in EQ2.
In most games I've found that mentoring is mostly used as a means of powerleveling. Even if the mentor is scaled down considerably, their knowledge alone makes them a greater asset than a random player. In those circumstances, mentoring systems often become a tool of exclusion rather than inclusion.
I think part of what made EQ magic was the variability from one day to the next. You never knew where the wind would take you. Maybe you couldn't find a friend or guildmate in a certain area, in your level range, or to camp a certain item. Even as a member of huge guilds, you still had to rely on random players to accomplish goals. This made random players important, and your reputation matter.
Some might say that was a real "inconvenience", but I believe it played a big part in social magic and unpredictability that made Everquest so compelling.
Keiiek said:Instead of mentoring, give us AA's from the get go. If i'm outleveling my friends, just switch from normal XP to AA XP until they catch up.
That's probably only a solution for a minority of players. Most will prefer to get the levels, explore new areas, conquer bigger critters with better loot, etc. I would imagine only a fraction would choose to halt the level progression and farm AAs instead.
Yes, to mentoring. I trust the dev team to be able to implement a mentoring system in the spirit of the game I trust them to deliver.
I wonder how many of the against side are trying to bring RL friend into this game? I will be trying to convince 4 of my close friend to quit WoW and join in Pantheon (free trials from the start would be a great tool here!). All they know is WoW and the clones that came after. We tried most of them, but they always want to go back to WoW because of the quality and quantity of content in that game. I have yet to find a game worth defending since I joined this circle in 2011/2012 at the launch of SWTOR (started as a work friend and we aim to do LANs every month or so).
Anyhow, if we keep saying we don't need this feature or that feature (more adventuring content over anything else) we're going to end up with a game that is hard to sell unless we adventure with the new players. And that's where mentoring makes a lot of sense to me. It's going to be much simpler (for me at least) to keep those players interested if I can mentor down and play with them when they get on rather than tell them to go out and make new friends. That'll come on it's own if the game captures them...
And no, alts are not practical. I do not want to keep an alt for Friend A, one for Friend B and Friend C. Then you need more alts when Friend A & B are on or another when Friend A & C are there. At that point give us back VG's brotherhood system (but I'd rather avoid offline exp gain and just get mentoring). I also don't want to power level them. Nothing to severe a link to the game than to follow a high level steam rolling everything in sight. I was PL'd early in my EQ career and regret it so very much.
As for high levels exploiting mentoring to gain easy xp in easier content, let them. If someone prefers killing 1 million mobs giving 10XP instead if killing 1000 mobs giving 1000XP just to avoid a possible death, that player won't reach max in a loooong time.
Dullahan said:I think part of what made EQ magic was the variability from one day to the next. You never knew where the wind would take you. Maybe you couldn't find a friend or guildmate in a certain area, in your level range, or to camp a certain item. Even as a member of huge guilds, you still had to rely on random players to accomplish goals. This made random players important, and your reputation matter.
Some might say that was a real "inconvenience", but I believe it played a big part in social magic and unpredictability that made Everquest so compelling.
This sums up my feelings well. My real life brother had played EQ, and typically was always 7 or so levels higher than me - just out of the level range for me being useful regularly in a group. With level sync, mentoring, etc. I would have been grouped with him daily. Would I have had some positives out of it - sure, I knew he was a good player and I would have spent more time with him in game and probably less /LFG at times, but, I would have missed out on making many of the friends that I did in game that I still remember today - the social magic that Dullahan is describing.
And @Amsai like Dullahan said, the EQ era that I played the most did not have mentoring (a system called spirit shrouds were added much later which was garbage http://everquest.fanra.info/wiki/Spirit_Shrouds).
Keiiek said:Instead of mentoring, give us AA's from the get go. If i'm outleveling my friends, just switch from normal XP to AA XP until they catch up.
While I am all for AA's at all stages of the game, it doesn't help with the inability to play with new players without creating an alt. If it takes a long time to level, that could mean you were grinding AA's months without being able to play with your friends that whole time.
Now their mentoring system may not allow players to group beyond the early levels so it may not help too much with friends being different levels but we shall see.
Without going into wall of text mode, I’ll say as an old EQ player mentoring is one of the systems I would like to see in Pantheon. I’m strongly for it. I play with a group of 6-10 real life friends, and having mentoring will ensure we can enjoy the game together, the way we want to, and help prevent people from falling behind and unsubbing. The idea that if we separate in levels should force us to group with other people is not the answer. First and foremost, we play games to play together, and beyond that we group with others when we feel like it. I have no problem pugging and have always done it in every MMORPG I’ve ever played, but the opportunities to connect with people I’m friends with in real life and share a fun experience online takes precedence. That holds true for all people I game with.
