Perhaps we get a few stats every 10 levels? I remember playing Rift as a rogue and though I enjoyed playing the rogue, despite the fact I could respec, I was always best as rogue. So yes, you are correctly, variety doesnt always end up as it was intended. One thing I think we all forget is that with all skills / spells that the dev's are implementing, is that they intend on giving us some variation with runes we can add to each. The spell book shows three slots, add the mana climates and you get quite a bit of variation. At this point all we can do is speculate, and these types of convos are great, but while I like how Moarcrits explained it, LeonSanborn is right; dont take another's opinion so personally. Work it out!
Moarcrits said:LeonSanborn said:Oh my lord you two. Do you guys need time out time in the corner? or would you guys like to join us again at the grown up table and have a civilized conversation without arguing and showing who has the bigger penis? Grow the **** up and stop arguing, This is a forums for discussions and debates not petty disputes, if you guys have a problem keep it in the damn Private Messages.
Moar you did a great example of explaining how it is "Done" when adjusting stats and power.
Everyone has had great ideas in general, But shutting ideas down without asking more explanation is pretty childish.
I personally like the idea of you have a designated amount of Allot Stat you can move around upon character creation but then maybe giving 1-5 new stat points per expasnion release (depends on time between expacs) then the ability to rearrange your points but not all just some of the points. So when the next expac comes around you can only change the ones you have recieved from the prior expac and the new ones you have just recently recieved.
Wasnt aware I needed more explanation. The ideas were very clearly explained, I shut them down with facts, not opinions. Im not sure why I need more explanation on a feature thats not complex to understand nor is a good idea, again, which I backed up with solid argument as to why it was a bad idea.
Just because I disagree with someone and put facts forward as to why its a bad idea doesnt mean Ive violated safe spaces. Im open to discussing features, just dont be upset when I shoot them down by backing up what I say with very real scenarios.
No you only shut down an idea and gave your idea and why your opinion was "better", Every Idea can be implemented, BUT the game developers (VISONARY REALMS) can make what ever they want and choose what ever they want, if they want us to be a floating hamster like a golf ball in mid air then they can. NO idea is a bad idea, some are just better than others. This IS the forums where ANY idea and opinion can be voiced, but to say that YOURS is the best and there is no other way type of thinking does not belong here. Put a crowbar in the brick inbetween that hamster wheel in your head and pry it out and the wheel might start turning.
jaymills85 said:Perhaps we get a few stats every 10 levels? I remember playing Rift as a rogue and though I enjoyed playing the rogue, despite the fact I could respec, I was always best as rogue. So yes, you are correctly, variety doesnt always end up as it was intended. One thing I think we all forget is that with all skills / spells that the dev's are implementing, is that they intend on giving us some variation with runes we can add to each. The spell book shows three slots, add the mana climates and you get quite a bit of variation. At this point all we can do is speculate, and these types of convos are great, but while I like how Moarcrits explained it, LeonSanborn is right; dont take another's opinion so personally. Work it out!
This does bring up some good ideas, I do remember seeing on the spell book like 3 little slots under the spells..... Curious to what those are for 0.o Maybe they are quick equip slots for a crystal that can be added to the spell so they react to the different mana climates. Every 10 levels seems like a good balance, but it might have to be a small amount of stat being alloted?
I do not like the idea of stat allocation beyond the initial character creation (except maybe a limited AA model). I think your character is born with stats and lives with those stats. I think doing stats afterwards detracts from equipment augmentation and enhancements. If you want more Str, wear Str gear. If you’re a bard and want Cha for songs, then make sure you equip items that either have high cha, or augment those items with more Cha.
I did like the idea in EQ2 with soft and hard caps for skills\stats. In this setup I don’t mind the AA model as long as it is controlled and limited. AA’s are basically augments for your character similar to an augment for a piece of gear. Again, keeping to a hard and soft cap.
To me, the leveling process and making my way through raids is the time to focus on gear. Getting the drop necessary for my class. Augmenting that item to be the best. Making the hard choice between one item vs. another. I probably feel like this because I spent soo long playing a bard and we constantly had to change instruments and weapons to get the best effect possible. I think gear should be the same. This should be the focus to tweak and adjust your attribute stats.
