ZennExile said:You are motivated to know the fine details, the majority is typically not concerned with them. The majority wants to know what "YOU" think is Best-in-Slot.
ZennExile said:DragonFist said:I've played countless games in the past half century and every game online game in which there was an "Identify" mechanic, dumped it at some point.
Thank you for this confirmation. However, the original post in this thread, clearly establishes at least one reason to make a subtle, and highly nuanced, change, such as the one I have thanklessly presented to you here. Although if you replace everything I have said with "identify scrolls" then yes, fair point.
Pointing out flaws in arguments isn't trolling.
You're not wrong when you say that my forum history is argumentative, but that's for a good reason. The status quo here is pretty terrible in my opinion so I feel obligated to push back on a lot of things.
When someone makes a wild claim like "the average player doesn't care about stats", you can't reasonably expect people to just remain silent and take it as a fact. The word "trolling" has lost all meaning when pushing back against poor arguments is given that label.
Folks, let's be less personal and more respectful please, if you don't like someone's opinion then feel free to ignore or counter it (politely) and move on, it won't have any affect on the game, your life or the universe to do so.
Disagreeing and debating isn't breaking any rules, if it were then we wouldn't have any community members left after 3 years of disagreements! If you put your opinion out there on a public platform make sure you're prepared to have it countered or disputed, if it is weak and cannot withstand being countered or disputed then you need to have the sense to accept it and walk away or come back with something stronger, not complain or ask for moderators to take over.
Let's not turn this into another thread that gets closed after pages of just arguing, please and let's keep it on the topic of "Quick Switching for Gear".
Liav said:Pointing out flaws in arguments isn't trolling.
You're not wrong when you say that my forum history is argumentative, but that's for a good reason. The status quo here is pretty terrible in my opinion so I feel obligated to push back on a lot of things.
When someone makes a wild claim like "the average player doesn't care about stats", you can't reasonably expect people to just remain silent and take it as a fact. The word "trolling" has lost all meaning when pushing back against poor arguments is given that label.
No, what you do Liav is a defense mechanism. I never said what you claim I said. You created a fake quote. I said the majority does not care about the "fine" details. All you ever do is fish for semantic attacks, and if you don't find one, you create one. Just like you did here. I call that trolling. That's the nice version of what I call it though. This is why I never respond to you. You clearly cannot help yourself. Sorry not sorry. Try harder to control yourself. I blocked you, but it does not actually block your posts. Good thing this forum is getting overhauled soon.
Kilsin said:Folks, let's be less personal and more respectful please, if you don't like someone's opinion then feel free to ignore or counter it (politely) and move on, it won't have any affect on the game, your life or the universe to do so.
Disagreeing and debating isn't breaking any rules, if it were then we wouldn't have any community members left after 3 years of disagreements! If you put your opinion out there on a public platform make sure you're prepared to have it countered or disputed, if it is weak and cannot withstand being countered or disputed then you need to have the sense to accept it and walk away or come back with something stronger, not complain or ask for moderators to take over.
Let's not turn this into another thread that gets closed after pages of just arguing, please and let's keep it on the topic of "Quick Switching for Gear".
There is nothing (polite) about misquoting people, and making up a story to attack them based on the misquote you create for the express purpose of attacking them. Semantic attacks are not productive, or debate. They are trolling. When you change what someone says, then attack the new version you made up, you are trolling. That is not a new meme. As you well know.
So this quote, sorta looks like you approving the abuse of new forum members if you put it in context. I wouldn't have made the choice myself. Not as a community manager, and lead moderator. That seems like it will lead to even more personal attacks and semantic arguments rather than avoid them.
Even if you want to revise your past arguments and distill them into a single sentence:
"I said the majority does not care about the "fine" details."
I would still say that it is baseless, considering that you haven't shown any evidence that this is the case. Saying it doesn't make it true. You can't say that I've misquoted you here, although I still feel like the above summary is a relatively accurate rephrasing of your previous arguments.
I would also argue that fundamental mechanics such as stats are very far from "fine" details. Stats on items is one of the most prevalent parts of an RPG, and choosing whether or not they are visible or determined by RNG is a huge decision. That is something that could make or break a game depending on how it's done.
Attacking ideas is not the same as attacking a person. I would hope that we're all here for the betterment of the game that will eventually be, but you have to admit how frustrating it can be to dig through paragraphs of cooking analogies when your point could've been summed up succinctly as it is above.
