When leveling up will stat points be auto allocated based on your class or will pantheon allow the player to choose where to allocate their points. If points are auto allocated then you would have a system in place where every class at max level with no armor would have the exact same stats base, "which would probable be easier to balance", but at the same time if you let the player put in the stat points, you create diversity in the game. Not every max level "specific class" would have the same base stats. Everquest Online Ps2 would be a good example of players putting in points themself. Have some sort of system in place via quest or rare drop, that would allow players to unallocate points and reapply them in a different way. What is everyone elses thoughts on this?
Umbra said:Definitely player stat allocation. Variety is the spice of life!
EQ and from what I've seen, VG had this method, so I will make a brave prediction and say Pantheon will also.
EQ did not have this, at least originally, idk about anything past OoW. EQ allowed you points to allocate at character selection, it did not let you put stats in as you leveled and did not let you unallocate points and put them some where else. You made your character and lived with what you put points into or you rerolled.
I do not think we should be given points to allocate. We should get base stat increases per level and gear should be where we make up the difference. The better the gear the better the stats.
Shouldn't be able to dump all my points in str and run as a dps warrior and then go oh we don't have a tank, let me just reput points into sta and problem solved.
Decide the type of character you want to play and play it. You don't get to flip flop and choose to change your mind every day. This isn't WoW.
EQ absolutely had player driven stat allocation at release and for many years after. There was a baseline stat allocation based on race/class, and then there was a pool of 20-25 points the player could assign at their pleasure.
And I think it was the right approach.
Yes, you could dump all of your Wizards extra points into strength so that you could carry more loot/cash without being encumbered. But you'd do so at the lass of Intelligence where it probably should have been applied, and a smaller mana pool to work with.
Feyshtey said:EQ absolutely had player driven stat allocation at release and for many years after. There was a baseline stat allocation based on race/class, and then there was a pool of 20-25 points the player could assign at their pleasure.
And I think it was the right approach.
Yes, you could dump all of your Wizards extra points into strength so that you could carry more loot/cash without being encumbered. But you'd do so at the lass of Intelligence where it probably should have been applied, and a smaller mana pool to work with.
That's exactly what I said. You did not get points every level to allocate, you got to do it once at character select and that was it.
I would not want the system to change to be something easy, because then like Moarcrits says warrior can change from dps to tank whenever. You could even have the system not let you change once you put points in, since there will be the prodigy system. This may make people want to use the system more because they messed up allocating their stat points while leveling.
I was positive that a player could disperse stats amongst character abilities. That said, it’s been 15 and a bit years since I’ve played and the more than a dozen MMOs and two dozen single player RPGs I’ve played since then may be confusing me.
Either way, I would like to see a player at least allocate some stats to abilities. As a hybrid character for example, I may want to boost my mana pool slightly, but not bother with a large stat chunk from gear to do that. Pushing 20 points into Intelligence via levelling (over several levels) would achieve this nicely though.
I agree though, it should not be possible to change stats on the fly, though it would be nice to do it via a quest or a large chunk of coin etc.
I agree with having stats from character creation and levels that we can choose to put into the areas we want. The more diversity the characters can have the better :D Sure there will probably be a lot of cookie cutter "builds" that people follow, but variations make the game so much more fun.
Umbra said:I was positive that a player could disperse stats amongst character abilities. That said, it’s been 15 and a bit years since I’ve played and the more than a dozen MMOs and two dozen single player RPGs I’ve played since then may be confusing me.
Either way, I would like to see a player at least allocate some stats to abilities. As a hybrid character for example, I may want to boost my mana pool slightly, but not bother with a large stat chunk from gear to do that. Pushing 20 points into Intelligence via levelling (over several levels) would achieve this nicely though.
I agree though, it should not be possible to change stats on the fly, though it would be nice to do it via a quest or a large chunk of coin etc.
No, thats what gear is for. If you can just add extra points into stats you can keep shitty gear and upgrades become less meaningful. You get your base stats defined by class then get to allocate extra points during creation. The rest is up to gearing. That's the whole point of gear, to make your character better.
Umbra said:I was positive that a player could disperse stats amongst character abilities. That said, it’s been 15 and a bit years since I’ve played and the more than a dozen MMOs and two dozen single player RPGs I’ve played since then may be confusing me.
Either way, I would like to see a player at least allocate some stats to abilities. As a hybrid character for example, I may want to boost my mana pool slightly, but not bother with a large stat chunk from gear to do that. Pushing 20 points into Intelligence via levelling (over several levels) would achieve this nicely though.
