If so then this is probably not the game for you. I recommend BDO.
So many younger players today have no experience with an MMO that rewards skill, tactics, creativity and skilled group play. This is no kill 1000 ogres, then a 1000 trolls, then put your drops into the slot machine, pull the lever and hope improved gear pops out. And if not, go back and grind thousands more.
AA and BDO have kids thinking they can solo mind-numbingly grind endlessly for best-in-class armor and weapons, and then P2W/RNG it even higher. Those games are feeding OCD and gambling addicitions, sad to say.
As a veteran of Brad's prior games, I can pretty confidently say, that will not be happening in Pantheon. It was not that way in EQ, and not in VG. Well at least until SoE got a hold of VG and introduced the grind for gear mechanic.
Technically, there are many ways to grind for gear. Some people consider camping the same mob/mobs for hours grinding for gear. Don't get me wrong I agree with the fact that it is not and will not be BDO/AA but technically speaking if you want BiS gear in any game you grind it. Doing the same raids over and over is still technically grinding it.
Enitzu said:Technically, there are many ways to grind for gear. Some people consider camping the same mob/mobs for hours grinding for gear. Don't get me wrong I agree with the fact that it is not and will not be BDO/AA but technically speaking if you want BiS gear in any game you grind it. Doing the same raids over and over is still technically grinding it.
True but that form of grinding is based on actually being there and doing the encounters. If you can't do the enounter you won't get the gear. No amount of grinding will fix that for you. If you don't have the skill you don't get the reward. I think that is the point that the OP was trying to make.
I generally agree with your statement, but the title may have been worded slightly better :) Not sure where this is coming from because I haven't seen any posts asking for BIS to come from random drops. :P
I believe that you should be able to grind certain mobs for long periods of time fighting against RNG to get quite good items, but IMHO BIS should only be coming from top tier raiding/dungeons, and schematics/materials for crafting, which also come from top tier raiding/dungeons, or from some rare mob that could be considered a top tier raid/dungeon boss. :D
Rachael said:I generally agree with your statement, but the title may have been worded slightly better :) Not sure where this is coming from because I haven't seen any posts asking for BIS to come from random drops. :P
I believe that you should be able to grind certain mobs for long periods of time fighting against RNG to get quite good items, but IMHO BIS should only be coming from top tier raiding/dungeons, and schematics/materials for crafting, which also come from top tier raiding/dungeons, or from some rare mob that could be considered a top tier raid/dungeon boss. :D
I'd also like to see some BiS gear come from crafters as well. Not just raids and high level dungeons. Too many MMOs forget about crafters at the high end of the game. I'm hoping Pantheon won't fall into that trap.
Rachael said:I generally agree with your statement, but the title may have been worded slightly better :) Not sure where this is coming from because I haven't seen any posts asking for BIS to come from random drops. :P
I believe that you should be able to grind certain mobs for long periods of time fighting against RNG to get quite good items, but IMHO BIS should only be coming from top tier raiding/dungeons, and schematics/materials for crafting, which also come from top tier raiding/dungeons, or from some rare mob that could be considered a top tier raid/dungeon boss. :D
I suspect anything could always be worded better, alas.
Where it's coming from? I am an old timer, been around gaming since it was created. I was there for all the great games and crazy evolutions of formats. I try all new games when I can and spend a lot of time watching twitch streams and other medium when I can.
A lot of the current gamer population that I see and hear playing some of the newer grind/p2w/rng games such as BDO and AA have no perspective on games that came before. They seem conditioned to think they don't require anyone else for most of what they are doing, which is usually spending hundreds and hundreds of hours mindlessly grinding simple to kill mobs for their drops.
They think they are better because they started in a grind based game a day earlier than someone else so are thus 24hrs ahead of them, and have slightly better gear from that grinding.
And when they drop said gear into the RNG slot machine to upgrade it with the rare ingredients they just spent 2 weeks additonally grinding for, (or spent $400 in the P2W game) they get giddy over the thought of the gaming gods(rng) rewarding their greatness.
Basically stated - the new MMO gamer class are solo players, spending thousands of hours (or $$$) doing essentially mindless tasks and are addicted to thinking the next roll of the RNG machine will make them the god of that game, thus the better player.
And when I say grind, I am not talking about grinding levels/xp. I am talking about gear. End game content. Great gear does not come from grinding - anything. It comes from a very challenging raid.
Now attempting that raid may become a grind when you fail over and over, but it is different in the sense you get nothing for failing, vs. the grind based gear game gives you components to make the best in class gear - period. You just have to put in the hours. Anyone can do it. No skill required.
I think most people here that played EQ and VG understand the comparison.
What I am predicting is that this entire generation of gamers are now conditioned to thinking BDO and AA are the defacto standard for gaming, and will be hard pressed to adjust to needing groups, having to actually understand how to play their class and know the more esoteric functions of that class, rather than the 3-4 buttons they generally have to push. And that simply spending hundreds of hours guarantees nothing.
zewtastic said:What I am predicting is that this entire generation of gamers are now conditioned to thinking BDO and AA are the defacto standard for gaming, and will be hard pressed to adjust to needing groups, having to actually understand how to play their class and know the more esoteric functions of that class, rather than the 3-4 buttons they generally have to push. And that simply spending hundreds of hours guarantees nothing.