If I've offended you, I apologize. Let's move on.
ZennExile said:DragonFist said:ZennExile said:DragonFist said:I've played countless games in the past half century and every game online game in which there was an "Identify" mechanic, dumped it at some point.
Thank you for this confirmation. However, the original post in this thread, clearly establishes at least one reason to make a subtle, and highly nuanced, change, such as the one I have thanklessly presented to you here. Although if you replace everything I have said with "identify scrolls" then yes, fair point.
My post was in direct response to the line quoted by me.So did you just take issue with the idea that the motivations of other people can be categorized and predicted to a certain degree? I think that is the essence of all games ever played. And I think a role like what I am describing is long overdue. I've been talking about this specific idea for many years. So maybe I assume more than you because I have been exposed to more opposing viewpoints?
But make no mistake, it is your motivation I am most interested in, and is most relevant at least to me. You are the underserved. The minority. So don't diminish your own value according to statistics, imagine new value. Imagine a means to amplify your minority perspective without taking away from those who don't share it.
"There are many ways to catch a Gnome. But max Fishing Skill is how you catch the best Gnome. Because the traps break their little legs, and they rarely live long enough or gain weight after that."
Do you see how I turned nothing into something in this quote? Those 4 sentences, or 3.5 whatever you want to call it, tell a far more detailed story. One that also directly correlates to a completely disconnected topic. But the rules are the same. You can turn nothing into something. I do it all the time.
Your motivations being directly manipulated should, tell me if I am wrong, represent your objective and subjective goals for any and all RolePlaying Game Experiences. And my part of this discussion is a clinic on how to manipulate motivation to create something from nothing. In other words, creating my favorite thing not born in an Oven, "Synergetic Abundance."
Do you not want to be manipulated to the point where you forget about the Game Mechanics and just enjoy yourself as a meaningful part of the experience?
If you want me to tear your motivations down and engineer an even more meaningful and compelling role in the fine details, you can fill me in. But that brings us right back to, how much information do I really need, or even want you to have, before I manipulate you?
Yes I probably seem... up my own Stuff... about this. But I have been writing about engineering fictional experiences for more than two decades. That's why I try to keep things as... cheeky, as possible. I kill me. #pantsFreeLiving #secretPieStuff
ZennExile said:Liav said:Pointing out flaws in arguments isn't trolling.
You're not wrong when you say that my forum history is argumentative, but that's for a good reason. The status quo here is pretty terrible in my opinion so I feel obligated to push back on a lot of things.
When someone makes a wild claim like "the average player doesn't care about stats", you can't reasonably expect people to just remain silent and take it as a fact. The word "trolling" has lost all meaning when pushing back against poor arguments is given that label.
No, what you do Liav is a defense mechanism. I never said what you claim I said. You created a fake quote. I said the majority does not care about the "fine" details. All you ever do is fish for semantic attacks, and if you don't find one, you create one. Just like you did here. I call that trolling. That's the nice version of what I call it though. This is why I never respond to you. You clearly cannot help yourself. Sorry not sorry. Try harder to control yourself. I blocked you, but it does not actually block your posts. Good thing this forum is getting overhauled soon.
Kilsin said:Folks, let's be less personal and more respectful please, if you don't like someone's opinion then feel free to ignore or counter it (politely) and move on, it won't have any affect on the game, your life or the universe to do so.
Disagreeing and debating isn't breaking any rules, if it were then we wouldn't have any community members left after 3 years of disagreements! If you put your opinion out there on a public platform make sure you're prepared to have it countered or disputed, if it is weak and cannot withstand being countered or disputed then you need to have the sense to accept it and walk away or come back with something stronger, not complain or ask for moderators to take over.
Let's not turn this into another thread that gets closed after pages of just arguing, please and let's keep it on the topic of "Quick Switching for Gear".There is nothing (polite) about misquoting people, and making up a story to attack them based on the misquote you create for the express purpose of attacking them. Semantic attacks are not productive, or debate. They are trolling. When you change what someone says, then attack the new version you made up, you are trolling. That is not a new meme. As you well know.
So this quote, sorta looks like you approving the abuse of new forum members if you put it in context. I wouldn't have made the choice myself. Not as a community manager, and lead moderator. That seems like it will lead to even more personal attacks and semantic arguments rather than avoid them.