I agree though, it should not be possible to change stats on the fly, though it would be nice to do it via a quest or a large chunk of coin etc.
Again thats the point of gear. By giving stat points out just for the funzies you make gear aquisition less meaningful. Getting an upgrade is supposed to be meaningful and worthwhile.
Rachael said:I agree with having stats from character creation and levels that we can choose to put into the areas we want. The more diversity the characters can have the better :D Sure there will probably be a lot of cookie cutter "builds" that people follow, but variations make the game so much more fun.
Yes there will be cookie cutter builds because it adds an unnecessary complexity to the game. Rift had crazy classes that you could blend together to make awesome characters, what it ended up in was there really was only 1 viable blend of classes for melee, mages and rogues. Healers had a little more variation. But it still ended up in the same cookie cutter builds and you don't venture out of those because you give yourself a disadvantage if you do.
It also created unintended ways to exploit stuff.
KISS.
Don't fix problems that don't exist.
Moarcrits said:Yes there will be cookie cutter builds because it adds an unnecessary complexity to the game. Rift had crazy classes that you could blend together to make awesome characters, what it ended up in was there really was only 1 viable blend of classes for melee, mages and rogues. Healers had a little more variation. But it still ended up in the same cookie cutter builds and you don't venture out of those because you give yourself a disadvantage if you do.
It also created unintended ways to exploit stuff.
KISS.
Don't fix problems that don't exist.
I agree. The Rift comment cemented it for me. To much variation will lead to two things: 1) There WILL be a prefered setup everyone is 'supposed' to have. 2) Many of the combinations will be just awful anyway.
KISS method all the way. Customization can be found in so many other ways IMHO.
As a side note, the only way to make it work so that large scale customization will be useful would be if you made many, very relevant stats that each affected various aspects of the game. In which case, you could become a specialist in various things, such as combat, tradeskills, diplomacy, or even 'rogue-like' skills. However, just about everyone will want to be combat oriented, and if you do not let people switch around their stats, you will have a lot of very frustrated players on your hands. Not to mention, if I did make a combat oriented character and then after a year or two of playing I wanted to do tradeskills, but could not do them effectively... another angry player.
KISS all the way. Either there are set stats for each race/class combo, or you let players pick a few at the start and stick with them, or both. I like the idea of stats increaing with level, but it should be relatively small increments and they should not be chosen by the player, but scripted.
At some point once AA was introduced, it may have been a few expacs after Luclin, you could add AA points to adjust your base status up a bit.
And I do hope they have some sort of AA system, EQs AA system was pretty good for a long time but after years of expansions it got kind of crazy.
The one thing I didn't like though was how it eventually got to the point where you had to be Max LVL with 300AA just to go on some of the raids (player created limitations but it happend). Which in the end is what people are talking about with the prefered setup alot of games end up in. I'm not sure there is any good way to avoid that one. We all do it in RL too, so its probably just part of being alive :P
That said, ya keep it simple, I liked how EQ did it; put your bonus points in when you roll and then your stuck with it until you can get the AA points going many levels later. In the end it only really mattered greatly in the early levels, as soon as you got gear rolling in, you could pretty much offset any stupid allocations you may have made on creation.
Or how about a 5 point flexible stat addition- say every 15 levels? So you would start with 25 points and allocate a fixed number to various stats permanently- but every 15 levels ( or whatever) you get 5 more to apply- OR- have the ability to reassingn 5, or maybe add 2 and reasign 3.
Yeah, I like these types of ideas. A few points to add to stats is something I feel would add customisation to characters and give them a true sense of identity. That hybrid character adding 5 points to intelligence to boost mana, or a rogue adding 5 points to charisma to be the fence of the group...etc etc.
tehtawd said: Hi guys, I would be ok if you could change those stats later through some difficult means. I hate putting a lot of time into something just to find out in the end I made mistake. Sent via mobile -Todd
The choices you make have very real consequences, and it should be that way.
It's not like this is an overly complex situation. Stat allocation, mages need int and health, tanks need sta and str, etc etc.
If people cant think about the long term implications, then maybe they shouldn't play this game. Simply asking yourself "what is my classes role and what would I need to put points into" is a very simple question.
I'm making an enchanter, if I put all my points into str, well I'm dumb. Maybe this isn't the game for me and I should look for something else to play like Lego Batman or hello kitty adventure.
The real way to make an ench would be as many points into int as possible rest into cha and possibly some sta. Not difficult.
Moarcrits said:tehtawd said: Hi guys, I would be ok if you could change those stats later through some difficult means. I hate putting a lot of time into something just to find out in the end I made mistake. Sent via mobile -ToddThe choices you make have very real consequences, and it should be that way.