When you have the gear and you have the levels, then I think it’s OK to aim for that hard cap through AA’s. It allows you to change out augments to focus on other beneficial factors for the group, for the raid. But I think that doing so beforehand (during leveling) takes away from the experience. The focus should be on gear. Min\Max at the end game.
LeonSanborn said:Moarcrits said:LeonSanborn said:Oh my lord you two. Do you guys need time out time in the corner? or would you guys like to join us again at the grown up table and have a civilized conversation without arguing and showing who has the bigger penis? Grow the **** up and stop arguing, This is a forums for discussions and debates not petty disputes, if you guys have a problem keep it in the damn Private Messages.
Moar you did a great example of explaining how it is "Done" when adjusting stats and power.
Everyone has had great ideas in general, But shutting ideas down without asking more explanation is pretty childish.
I personally like the idea of you have a designated amount of Allot Stat you can move around upon character creation but then maybe giving 1-5 new stat points per expasnion release (depends on time between expacs) then the ability to rearrange your points but not all just some of the points. So when the next expac comes around you can only change the ones you have recieved from the prior expac and the new ones you have just recently recieved.
Wasnt aware I needed more explanation. The ideas were very clearly explained, I shut them down with facts, not opinions. Im not sure why I need more explanation on a feature thats not complex to understand nor is a good idea, again, which I backed up with solid argument as to why it was a bad idea.
Just because I disagree with someone and put facts forward as to why its a bad idea doesnt mean Ive violated safe spaces. Im open to discussing features, just dont be upset when I shoot them down by backing up what I say with very real scenarios.
No you only shut down an idea and gave your idea and why your opinion was "better", Every Idea can be implemented, BUT the game developers (VISONARY REALMS) can make what ever they want and choose what ever they want, if they want us to be a floating hamster like a golf ball in mid air then they can. NO idea is a bad idea, some are just better than others. This IS the forums where ANY idea and opinion can be voiced, but to say that YOURS is the best and there is no other way type of thinking does not belong here. Put a crowbar in the brick inbetween that hamster wheel in your head and pry it out and the wheel might start turning.
Never said mine was the best, but please, instead of saying "ALL OF THE IDEAS!" why dont you refute what I said in a logical manner with facts? Thats what were here to discuss right? Or would you prefer to just say how me pointing out the flaws isnt very nice?
Ill wait.
Drac346 said:I do not like the idea of stat allocation beyond the initial character creation (except maybe a limited AA model). I think your character is born with stats and lives with those stats. I think doing stats afterwards detracts from equipment augmentation and enhancements. If you want more Str, wear Str gear. If you’re a bard and want Cha for songs, then make sure you equip items that either have high cha, or augment those items with more Cha.
I did like the idea in EQ2 with soft and hard caps for skills\stats. In this setup I don’t mind the AA model as long as it is controlled and limited. AA’s are basically augments for your character similar to an augment for a piece of gear. Again, keeping to a hard and soft cap.
To me, the leveling process and making my way through raids is the time to focus on gear. Getting the drop necessary for my class. Augmenting that item to be the best. Making the hard choice between one item vs. another. I probably feel like this because I spent soo long playing a bard and we constantly had to change instruments and weapons to get the best effect possible. I think gear should be the same. This should be the focus to tweak and adjust your attribute stats.
When you have the gear and you have the levels, then I think it’s OK to aim for that hard cap through AA’s. It allows you to change out augments to focus on other beneficial factors for the group, for the raid. But I think that doing so beforehand (during leveling) takes away from the experience. The focus should be on gear. Min\Max at the end game.
Excellent post. Agreed all the way.
Moarcrits said:Never said mine was the best, but please, instead of saying "ALL OF THE IDEAS!" why dont you refute what I said in a logical manner with facts? Thats what were here to discuss right? Or would you prefer to just say how me pointing out the flaws isnt very nice?
Ill wait.