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, ZennExile. My words were very clear and the development forum guidelines are very clear. Politeness was mentioned in brackets to encourage the act of being courteous, it is a not a rule, people can be dicks if they want but it will have other consequences within the greater community, something I don't have control over but you folks do.
I wasn't approving anything and making wild accusations against VR staff won't help your cause either my friend, if you feel you can do a better job then I encourage you to submit your application for consideration.
Openly arguing with a moderator is a breach of the guidelines, so I would also encourage you to brush up on the rules found here before continuing down this path: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1595/pantheon-developer-forum-guidelines
Specifically:
No Backseat Moderating - Let Visionary Realms staff do the moderating. Backseat moderating is when people who are not moderators try to enforce the forum rules. If you see a person breaking the rules, take advantage of the Report button and then simply ignore the offensive post(s) or thread.
Repeat Offenders - Should you be pointed to the rules, and continue to argue with ANY member of our Management/Moderating team about the fairness of our rules, you may be banned. We do not have to give any warnings. When we do take the time to give a warning, please learn from it. Don't poke, prod and push to see what the limits are as you will find out pretty quickly and in most cases the decision will not be reversed.
DragonFist said:You said, "Most people aren't motivated to know what the stats on gear are."
No that is what you said.
I said the vast majority of players don't need, or even want, the "fine" details, because they don't. Stat points, on gear, are completely meaningless to the vast majority of players for one simple reason that should be completely and painfully obvious to you, but is somehow not. Once a few people figure out what Best-in-Slot is, there is no longer a need to know the fine details. Someone already figured out what is Best-in-Slot. So the rest no longer matter.
Even if every player in a sample of 2000 players was min/max motivated, and were all compelled to figure out what Best-in-Slot is, once a few of them have figured it out, there is no reason for anyone else to. Do you get it now? The whole point was to REWARD players who "need to know" with a mechanic designed just for them to find out. And would allow a larger population of "Meta Chasers" to take part in the chase. Absolutely everything I suggested was meant to serve that purpose, and expand the value of stat information.
Because this simple modification in "awareness" (there is no real change, yeah I tricked you into thinking there was a change) is all it would take to create this mechanic.
I described how to change the perspective of the player, and use that slight change in perspective to create "Synergetic Abundance".
All stats are plugged into an equation that uses Random Numbers to determine an outcome anyway. So if you change the tooltip to a visual representation, instead of fixed stat values, you can assign the "illusion" of not knowing, to the task of finding out. Creating value out of nothing, and a brand new game mechanic that can act as the foundation for a meaningful experience.
I don't need to prove you wrong, you attacked yourself for me. All of you did. And you even got Kilsin involved. He can ban us all and you poke him like a bee hive... You should stop.
Again, I simply disagreed with your statement. I don't think "The vast majority of players don't need, or even want, the "fine" details, because they don't." is true. I dont' think there is any evidence of it and I see plenty of evidence that the opposite is true.
I didn't get anyone else involved. I've simply stated basically the same statement about four times now. I'll state it one more time:
Most people want to know the stats and details of their items. It is necessary to know what items are useful for what situations and if items are upgrades. Even the most casual players that I have ever known have sought out knowing these things.
That is it. That is all that I've said in response to your posts in this thread. That is what I meant. I meant what I said and nothing else. There is no hidden meaning. There is no attempt to attack you. I simply do not agree that most people don't want to know these details.
In many ways, this 'Best in Slot' (BiS) argument is a symptom of 'casual creep' into MMOs.
1. Obscured stats to 'simplify':
While hiding the actual stat numbers on an item may seem a step forwards; perhaps replacing item stats with broad stat-range labels such as 'good', 'very fast' or merely using colours to represent 'rarity' (such as 'Blue items' > 'Green items'), these do not remove the BiS 'issue' many have. It merely pushes DEV imagined item worth onto the player (since it is the DEVs who decide what is green, blue etc) ... something which only benefits the casual player. Others will rely on posted 'BiS tables'.
2. Obscured RNG incorporated into items:
It seems to me that any RNG that is incorporated into an item will either have (i) a small range of effect on the item stats or (ii) a large range of effect on the item stats. For case (i) the effects are marginally different from point #1 (above) and will be ignored by the majority of players. For case (ii) you will have created an artificial time sink into item gain ... any items which do not perform well compared to others (in some form of standardised 'kill the level 20 orc 10x' test) will be dismantled. Casual players will use them 'as is' (since they lack time to find better) while all but the most ADHD of min/maxers will settle for a 'middling or better' version (by relying on a posted 'BiS table'.)