It's not like this is an overly complex situation. Stat allocation, mages need int and health, tanks need sta and str, etc etc.
If people cant think about the long term implications, then maybe they shouldn't play this game. Simply asking yourself "what is my classes role and what would I need to put points into" is a very simple question.
I'm making an enchanter, if I put all my points into str, well I'm dumb. Maybe this isn't the game for me and I should look for something else to play like Lego Batman or hello kitty adventure.
The real way to make an ench would be as many points into int as possible rest into cha and possibly some sta. Not difficult.
Why do you find it necessary to insult people and ideas? It's not constructive, and its completely unpleasant to witness. You're discouraging discussion that might lead to interesting ideas.
That aside, I personally like the ability to customize characters. I love AA points from EQ as an example, and Brad has stated that they are considering and will likely have some kind of AA system. I see stat point allocation in somewhat they same light.
I dont see why being able to assign a small number of points per level to your stats would change the value of stats on gear at all. If anything it provides an additional layer of consideration in which gear pieces you might use. In your enchanter example imagine two different players. One player is regularly doing pickup groups with strangers and finds that there are often those who accidently break mez and fail to keep mobs off of him. That player might want to focus on gear that generally has higher AC but sacrifces some int, and to your point these choices are great and gear is important. But this player also chooses to put a few more of his stat points into stamina to absorb more of the beating he seems to take instead of considering gear with stamina that sacrafice more Int accordingly. The other player always plays with a regular kickass guild group that never breaks mez and always picks up any agro headed his way. He can concentrate more on the high int gear without nearly as much concern for AC. And in stat allocation he can forgo the stamina entirely because he simply doesnt need it.
As far as the exploitation argument goes, that's what game testing is for. And no one has ever accused Brad of being shy with the nerf bat.
On the topic of changing stats later, I absolutely agree that the ability to do so is preferable. Yes, your decisions should have consequences, and in a static environment I would agree with you that your stats should never need to be adjusted. But MMOs evolve, new encounters types are introduced, the tactics morph accordingly, as do the stats that players may choose to concentrate on. The ability to reset stats for a cost, thru a quest or something isnt undue. I wouldnt make it simple. I wouldnt make it painless by any means, and I would want it to be something a player considered carefully before entering into so that it wasnt happening with any regularity. But the option existing makes sense. A hell of a lot more sense than realizing 6 years into the game that the character you started at release is at a serious disadvantage now based on the development path the game has followed.
Feyshtey said:Moarcrits said:tehtawd said: Hi guys, I would be ok if you could change those stats later through some difficult means. I hate putting a lot of time into something just to find out in the end I made mistake. Sent via mobile -ToddThe choices you make have very real consequences, and it should be that way.
It's not like this is an overly complex situation. Stat allocation, mages need int and health, tanks need sta and str, etc etc.
If people cant think about the long term implications, then maybe they shouldn't play this game. Simply asking yourself "what is my classes role and what would I need to put points into" is a very simple question.
I'm making an enchanter, if I put all my points into str, well I'm dumb. Maybe this isn't the game for me and I should look for something else to play like Lego Batman or hello kitty adventure.
The real way to make an ench would be as many points into int as possible rest into cha and possibly some sta. Not difficult.
Why do you find it necessary to insult people and ideas? It's not constructive, and its completely unpleasant to witness. You're discouraging discussion that might lead to interesting ideas.
That aside, I personally like the ability to customize characters. I love AA points from EQ as an example, and Brad has stated that they are considering and will likely have some kind of AA system. I see stat point allocation in somewhat they same light.
I dont see why being able to assign a small number of points per level to your stats would change the value of stats on gear at all. If anything it provides an additional layer of consideration in which gear pieces you might use. In your enchanter example imagine two different players. One player is regularly doing pickup groups with strangers and finds that there are often those who accidently break mez and fail to keep mobs off of him. That player might want to focus on gear that generally has higher AC but sacrifces some int, and to your point these choices are great and gear is important. But this player also chooses to put a few more of his stat points into stamina to absorb more of the beating he seems to take instead of considering gear with stamina that sacrafice more Int accordingly. The other player always plays with a regular kickass guild group that never breaks mez and always picks up any agro headed his way. He can concentrate more on the high int gear without nearly as much concern for AC. And in stat allocation he can forgo the stamina entirely because he simply doesnt need it.
As far as the exploitation argument goes, that's what game testing is for. And no one has ever accused Brad of being shy with the nerf bat.