You do not need to physically say that yours is the best because actions speak louder than words buddy. But I am not here to argue with you, please go back to your time out little corner and maybe grow up a little before rejoining the big boy table seeing as you cannot work well with others. There is also no need for FACTS when this is for POOL OF IDEAS, anything can be done in a "VIRTUAL WORLD" also known as a "VIDEO GAME", SURE insights on HOW they do the formula is nice, BUT that wont and will not stop them from looking through the POOL OF IDEAS, and be like OOUH that one is nice, lets try that out!.
So please if you are going to continue being an ****** remove your self from this forum thread.
I think the key is middle ground between for and against. For me personally, I like anything that makes my character feel unique. Even if it is something very small. If you allow stat allocation to have a drastic impact on performance then it leads to the above mentioned cookie cutter builds etc. I would rather have allocation be VERY small portion to the overall character. Lets just take a scale of 0-100, only being able to allocate 3 points (1 point every 20 levels starting at 10) would do it for me. Would I have incredibly more strength or wisdom than others? Not really.
If there was a way to allow players to allocate points to things that are not stats or attribute base but maybe some form of aesthetic / cosmetic / fluff, it would be a neat way to propel an idea of having "unique" characters without it actually affecting performance and dictating min max choices. (even though min maxing is something I like to do as well)
There is no need to be so aggressive to each other folks, we are all on the same team here, I will be forced to clean the thread up if it continues so please stop and think before you post. Having a different idea or opinion to someone else doesn't mean the world is ending! Just move on ;)
Talking about being the best at your class..testing abilities, practicing rotations, trial and error...all that excited the crap out of me. When I pick a class to play, I want to play it the best. I'm always looking to improve myself when I decide on a class. I want the server to know my name...in a good way of course.
It is a little disingenuous saying that adding points to a stat is an artificial way of boosting a character. The exact same could be said of gear or spell buffs adding to those stats. Likewise, touting the KISS process isn’t the best idea. For example, here is the most simple and clean way of managing characters and abilities: Generate stats on character creation and never increment them again – via levels or gear or spells. Nice and simple!
As for game balance, specifically using raids as an example, if the devs plan this around gear maxing out stats for the class, it is not hard to do this for raw stats plus gear also (which will happen regardless, just now we’re talking about an increase in the raw number). If we’re talking about a level 25 raid, where the gear would add +10 to STA and a tank has 100HP due to the increase in STA, but a few extra points in STA via levels makes that 110 HP, then you design the raid around that. If some tanks don’t add those extra points into STA but rather INT, then they can’t tank quite as long but they can make up for it in other ways. An extra lifetap or heal, an extra shield bash…whatever. Yes, this is not following the KISS principle, but it is not making it exponentially more difficult for the devs to balance and in exchange it makes character much more interesting. If a guild does a gear/stat check and rejects you for a raid based on the results, and you find this distasteful, then find another guild. Everquest was far more social than the modern day MMOs and people will help with raids and dungeons just because they can.
All in all, I like the idea of a small increase in stats from levelling (maybe 1 per level) but I understand there are opinions and arguments against. Luckily we’re in pre-alpha and this is a discussion where we’re not trying to shut people down but rather explore options J
Yeaaa … morecrits, that wasn’t very friendly of you. But I understand you want the game to not be like WoW. Neither do I. We are on the same side.
I sent my last response via mobile so I didn’t really have time to give it justice. Stats to me are boring, they don’t mean very much. And when they DO mean a LOT, a bunch of bad things can happen.
So here is my thought process if we had a system which let us plug in stats but not let us refine them later.
A person beginning the game wants to ‘play’ the game. They may not fully understand what they are committing to as they plug their stats in early into the game. Perhaps a mistake is made and continues to be made each time the player puts in more stats. Hey it’s their first time playing and they think they are doing the right thing! They find it terribly difficult to level up and the worst part is when the person is told they did it wrong … irreversible damage has already been done for SEVERAL levels.
If this player somehow struggles to maximum level and still has no outlet for fixing something they didn’t know the gravity of … well, I’ll feel bad for them. I’d hate to be in a situation where I have to choose to delete my character and start over.
Think about all the friends you had you can’t group with. Leveling up takes a long time!