The answer, it seems to me, is found in a completely different direction ....
... a direction which also answers the OP's actual question about item swapping.
A. Classes must fall into a unique role.
This is essential to ensure that the 'primary' and 'secondary' stats for each Class differ, even within that role.
- Eg difference in 'important' stats between Paladin and Warrior builds, even though both are 'tank' roles.
B. All stats need to have skills/mechanics that depend on them.
Any stat without an in-game dependence will be ignored; thus, by extension, so will any item containing this stat.
There should be a wide range of skills/mechanics which use 2-3 stats to determine how effective they are.
These stat dependencies should be logical/consistent.
C. As items get more powerful, there should be more flexibiity in stats for them.
A weak (eg Lev 1-15) item would have few (0-3) stats on it, but all such would be fixed.
A minor (eg Lev 10-25) item would have some (1-3) stats on it, but some form of slot/augment system to allow a few to be added.
A major (eg Lev 20-40) item would have some (2-4) stats on it, but some form of slot/augment system to allow a few to be enhanced/added.
A powerful (eg Lev 35-50) item would have some (2-4) stats on it, a possible (0-1) proc/clicky, and some form of slot/augment system to allow a few to be enhanced/added.
D. Crafting can potentially add/amend item stats.
If crafting is a source of adding/amending items, whether by 'up-forging' directly (such as the current VR idea for improving items at a cost of making them no-drop) or by adding augments into slots, then this will allow players to create 'variations on a theme' for nearly all items.
What does all this accomplish?
A simple system such as this allows flexibility in weapon stats. With more moving parts, it no longer becomes a 'BiS for all' applicable for all players, irrespective of class/build. It now develops into a 'situational BiS' dependent on Class, Play-style (i.e. Build), context (enemy/encounter type) etc, since the item-meta allows for many items to all be 'BiS' for different combinations of player/challenge.
For me, the perfect system would be stats reflecting the creation process!
Eg: Mithril Longsword of Awesomeness
Base: Mithril (+25) of High Quality (+10)
Forged: Master Smithed (+10) made extra light (Wt -20%, Parry -10, STA cost -10%)
Enchanted: Journeyman Accuracy (+5),
Runed: (1) Lesser Light rune (5' radius, torch) (2) Resist Fire (+5% RR) (3) Resist Lightning (+5 RR)
Augment: (1) Major Emerald of healing (Regen +2hp/tick held) (2) Relic Emerald of health (clicky, Heal +250hp, 3/day)
All this gives a Longsword :
+50 to hit, -10 parry, STA use -10%, glows like a weak torch, +5 Resist Fire/Lightning
Held (regen +2hp/tick), Clicky 3x/day heal +250hp.
Great vs Fire Trolls, not so good vs Ice Skellies. Less useful for a Pally probably. Maybe best for a Ranger, so he can be 2nd to die, not 1st.
TL;DR
There is no need to 'dumb down' item stats/descriptors. If items are 'the sum of their parts', and all game stats have use, then there will always be more than one BiS for any given circumstance. Certainly, there will inevitably be some great combination that turns out to be 'best' for a given class fighting a given enemy.... but this will be rarer than the standard 'item X' is always BiS for all players/this class.
This means players will have a few 'versatile' items rather than whole 'sets of gear' to have to switch between.
Evoras, typed waaay too much this time, and may have lost sight of his point!
Evoras said:In many ways, this 'Best in Slot' (BiS) argument is a symptom of 'casual creep' into MMOs.
1. Obscured stats to 'simplify':
While hiding the actual stat numbers on an item may seem a step forwards; perhaps replacing item stats with broad stat-range labels such as 'good', 'very fast' or merely using colours to represent 'rarity' (such as 'Blue items' > 'Green items'), these do not remove the BiS 'issue' many have. It merely pushes DEV imagined item worth onto the player (since it is the DEVs who decide what is green, blue etc) ... something which only benefits the casual player. Others will rely on posted 'BiS tables'.