On the topic of changing stats later, I absolutely agree that the ability to do so is preferable. Yes, your decisions should have consequences, and in a static environment I would agree with you that your stats should never need to be adjusted. But MMOs evolve, new encounters types are introduced, the tactics morph accordingly, as do the stats that players may choose to concentrate on. The ability to reset stats for a cost, thru a quest or something isnt undue. I wouldnt make it simple. I wouldnt make it painless by any means, and I would want it to be something a player considered carefully before entering into so that it wasnt happening with any regularity. But the option existing makes sense. A hell of a lot more sense than realizing 6 years into the game that the character you started at release is at a serious disadvantage now based on the development path the game has followed.
Why do you find it necessary to find every post I make and argue with me?
Do you know anything about game development? Do you wanna know why allowing changing of stats is a bad idea? Here let me break it down for you so may be you'll stop looking for every post I make to argue with it.
When creating content, you have to tune said content to a certain stat threshhold. It's that lovely thing people call gear checks.
Simplified version for you. See you have raid mob 1. Raid mob 1 does x damaged per minute. Healers can heal y damage per minute. Then you tune the encounter based off the gear appropriate for that level. For arguements sake lets say he's a simple tank and spank encounter, the first raid encounter.
With your idea of allowing points to be added at your choosing plus gear gets this situation. Tank has below average gear, puts all his funsie stats into sta to artificially inflate his hitpoints. His normal gear wouldn't allow him to tank this encounter but all the extra sta hes able to put in freely allows him to do so. Healers need inflated mana pools to keep the tank up longer since his gear isn't up to snuff, well thats easy dump all the points into wis! And this goes down the line with every class and their appropriate stat.
Now you have people killing content when they shouldn't be able to. But wait there's more.
Since this is allowed, now the devs have to tune encounters to account for the fact that this is possible to do, making their job harder and more complex. Now they have to account for every possible combination of stat allocation to find out if there is some type of invulnerability they may have overlooked and I can assure you they will miss some things. People are crafty and will find ways. Now they have to go back and tune the encounter for said thing they missed. All this time could be spent on designing and implementing new content.
Now if you leave stats alone, we can figure out from start to finish how to tune mobs based on gear of that level. This allows them to make encounters fun and skillful based on gear of that level. They don't have to worry about loopholes in stat allocation. They can focus on the encounter vs the gear used. They know what the stats on the gear are because they made it. There's no variation to consider.
If we use the same raid mob 1 in this example with base stat allocation divided by gear of that level, we can know exactly how to tune the encounter for it. If the raid has all of the rarest drops from the named going into it sure it will be a fair bit easier than you're average geared raid, but the encounter is supposed to be geared to the average person as the entry level raid content. This second group of overgeared players is already half way to the second raid encounter, which will be tuned for gear off the beginner raid encounter.
I've worked with devs testing content, testing raid content, I lead a top 5 WW raid guild.
One of our members figured out how to equip a shield and a 2h weapon. Devs came to us asking how it was done because they couldn't figure it out. As I said, people will figure out things a vast majority of people would never consider trying.
This is another example of KISS. Don't make your job harder by trying to be cute. Allowing people to alter their stats along the way throws the tuning of encounters out of whack. It will again also lead to "this is the best way to allocate your stats" which completely negates your argument of "I want variation!" because you won't have it in the end. Guilds will require certain stat allocation, certain gear and a certain level of player skill.
Instead of worrying about stat allocation maybe people should be worried about playing their class better than others, thats where your "variation" will come from. Work on being a better player instead of relying on a crutch that is allowing you to artificially inflate stats.
We had a saying in my old guild which will always hold true. Do more with less.
And to touch on the opening of your post Fey, I really just think you have it out for me and my posts because I proved you wrong on the run speed post and a bunch of people agreed with me, if not then I apologize. I have no hard feelings, you just need to realize I've been doing this a while. Everything at this point is speculation and the devs could add or drop features any time. I just don't want this game to be WoW and have everything handed to me and made easier so I can feel better about myself.
That's the problems with all games now, instant gratification and a massive readuction in the skill gap. I want that back. I want people to say "oh that Moar guy is one of the best enchancters I've seen on this server." And if people don't say that, then I'll work my ass off so people do. Thats the difference.
Alexander said: Actually, I was the -only- guy to agree with you on the roads thing, Moar. =P
Ah well I thought I saw more, point still stands. He got mad and said he wouldn't talk about it any more when I backed my points up with valid reasoning besides "it would be really cool and real life like."
Thank you for keeping me honest :)
jaymills85 said:@Moarcrits. This was explaned very well. Thank you.