Think about all the items and gear and experience you had … you are throwing it all away.
This is your first character, you may have spent a whole day thinking about how you are going to design his face to look just like a famous actor, or your favorite book character. It doesn’t matter.
At the end of this road is a struggle where you lose more than you gain. That’s the way I see it. It would be nice to be one of those players who just made a mistake on ‘one’ of his levels. Then again the OCD will kill me-having that one point in charisma I don’t need. Lol.
I care a lot about ‘customer experience’ through my line of business. It’s important to treat others with a high level of respect. People are very sensitive to feeling shamed, like most of us. I try my best not to cause something like that, and I think we should all strive to be friendly with each other. If you do not agree, you can say you do not agree and the reason why. But when you take it down a road of belittlement or crude sarcasm … well, that’s when it’s time to cool down. Sometimes I need to cool down also. We are human.
But about ‘customer experience’.
I want people who play Paragon to have a good time the FIRST time they play the game. I don’t want their investment into the game to be a waste. Re-playability will happen through the want to play other classes or other races. So when I thought of ‘meaningful stats’ all I could really imagine are these bad situations where ‘mistakes’ happen which cause players to just hate themselves later for making simple mistakes and not knowing the gravity of them.
Here’s a fun story I gotta tell you-mabye it will help you all see where I’m coming from.
I love Pokemon, but I don’t play it anymore.
The reason why is because of stats.
There are IV points EV points and a slew of other things like EGG moves you get from breeding. Getting these stats perfect literally takes days of playtime. (And the playtime itself is tedious and boring, involving little to no serious fighting) And pokemon you find in the wild, or your starter pokemon you have to go through the game with does NOT have the option of being IV or EV trained or having Egg moves.
I felt bad, that the pokemon I got originally, who I battled with the ENTIRE game, was just built ‘wrong’. He was weaker than what I could ‘build’ through selective breeding and IV and EV point control.
To me going through the game with that ‘weak’ pokemon was really fun. But I knew if I wanted to compete with my friends I’d have to throw him away. It was stupid I couldn’t make the pokemon I’ve had so many experiences with into the best pokemon he could be. He could only be terrible.
And that’s why I don’t really care for stats.
The gameplay, your groups, your guild, the dungeons you do and the gear, GEAR, PHAT LEWTS you collect-THAT has meaning. Those points you put in when you start the game and every level. Sorry, I just can’t see that being as fun. I’m not a big fan of it and may never be. But we can disagree and that’s fine. I like to talk with everyone-and you moarcrits.
Maybe my opinion will change, I’d love that. So I will listen to what everyone has to say.
-Todd
Sounds to me like there were a couple of bad mechanics in that game Todd. First that it was tedious and boring to get the stats and skills that were applied to your pet. Second, there was no path to modify them.
I get the impression that you really had a sense of value in the first pet you built and you really didnt want to stop using that original pet. So you did enjoy the game and you did want to continue with the pet you originally built. You just wanted to tweak him to be as effective as you could make him. Wouldnt it have been nice if you could alter your original choices?
And you bring to the front another factor for why being able to change stats you've applied is important. The first time anyone plays through the game they will not have a sense for what the end-game is like. Almost all games hit a different focus of play after the leveling is done, and that were never previously a priotiy become so. There's no way to just know which stats are going to be important when you're raiding at cap level because in many cases they will be different than the stats that were important while you were leveling up.
In the end I wholly agree with Umbra's stance that keeping it simple can be the wrong choice. Not always, but sometimes. Taking a new approach and trying a new thing is never easy. It's sometimes scarey. It's almost always diffiicult. But the payoff can be huge. That's why I think it's critical to challenege my own thinking and consider options I might not even initially like. It's why I'll at least help provide options for mechanics that dont even sound fun to me because I want to give it at least an intellectual chance.
I understand why you want to be able to re-allocate your stats (if stars could be allocated) because you took the time and effort to level your character. You've grown with that character, you've explored, met friends, acquired gear..all that good stuff. But we have to stop and think, pantheon will have the system to retire that said character and for you to start all over, which most, if not all, people will do due to its bonus/benefits it gives. So, when reading your post about starting a character over due to stats being incorrect, it seems like many of us will be restarting characters anyway (even though 1 scenario gives you a bonus upon starting over). Not sure how I feel about it, I'll wait for more info on the progeny system I guess.