2. Obscured RNG incorporated into items:
It seems to me that any RNG that is incorporated into an item will either have (i) a small range of effect on the item stats or (ii) a large range of effect on the item stats. For case (i) the effects are marginally different from point #1 (above) and will be ignored by the majority of players. For case (ii) you will have created an artificial time sink into item gain ... any items which do not perform well compared to others (in some form of standardised 'kill the level 20 orc 10x' test) will be dismantled. Casual players will use them 'as is' (since they lack time to find better) while all but the most ADHD of min/maxers will settle for a 'middling or better' version (by relying on a posted 'BiS table'.)
The answer, it seems to me, is found in a completely different direction ....
... a direction which also answers the OP's actual question about item swapping.A. Classes must fall into a unique role.
This is essential to ensure that the 'primary' and 'secondary' stats for each Class differ, even within that role.
- Eg difference in 'important' stats between Paladin and Warrior builds, even though both are 'tank' roles.B. All stats need to have skills/mechanics that depend on them.
Any stat without an in-game dependence will be ignored; thus, by extension, so will any item containing this stat.
There should be a wide range of skills/mechanics which use 2-3 stats to determine how effective they are.
These stat dependencies should be logical/consistent.C. As items get more powerful, there should be more flexibiity in stats for them.
A weak (eg Lev 1-15) item would have few (0-3) stats on it, but all such would be fixed.
A minor (eg Lev 10-25) item would have some (1-3) stats on it, but some form of slot/augment system to allow a few to be added.
A major (eg Lev 20-40) item would have some (2-4) stats on it, but some form of slot/augment system to allow a few to be enhanced/added.
A powerful (eg Lev 35-50) item would have some (2-4) stats on it, a possible (0-1) proc/clicky, and some form of slot/augment system to allow a few to be enhanced/added.D. Crafting can potentially add/amend item stats.
If crafting is a source of adding/amending items, whether by 'up-forging' directly (such as the current VR idea for improving items at a cost of making them no-drop) or by adding augments into slots, then this will allow players to create 'variations on a theme' for nearly all items.
What does all this accomplish?
A simple system such as this allows flexibility in weapon stats. With more moving parts, it no longer becomes a 'BiS for all' applicable for all players, irrespective of class/build. It now develops into a 'situational BiS' dependent on Class, Play-style (i.e. Build), context (enemy/encounter type) etc, since the item-meta allows for many items to all be 'BiS' for different combinations of player/challenge.
For me, the perfect system would be stats reflecting the creation process!
Eg: Mithril Longsword of Awesomeness
Base: Mithril (+25) of High Quality (+10)
Forged: Master Smithed (+10) made extra light (Wt -20%, Parry -10, STA cost -10%)
Enchanted: Journeyman Accuracy (+5),
Runed: (1) Lesser Light rune (5' radius, torch) (2) Resist Fire (+5% RR) (3) Resist Lightning (+5 RR)
Augment: (1) Major Emerald of healing (Regen +2hp/tick held) (2) Relic Emerald of health (clicky, Heal +250hp, 3/day)All this gives a Longsword :
+50 to hit, -10 parry, STA use -10%, glows like a weak torch, +5 Resist Fire/Lightning
Held (regen +2hp/tick), Clicky 3x/day heal +250hp.Great vs Fire Trolls, not so good vs Ice Skellies. Less useful for a Pally probably. Maybe best for a Ranger, so he can be 2nd to die, not 1st.
TL;DR
There is no need to 'dumb down' item stats/descriptors. If items are 'the sum of their parts', and all game stats have use, then there will always be more than one BiS for any given circumstance. Certainly, there will inevitably be some great combination that turns out to be 'best' for a given class fighting a given enemy.... but this will be rarer than the standard 'item X' is always BiS for all players/this class.
This means players will have a few 'versatile' items rather than whole 'sets of gear' to have to switch between.Evoras, typed waaay too much this time, and may have lost sight of his point!
Evoras said:TL;DR
There is no need to 'dumb down' item stats/descriptors. If items are 'the sum of their parts', and all game stats have use, then there will always be more than one BiS for any given circumstance. Certainly, there will inevitably be some great combination that turns out to be 'best' for a given class fighting a given enemy.... but this will be rarer than the standard 'item X' is always BiS for all players/this class.
This means players will have a few 'versatile' items rather than whole 'sets of gear' to have to switch between.Evoras, typed waaay too much this time, and may have lost sight of his point!