Thank you. I'll go back to my rift comment for example.
We were the #1 raiding guild on our server. There was 20 different variations to spec your warrior. Guess how many got used? 2, 1 for the tanks and one for the dps. Healers had 2, 1 was purely for mt healing the other was the senticar build that was for healing the raid. Rogues had 2, 1 for ranged and 1 for melee. Mages had 1.
Yes there was a ton of variation, however only 1 or 2 combinations shined and were top tier builds. You will never achieve balance with 20 variations for 1 class archetype. Hell, WoW is constantly rebalancing their game and it's been out how long? There's 2 specs per build and 7 classes? Idk exact numbers haven't played wow in years but the example is the same.
I get that a lot of people want to be unique little snow flakes, you don't get that by tons of variety. You get that by being better than Joe Bob and Tim in your class role. Your name means something on the server, your reputation good or bad will be carried with you. So work your ass off, get better at your class and always try to learn new things, be adventurous and experiment with your spells and capabilities, know your class mechanics inside and out.
When I was working on my enchanter epic 1.0, the people who helped me brought me to chardok and said were here for you, you're the only enchanter here and this place is add city. If you want your epic you better play your class at top level, and God damn it was that an epic feeling knowing 1. MY epic was on the line and 2. This raids success was on my shoulders. I enchanted my ass off in that God damn zone of lizard men with funky ass horns who summon left and right. My monk puller put me through the wringer bringing groups of 5 or 7. Hes like yep I can split these but you have to work for your epic and I did. People on my server knew me, we pulled off stuff in groups we probably shouldn't have been able to but we were skilled and earned every drop and every bit of xp we gained. When we failed we examined why, what we could do differently or better and progressed. Not just in gear or levels, but in skill and as players.
Moarcrits said:Feyshtey said:Why do you find it necessary to insult people and ideas? It's not constructive, and its completely unpleasant to witness. You're discouraging discussion that might lead to interesting ideas.
Why do you find it necessary to find every post I make and argue with me?
Do you know anything about game development? Do you wanna know why allowing changing of stats is a bad idea? Here let me break it down for you so may be you'll stop looking for every post I make to argue with it.
Oh my lord you two. Do you guys need time out time in the corner? or would you guys like to join us again at the grown up table and have a civilized conversation without arguing and showing who has the bigger penis? Grow the **** up and stop arguing, This is a forums for discussions and debates not petty disputes, if you guys have a problem keep it in the damn Private Messages.
Moar you did a great example of explaining how it is "Done" when adjusting stats and power.
Everyone has had great ideas in general, But shutting ideas down without asking more explanation is pretty childish.
I personally like the idea of you have a designated amount of Allot Stat you can move around upon character creation but then maybe giving 1-5 new stat points per expasnion release (depends on time between expacs) then the ability to rearrange your points but not all just some of the points. So when the next expac comes around you can only change the ones you have recieved from the prior expac and the new ones you have just recently recieved.
LeonSanborn said:Moarcrits said:Feyshtey said:Why do you find it necessary to insult people and ideas? It's not constructive, and its completely unpleasant to witness. You're discouraging discussion that might lead to interesting ideas.
Why do you find it necessary to find every post I make and argue with me?
Do you know anything about game development? Do you wanna know why allowing changing of stats is a bad idea? Here let me break it down for you so may be you'll stop looking for every post I make to argue with it.
Oh my lord you two. Do you guys need time out time in the corner? or would you guys like to join us again at the grown up table and have a civilized conversation without arguing and showing who has the bigger penis? Grow the **** up and stop arguing, This is a forums for discussions and debates not petty disputes, if you guys have a problem keep it in the damn Private Messages.
Moar you did a great example of explaining how it is "Done" when adjusting stats and power.
Everyone has had great ideas in general, But shutting ideas down without asking more explanation is pretty childish.
I personally like the idea of you have a designated amount of Allot Stat you can move around upon character creation but then maybe giving 1-5 new stat points per expasnion release (depends on time between expacs) then the ability to rearrange your points but not all just some of the points. So when the next expac comes around you can only change the ones you have recieved from the prior expac and the new ones you have just recently recieved.
Wasnt aware I needed more explanation. The ideas were very clearly explained, I shut them down with facts, not opinions. Im not sure why I need more explanation on a feature thats not complex to understand nor is a good idea, again, which I backed up with solid argument as to why it was a bad idea.
Just because I disagree with someone and put facts forward as to why its a bad idea doesnt mean Ive violated safe spaces. Im open to discussing features, just dont be upset when I shoot them down by backing up what I say with very real scenarios.