I think the easiest solution is make this feature fall into the different shard types. Hardcore and roleplay can skip it, and a normal server can include it. The different shards solution solves several of the more hardcore vs new progressive feature debate imo. Caravans, group member direction indictors, mentoring, and the list goes on for the stuff I think would be great on the normal servers.
So a big yes from me, and I truly hope this makes it in the game as more than a low level “help a new player” feature.
My understanding of Mentoring is that the concept can broken down into three pieces: Character, Gear and Exp.
1. High level character can become a lower level character. A level 50 can mentor down to a level 6
- My uinderstanding is: that when the 50 level character delevels, all their naked stats and HP level down also to a level 6, nothing is retained.
My question is: how far do the stats go down? what would be considered the "average" 6 level, does it mean 1 extra STR in stats compared to the newbie level 6 who has not naturally trained up that skill because they are a healer or chanter and instead have a +1 WIS or CHA compared to the deleveled 50 at level 6?
2. Gear levels down, too.
- My understanding is: if you have a cloak of flames with 35% haste and 15AC and +10 hp, it levels down to a cloak of flames with just, 2AC (no haste, no HP) or whatever a appropriate 6 level gear would be for that slot.
My question is: How is that gear deleving determined? it is taken form an average of all the level 6 loot available? probably none of which have haste for example, but the 2 AC would be pretty good. ( I say this because I was helping newbies in Najena once- I was sitting on the wall and casting rains when the level 10-12s pulled multiples, they had a chanter. For fun I gave them rings of flight to use whenever- the chanter instantly said- "thanks! that's 4AC! I need that!" *blink*)
3. Exp stays the same
- My understanding is: if you are 50 and mentor down to a level 6, and you group with 6-9 age group for instance and you hunt level 4-5 monsters. You get the same exp as if fighting level 4-5 monsters at level 6.
My question is: does that mean what would be 10% exp per kill at level 6, then translates into a blip of exp when you mentor back up to level 50? Like exp, yeah, but hardly noticible?
Personal opinion about mentoring based on EQ experience. ( I played WoW for a tiny bit, but it so happened that by that time I had met a bunch of new friends in EQ and we started raiding and it was fun. I know, late to the party for some of you vets but that is how it happened for me and it was good)
What I liked about EQ was all the quests, even the hokey, town ones. I wanted to try to get good faction in most of the towns- I wanted to be cosmopolitan. Also I wanted to meet the strange people and play off that vibe from an RP perspective.We would be strange to each other but have a common goal kind thing.
I wanted to go to rivervale, but never made it for one reason or another until I was like 50 and it bummed me out (A LITTLE) because I was not earning the exp from the quests at the appriopriate age. I could do them for the faction, sure, but I wanted it to be worth while on all levels, Faction, Exp, Strangers, Language- people talk about watching travel shows and being "armchair travelers" well I wanted to be a MMO PC traveler with the added bonus of actually being there , so-to-speak. It felt like I was cheating because I was such a high level- rather than the appropriate newbie age. Final stage of quest is to Kill the jack-o-lantern? *bink* down. * sigh* turn thing in. no challenge. It was empty.
But I think I would get excited about mentoring down if I could earn the Exp at the appropriate age and meet new people and possibly run into them when they are older and say "remember when!"
From a game mechanical view i think mentoring can be quite good. In city of heroes you could even be a sidekick (temporarily leveling up to 1 level below your buddy) and it worked. You were still weaker than a "real" player at that level (due to the enhancement system) but at least you could contribute.
I see problems from a roleplaying perspective. See, my experienced buddy wants to help us get rid of those orcs because they are a threat to the elven forest. What does he do? He takes on a blindfold, binds his right sword arm to his back and then engages the orcs ferociusly. That doesn't feel right. So i would suggest to disable such a feature on roleplaying servers.
Humperding said:From a game mechanical view i think mentoring can be quite good. In city of heroes you could even be a sidekick (temporarily leveling up to 1 level below your buddy) and it worked. You were still weaker than a "real" player at that level (due to the enhancement system) but at least you could contribute.
I see problems from a roleplaying perspective. See, my experienced buddy wants to help us get rid of those orcs because they are a threat to the elven forest. What does he do? He takes on a blindfold, binds his right sword arm to his back and then engages the orcs ferociusly. That doesn't feel right. So i would suggest to disable such a feature on roleplaying servers.
There's a ton of things that wouldn't make sense from a role-playing perspective lets be real now. I can't see the developers NOT implementing a feature that wouldn't allow more community interaction. (tied myself on this one o boy)
I'm very much for a mentoring system, as I think it can help keep many areas populated and increase the possiblity of finding a group. There are a couple of things about past mentoring systems that I have disagreed with, such as...