No no no. Losing sight of my point, talking about what you think, nothing could be more fun to read. Keep going =)
I agree with the idea of dumbing down or simplifying stats on items being counter productive. On the contrary, I am suggesting instead to amplify their importance, increase the level of complexity associated with discovering what items are in whatever blanket situation you assign a value of BiS to, and extend the "online guide" threshold. You touched on pretty much everything else. The overall mechanic is based on nothing but awareness of the stats. And presented as a way for min/max players to have a tradeskill or secondary skill like Fishing, act as a platform, instead of internet forums, for their deployment of the aforementioned BiS tables.
If that skill were to offer say, a group benefit, by taking the probability cloud (that is already technically in place in the engine) and shrinking it to return higher values for a set amount of time. Like SoW for stat rolls, you've got yourself something.
The whole idea is to trade nothing but awareness, for a new facet of game experience. And I think it would be fun. Fun enough to neglect my fishing skill, almost.
Liav... We have not always agreed but I have always respected your thoughtful input to discussions.
DragonFist... the same for you. Ive always respected your posts and your input to threads.
Both you and Liav have helped me evolve in regards to modern MMOs and my thinking towards them. Please keep sharing your insights.
jpedrote... Thank you for your post and trying to clarify some things for those of us who were not up-to-date on this thread. I appreciate it greatly.
Thread cleaned up, multiple posts have been removed (almost a full page worth of insults and arguing over opinions) some due to quoting removed posts.
I will not close the thread due to others who are providing valuable contributions to the thread but I will remove off-topic or personal posts without warning, continuing to post them will also result in further action against your account as it is disruptive to the community, so please take this into consideration before posting.
I am not a fan of a quick switch for gear. I am also not a fan of being able to carry five suits of armor in my back pack! I am looking for an mmo where making choices prior to adventuring is meaningful. And you may make the wrong choice at times!
That being said i have no issue with magical bags of holding and the such but it should take time to fish out what your looking for and then taking off what you currently have equipped and putting on something else. Beasts of burden would be nice to mules, horses, giant lizards whatever. Again it should be a choice do i bring a pack animal so i can carry a few spare suits of armor.....Will the pack animal be safe while i delve into a dungeon. will it still be there when i exit the dungeon?
I suppose i am not a fan of the instant gratification which most new mmo's cater too. Instant travel, Quick switch gear, absurd carrying capacity in backpacks, Trivial Death penalties and the like...
I never looked at quick switching gear as a source of "instant gratification." If the game allows 4-5 sets of gear to be viable/exemplary in one session, I feel that promotes long term progression. That means there is no universal BiS gear set and that there might be an advantage to having 5 breastplates on your person as a part of the plan for your upcoming adventure. To me, this is the opposite of instant gratification. From what I have seen/heard, I highly doubt we'll be able to quick switch gear while in combat. Gear, much like spells/abilities, seems to be a part of the "preparation phase" of combat ... but let's be realistic, if we were allowed to switch our gear mid-fight, that would not be the same as a feature that caters to instant gratification. As many have expressed, it would be a layer of tedium that most players wouldn't want to deal with. As Lentik pointed out though, rather than using macros to shift to your ice set to mitigate ice damage, then pop another macro to switch to fire to mitigate fire damage (in the same fight) -- maybe something like this can be accomplished with runes or something else.
I am a fan of any mechanic that allows players to use micro management to enhance their character output. I don't want to play a super twitchy game but as someone who has always played a tank, I really hope there is a "skill check" involved with maintaining aggro or casting the right defensive boon at the right time for optimal results. If we can't switch gear/abilities in the middle of a fight, that eliminates the possibility of shifting tactics mid-fight (ala "dynamic combat") from two major sources of progression. I think it would be nice if certain abilities have positional requirements for bonus effect, IE; While standing in front of a mob, and within 1 M radius, taunt is 15% more effective. Another example ... silencing blow ... rather than it just being an attack that can temporarily silence a mob, allow the ability to generate bonus hate "if" a spell is succesfully interrupted while using it. I really hope to see this sort of "conditional logic" used as a means of maintaining aggro.