Yeah, I'm really not feeling to amped about the progeny system because I feel such in investment in a character that I level up and gear and gain achievements with, etc. Even in a game like wow where you can level to max in no time, and where achievements are account wide in a lot of cases, I'll still go get those same achievements on a new character because I feel that each character has a defined personality and background. It's not about my account at all. It's about each character.
But I've certainly made mistakes with characters I wish I could correct. And there have been evolutions in the games that make me wish I could alter things. Those possibliites should not create a fear of irreperable allocations of anything, whether it's stat points or factions or which pet you picked.
Feyshtey said:Yeah, I'm really not feeling to amped about the progeny system because I feel such in investment in a character that I level up and gear and gain achievements with, etc.
Same here Fey. I am hoping new info might change my impression but I barely level alts in mmos. I usually stick with one character.
It's not about my account at all. It's about each character.
I feel the same. Investments which turn out to be failures in the end don't seem to be a good place to put 'rewarding gameplay experience.'
I'm all for making the game difficult just to be clear, but there's a way to do it right. I personally don't think 'irreversable stats' are the way to go about it.
-Todd
Kobrashade said:Feyshtey said:Yeah, I'm really not feeling to amped about the progeny system because I feel such in investment in a character that I level up and gear and gain achievements with, etc.
Same here Fey. I am hoping new info might change my impression but I barely level alts in mmos. I usually stick with one character.
I am hoping to stick with one character but the simple solution scares me a bit. It reminds me of GW2. That cookie cutter mess is exactly what we don't want IMO. However I have been worng before.
Good discussion.
Ox
I don't see a problem with players allocating stat points each level or every so many levels. As long as they are locked in after they are entered and can not be changed afterwards then I'm fine with that. Maybe a one time change but nothing more. You should be responsible for your choices.
VG allowed players to adjust their stats as they leveled and was considered by many to have one of the best raiding environments, and personally to me was my favorite time raiding. So claiming that allowing players to adjust their own stats makes development of this harder seems debateable at best.
As long as stats have good and deep meaning we can avoid the 'cookie cutter' dilemma. I'd like to see all classes be able to benefit from all stats. An example would be 'strength'. If strength affected your weight capacity and the more strength you had the more you could carry, then wizards and casters could benefit from actually placing points in strength. If 'wisdom' increased crit percentage then warriors and rogues and physical based classes could benift from upping their wisdom.
OR let's say that strength doesn't affect ANY trait that casters could benefit from. If there were different viable builds that utilized intelligence and wisdom differently this could help avoid the cookie cutter as well. For example a wizard could invest heavily into int to do more damage or they could rely on wis for a larger mana pool ultimately creating TWO play styles for the class.
It's 2016, I can garauntee you that stat allocation is not creating 'challenges' for the devs at VRi. Allowing players to adjust their own stats as they level is not making the devs lives harder with designing raid content/bosses. The real challenge lies in how the devs utilize these stats and how much depth they can give the classes by creating meaningful stats. But if the stats are one dimensional and the only thing strength affects is heavy fighters, dexterity only affects light fighters, int only affects casters, and wis solely affects healers then yeah why would players ever need to allocate any of their stats? I'm hoping for something a lot more deeper than this though.
edit. IF big changes are made down the road with expansions or what-not that would affect how stats affect players then I'd say there should be a one-time possibility of changing your stats. Placing your stats knowing how they will affect your character along the way is one thing and you should be thoughtful on how you act but if the game changes things that you cannot foresee then you should have the ability to make changes. Maybe with that xpac where the big changes were made you are given a scroll that allows you to re-train your stats or something.
I'm not saying I'm for or against stat points, I'm still up in the air, as well as up in the air about progeny. I think there was another thread about how progeny could work without retiring a character, like leveling an alt would apply benefits to your main rather than deleting your main and starting over. Again I need more information on progeny before I start blowing it up...anyway, not on topic for this thread, back to stat allocation. Not sure about original EQ, but I remember EQOA ( Everquest Online Adventures) allowed re-allocation through an item called rose of renewal (iirc). Which was pretty rare and costed quite a bit of cash... going off pure memory though.