1.) Higher level player being rewarded exp similar to if they leveled at their natural level - With this, many players could just continue to play through low level content. ie. if I'm level 40 and the areas in the world where you level at that range are really difficult, I could just sync with lower level groups and just skip those hard areas. If I see people that are above level 40 it would be cool to know that person went through such and such zone. I truly believe that high level exp should be earned by high level mobs.
2.) balancing issues- Which VR is aware of. An idea could be that all your gear/stats are synced to the stats of the best gear for each piece of equipment for that level. i.e If your chest piece has +100 HP but the best chest piece at your synced level only has +25 HP, then it cannot go above 25 HP.
3.) Being able to sync and unsync anywhere - I think it would be cool if you had to sync or unsync inside a city, that way it really makes you feel like you are that synced level and can't unsync to clear paths in a dungeon etc.
Those are some of the reasons I never agreed with the mentor system, however, I do see the benefits of a mentoring system, such as... playing with friends, populating lower leverl zones, helping new players. And I have been thinking about this a lot of found a system I think could be really cool...
The general idea would be this... When mentoring you would not get regular experience points, instead, you will get "mentoring points" which can be exchanged in a city for ingame currency. Essentially, mentoring would be an occupation. This could kill several birds with one stone. 1.) provide help to new players. 2.) allow people to play with low level friends. 3.) give max level players another way to make income besides crafiting/gathering/farming.
Also, there could be a mentoring rank. The more you mentor people the higher your currency exchange rate would be since you have a better "resume" as a mentor.
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts on the mentoring system. What do you all think?
Best,
Pilch
I'll take a very dogmatic position. There should be no mentoring of any type in Pantheon unless VR can make sure that it gives neither the higher levels nor the lower levels more experience per minute than they could get doing normal content at their level.
Excessive experience allows mentoring to be used for speed-leveling which is anathma to the core concept of the game. If the experience table gives greater experience to either high or low level than they could readily get at their true level the system will be used as an exploit. If the mentoring system allows the high levels to be more powerful after they are mentored down or the low levels to be too powerful after they are mentored up the groups will blow through content and this too will be used as an exploit.
Examples of level-adjustment systems gone horribly wrong - Rift and Intrepid Adventures. EQ2 and Level agnostic dungeons. Maximum level in a day or less at least my last time there.
If people are so eager to play with friends but so unwilling to go to a bit of extra effort to do it (by e.g. making characters that stay at the same level as the friends) much better to give them *half* the normal experience rather than too much. After all it is the fun of playing with friends that they are after not experience ....right?
Power leveling should be an unlock. Something players can do once you get one character to max level and only per account. This way mentoring is a must for all new players and stays a viable tool. Mentoring is a far better solution for new players to experience a game, and more importantly the world, versus power leveling. Proven time and time again. Granted leveling shouldn't take years and years, but it should be an intrinsic event in an mmo.
Other than that, keep traditional power leveling in other MMO's.
Kilsin said:Mentoring - Do you think it is a helpful community building system that promotes socialization or would you rather higher level characters power level new players and lower levels?
Absolutely! Not only does it help encourage a better experience between friends of disparate levels (instead of one just carrying them through things), but it helps level playing fields in group content as well.
I like voluntary mentoring systems more than automatic ones, as sometimes I want to just be able to run through a low level zone and ignore things.
I'm glad that we will have all the options available to us.
I agree with someone else earlier that said something along the lines of, just remember to get the scaling correct and err on the side of under- rather than over- powered, since the whole point of mentoring is to group with lower level friends. I would suggest, though it's not a huge deal, that in order to mentor down, you have to group with a lower level player rather than the EQ2 chronomancer system of self mentoring.
I'd much rather see players have a reason to go back to lower level areas for normal grouping. This is an issue that plagues every mmo when new players come in way later and struggle to catch up. Older zones become ghost towns, but there isn't ever content in expansions to allow a new player to level up. I honestly have no idea what can be done to solve this outside of scaling and that doesn't seem like the right answer when dungeons are designed with difficulty gradients. Has anyone ever attempted partial scaling up? Maybe after a certain level, mobs in a lower dungeon scale up to match thee players level, but they would never scale down for lower level players. Then as expansions come along, throw in a few quests that send players back, or add new things to the loot tables that are required to progress in the expansion? Hmm I don't know. It's a really challenging problem to solve.
As far as mentorship vs powerleveling, I think I like the concept of mentoring better just from a content experience standpoint for the new player. But I also question not giving them any experience for doing it. There has to be some sort of incentive for players to do it. They should be rewarded for helping new players experience the content the way it was meant to be played.