As far as survivability goes, it could be as simple as not auto-attacking a mob while it has a buff that causes 100% riposte chance. Positioning should be very important ... never have your back exposed to a mob as it prevents you from being able to block/parry/riposte (and also gives certain creatures the "flanking" quadrant for backstabs or other positional attacks) -- this is really important when you tank a huge wave of mobs as they always spread out and it's inevitable that some get behind you. On a raid fight, having a badly positioned epic add for more than a couple seconds should be the difference of life/death. Add in fun abilities where mobs use shields that allow them to heal for any incoming damage of a certain type ... this can change during combat and requires people to pay attention to what's going on. Mechanics like that prevent monotony ... but when you have limited hotbars, and let's say someone specializes as a fire mage ... that's just a part of combat RNG. If the mob uses a fire shield, hopefully the fire mage has a way to provide utility or focus his efforts elsewhere so as not to heal the mob.
Anyway ... I like the idea of "quick switching gear" in combat only because it makes gear more meaningful. Seeing as gear is a form of progression, I want it to feel as meaningful as possible. This can still be accomplished in the "proactive phase" prior to engaging combat but as I have mentioned before, if there is too much emphasis on the proactive phase, it can cause adverse effects on the reactive phase. Proactive is good ... it still promotes progression/experience. Reactive is all about on the spot decision making, adjusting tactics mid combat, challenging communication efforts, and adaptability. It sounds like Pantheon will be more focused on the former than the latter and I'm perfectly fine with that ... I like the slow paced combat from back in the day ... but I really hope that VR gets clever in regards to how we can also leverage our reactive skills. It's a major reason why I am also a big fan of XP/Skill chains ... these were "reactive" mechanics that made combat much more fun/engaging and are a big reason why I cite FFXI as a game that should be drawn from.
I'm not really against switching gear during a fight. I am against quick changing an entire wardrobe during a fight and the implications that this brings to combat. If you can switch you out your entire set of armour, then people will. And then everyone has to do it to keep up. Then you, by default, get that mechanic which is very distasteful to me and others.
I love to see characters have a "Bandolier" and a "Wardrobe". The bandolier has the weapons/shield slots and they can be quick changed any time. The wardrobe has the set of armour one wants to wear and it can not be used mid battle. Nothing stopping you from reaching into your bag and changing your gloves or necklace, etc. But no quick switch. Also, all items, whether in the wardrobe or the bandolier must be in one's current inventory, not the bank (Though if you are standing right at the bank, it might allow for quick moving from inventory to bank and back again.)
That covers most bases I think. One can make choices mid battle, but not entire armour sets instantly. And because one can't just switch a whole armor set with one key press, it doesn't become a nessecary fight mechanic.
Cynwulf said:I suppose i am not a fan of the instant gratification which most new mmo's cater too. Instant travel, Quick switch gear, absurd carrying capacity in backpacks, Trivial Death penalties and the like...
There is probably no one posting on these forums that is for instant-gratification mechanics. But for most, it is difficult to imagine a game without at least a few of those shortcuts. That is why people are so defensive about it. Everyone has their own version of what is correct and true to their own personal vision of ideal.
We do know this game will not be catering to modern gratification models. So that much is settled. And you can make plenty of assertions based on knowing that.
That is why I suggested creating new motivations that outweigh the value of these meaningless conflicts in perception. There is no reason to voice support or debate any of these things. So the only possible benefit these conversations have is to think of something new. Or inspire a new perception that has no reason to feel like a quick swap button for gear is a required tool. Repeating things other people are saying to "pick sides" or "show support" is the worst possible way to talk about anything. It ends the conversation.
I mean, knowing what I know about this game, which is admittedly limited, I can say for certain this kind of mechanic won't serve a purpose and shouldn't be allowed during combat. But the motivation for it will still linger in the minds of anyone without a nuanced understanding of what you should expect from this game. For those of you who don't understand why this kind of mechanic is overall meaningless, I recommend you read Brad's blogs, and try to re-digest what has been published about this game so far. They really want to focus heavily on situational preparation, over reactive mechanics.
But that does not mean the conversation is over. It means there are no teams. So the things that make your perspective Unique are the only currency you have in these conversations. Use it. Think about what would motivate you personally to keep your one set of favorite gear, with a handful of situational options, even if the option for quick-swapping could be easily scripted.
So disregard the developer, and other people. Just focus on what would motivate you personally to make a choice between swapping gear with a macro during combat, and keeping a regular set. You are up against the motivation of players to script auto-swapping macros (authorized or not) for small situational gains.
You can't fight that battle, even with popular support, without also offering a more appealing alternative. There will always be some people who feel trapped by some aspect of the game or other, and want an easy escape. To fix that you give them a chew toy filled with peanut butter. So they don't shred your toilet paper all over the house and pee on your pillow. Does that make sense?