I would be opposed to stat allocation while leveling. I prefer the allocation at character creation and then learn to adapt based off that decision. Basically, whatever stats you ended up choosing would then cause you to tailor your gear selection to best supplement what stats you're lacking. One of the reasons EQ didn't always have the BiS gear piece the same for everyone was due to major differing stats via races and starting stat selections (at least Launch-Velious).
Another idea I had proposed in the past was to make sure that characters were never able to make the max stat cap in all stats - ever, even after expansions. Continue to make the original race selections matter, make your gear selection matter, and also it would continue to add the need for a variety stat based gear pieces versus one BiS for all.
Lastly, a bit off topic, but more important than stat allocation to me is that VRI would have to take into account to not create extremely advantageous races after launch like the Iksar/Necro Iksar/Monk combo that basically trivializes all other options due to the innate regen (racial bonus), which is far more penalizing then not allocating 30 stat points correctly.
tehtawd said:
A person beginning the game wants to ‘play’ the game. They may not fully understand what they are committing to as they plug their stats in early into the game. Perhaps a mistake is made and continues to be made each time the player puts in more stats. Hey it’s their first time playing and they think they are doing the right thing! They find it terribly difficult to level up and the worst part is when the person is told they did it wrong … irreversible damage has already been done for SEVERAL levels.
If this player somehow struggles to maximum level and still has no outlet for fixing something they didn’t know the gravity of … well, I’ll feel bad for them. I’d hate to be in a situation where I have to choose to delete my character and start over.
-Todd
To be honest though, typically in most MMO's when you are creating your character and picking your class. If there is any type of Stat allocation it typically tells you that your class uses, "uses intelligence" if lets say you are playing a Wizard. Then on top of that, stat allocation is kinda common sense, maybe not to new gamers but if they did not read any of the class description its kinda their fault for not knowing what stats are suitable for what class.
The class descriptions should even say what their armor and weapon groups are.
You even have your stats that give you a description of what they do, Such as "Str increases your carry weight, and is highly suitable for melee users" or something along those lines.
Granted I do believe in some sort of way of resetting your stats, but I believe it should be something Hard to get (should not be available for purchase through RL money) and/or expensive with in-game currency. A great example that someone had said earlier was the Rose from EQOA.
In 1999, for me, the idea of gaming online was new. I had dial up in 1999. A friend tells me about EQ and even offered to pay me back if I didn't like it.
I get the game and I am making a Cleric and I had like 20-ish points to where I wanted. I had No clue what I was doing so I put 5 in strength, 5 in Dex, 5 in stam, and the rest into wisdom.
Basically, I wasted 15 points and it was permanent. I had a MUCH harder time getting to WIS cap in Kunark but I still managed to do it with smart gear choices.
I feel it needs to be the Same Way in PANTHEON. Permanent. This isn't 1999 and MMO's aren't new. Knowing what stats you need isn't rocket science. Pick em and live with those choices.
I don't want Freebie stats handed out every few levels either. This isn't World of Warcraft for Dummies. I don't want to be able to put all my points into STR so I can melee from lev 1-5 and then reallocate at lev 6 or 10 because now I am grouping and healing with no need to melee.
How would a warrior feel if a Bracer with 5 STR and 5 STAM dropped and I took it because I knew that next level I would get 5 more wisdom or I could just redo my stats and take 5 out of STAM since I got the bracer and put that back into WIS. No.
Having the ability to redo stats would cause problems like this all the time. I do like AA points from EQ1. They did allow for stat increases if you leveled your AA points, but those came much later in the game. not at launch.
I also don't want to jump into a group and the warrior is getting beat down like a sissy and I am trying to heal him until I run out of mana and the group dies.
The next line in the chat channel is this: Warrior says "doh, forgot that I dumped ALL my points into INT while I was crafting, gimme a min to redo stats" ..... No.
Disband.... Cleric Looking for group!