First, while I scanned this long thread (sorry for being late), I've not had the time to read it in detail. So my comments are more for the OP....
Yes, inventory manipulation as it relates to wearing the optimial gear for the right encounter is a big part of Pantheon. That said, we hear you loud on clear about item manipulation/storage/organization/potential hassle. And those are smart questions -- I like how you're digging deeper -- saying something like situational gear sounds cool is fine, but those are real concerns: if more items, then how can we avoid extra hassle of dealing with them?
First, it's a UI/Ux issue. If we're going to make a more item-centric game with situational gear being a part of that then it's our responsibility to take as much of the hassle away from you.
Here's a short list of the direction we're headed as it relates to this issue:
1. Players can define Outfits for their characters. That means you can create a set of gear, name it and save it, and then put it on with 1-2 clicks. I think being able to organize, sort, and take on and off Outfits is going to be essential.
2. Containers are going to be very important, possibly more important than many other MMOs at lower levels. While a huge weightless 'Bag of Holding' would still be quite rare, containers that hold more gear and reduce (and eventually remove) the weight of that gear is an important part of inventory management.
3. Sorting and searching for a piece of gear important.
4. Being able to add a Tag to a piece of gear that you can later search for/locate easily is key.
5. Switching to your optimial outfit for the next encounter if primarily about Bosses. There could be a dungeon that has a theme to it (say it's really cold). Then you need to prepare before you enter said dungeon. But we're not stopping there -- in different areas of this dungeon there may be different atmosphere/climates. Our dungeons are huge and I don't see why environmental conditions would remain static. And then there's the bosses. It's quite possible one outfit is serving you well in one region of a dungeon, but then you come across a boss mob that changes that equation (by his behavior/disposition, by the types of spells he/she casts (fire based? cold based? ethereal? etc.). So while you're not swapping outfits constantly, encounter to next encounter, making it a hassle, *special* encounters may encourage you to Outfit yourself in a specific way.
The bottom line is that atmospheres/climates/situational gear are supposed to make the environment matter more (as I sometimes say, let's put the E back in PvE). There supposed to make difficult encounters require different tactics. They *can* be used as 'soft keys' -- in other words, you probably ought to have certain items before you head into this particular region. But don't take that too far and picture a world full of soft keys -- that's something that certainly could be taken too far and we're aware of that.
And the other big thing, as mentioned, is making the boss mobs require different tactics. Death to tank'n'spank mobs (e.g. simple bosses that just have a ton of HP). That's the lazy way out. In Pantheon you'll need to learn the best tactics for a region or a specific mob. Variety is good. Learning how to overcome a particular environment is key. Not simply employing the same tactics regardless of boss mob is important to us.
And this goes beyond having the best gear for the situation. It goes into having the right abilities prepped, the composition of your group, positioning of your party during the battle, etc. One of our goals is trying to minimize repetition, and that includes there being one or only a few ways to deal with every important mob.
Outside it could mean that you approach an encounter differently depending on weather conditions (again, making E important, not just pretty because we made rain or snow look cool). Inside there could be rooms filled with absolute darkness, or areas of high pressure, etc. Then again add in there different dispositions and behaviors -- having particular mobs choose different tactics during the battle and having to learn the right way to counteract those behaviors is a big part of the game.
Bottom line we think all of the above and more will make for a better MMO and is part of our efforts to move the genre forward (again I always am compelled to let you guys know we are not making an emulator of EQ or VG or any other game). Players of past MMOs should feel right at home, and in that case we are making spiritual successors. It's who we are, it's what's in our blood. We are not content with simply re-creating the past.
But that being said, we are acutely aware that this also means a powerful UI that helps you deal with, in this case, inventory mangement. That's on us. And we take it very seriously.
Lastly, restrictions on when and where you can swap gear (particularly in and out of combat) is TBD right now. We want to mess with it in alpha and beta.
@Aradune
Thanks for the update. I have speculated about many of the very things you have talked about above. Particularly about having decently quick access to different gear sets in a multi-atmosphere dungeon. I really love the direction this is taking and the general direction of needing to be prepared. So not just in terms of gear but also with skills and spells, you cant just get a "best" load out for all situations. I could see a situation where sometimes your most powerful/effective spell might be the worst for a specific encounter. Really cant emphasize enough how much I loved this post. Thanks again!