I'm sure when they experience a proper MMO they will realise how much better the older style games were from a community and participation perspective. I do have to say though I think you are preaching to the converted. I imagine the vast majority of people on these forums agree with you. I played BDO for a short time and it just didn't do anything for me. I just didn't enjoy it and the automatic running to quest locations ruined any sense of actually exploring the world for me. I just had to click a button and watch my character run to the correction location with no user input. I doubt anyone on these forums wants something like that.
I do think though that when the newer generation of gamers experience a game like Pantheon they will be converted. It is so much different to what is currently out there that I think they will get a pleasant surprise. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new generation of MMO players becoming addicted to Pantheon in the same was as I got addicted to EQ when I was about 18.
@zewtastic
I agree with your general sentiment that this will not be a game in which you can solo and get the best gear, no matter how long you solo and grind. I doubt there's going to be an alt currency system that provides a way to buy that gear or whatever.
That being said, Brad and other developers have specifically asked this community to be mindful that we old fart gamers come frmo a different generation of MMOs and have a different perspective. And that we should not reject those who really dont understand the tenents in a game like EQ or Vanguard or Pantheon, but instead take them under our wings and show them how this can be exceptionally fun.
I'm positive that we will only ever reach a small percentage of those people no matter how polite and generous we are with our time. But maybe we can get a few?
I hope I will not have my shoe stuck in the Raiding Merry Go Round that some MMORPGs have become nowadays. I think a group should be able to aquire some of the best gear in the game if played well. Raiding over and over 3 nights a week to get decent gear will suck. Just my opinion, after a lifetime of annoying friggen large raids. Sure a huge raid should drop some of the best stuff, but very good stuff should be obtainable by the adventure group that this game seems to be leaning toward. I see the game having about the same amount of large raiding content as solo content. I hope the Adventuring Group content is by far the most content of the game. I can roll with whatever happens because it will be fun; I just wanted to voice my opinion.
Feyshtey said:@zewtastic
I agree with your general sentiment that this will not be a game in which you can solo and get the best gear, no matter how long you solo and grind. I doubt there's going to be an alt currency system that provides a way to buy that gear or whatever.
That being said, Brad and other developers have specifically asked this community to be mindful that we old fart gamers come frmo a different generation of MMOs and have a different perspective. And that we should not reject those who really dont understand the tenents in a game like EQ or Vanguard or Pantheon, but instead take them under our wings and show them how this can be exceptionally fun.
I'm positive that we will only ever reach a small percentage of those people no matter how polite and generous we are with our time. But maybe we can get a few?
Indeed. I want this game to succeed. Games succeed when it has players. Let's invite players and show them what it's all about, not discourage them with claims of a game not being for them.
Skycaster said:I hope I will not have my shoe stuck in the Raiding Merry Go Round that some MMORPGs have become nowadays. I think a group should be able to aquire some of the best gear in the game if played well. Raiding over and over 3 nights a week to get decent gear will suck. Just my opinion, after a lifetime of annoying friggen large raids. Sure a huge raid should drop some of the best stuff, but very good stuff should be obtainable by the adventure group that this game seems to be leaning toward. I see the game having about the same amount of large raiding content as solo content. I hope the Adventuring Group content is by far the most content of the game. I can roll with whatever happens because it will be fun; I just wanted to voice my opinion.
I hate raiding, and I've pretty much promised myself that I'll never get sucked into the drama that is a raid guild again. However, I fully believe that in a game whose most fundimental core tenent is emphasis on community and cooperative play, the best items should be reserved for the best demonstrations of those fundimentals. 8 groups cooperating over 3 hours should get an item significantly more powerful than 1 group over 1 hour can. Exponentially greater? No, probably not. But no joke much much better, yes.
I'll never get that raid item. I'll never compare in power to those raid guild members. But I personally find that such a disparity of power between me and those at the pinacle reinforces a sense of awe in the gameworld for me rather than detracting in any way. I never ever want to see someone decked out int he best gear and think, "meh". At that point the game is dead to me.
Feyshtey said:Skycaster said:I hope I will not have my shoe stuck in the Raiding Merry Go Round that some MMORPGs have become nowadays. I think a group should be able to aquire some of the best gear in the game if played well. Raiding over and over 3 nights a week to get decent gear will suck. Just my opinion, after a lifetime of annoying friggen large raids. Sure a huge raid should drop some of the best stuff, but very good stuff should be obtainable by the adventure group that this game seems to be leaning toward. I see the game having about the same amount of large raiding content as solo content. I hope the Adventuring Group content is by far the most content of the game. I can roll with whatever happens because it will be fun; I just wanted to voice my opinion.
I hate raiding, and I've pretty much promised myself that I'll never get sucked into the drama that is a raid guild again. However, I fully believe that in a game whose most fundimental core tenent is emphasis on community and cooperative play, the best items should be reserved for the best demonstrations of those fundimentals. 8 groups cooperating over 3 hours should get an item significantly more powerful than 1 group over 1 hour can. Exponentially greater? No, probably not. But no joke much much better, yes.
I'll never get that raid item. I'll never compare in power to those raid guild members. But I personally find that such a disparity of power between me and those at the pinacle reinforces a sense of awe in the gameworld for me rather than detracting in any way. I never ever want to see someone decked out int he best gear and think, "meh". At that point the game is dead to me.
I think we are about on the same page. I do hope however that we will have some challenging and rewarding group play. I also hope we have customizable stats for weapons and armor. Yeah it is nice to see somebody now and then with gear that is drool worthy.
Why customizable stats? Is it an assumption that the devs will not be able to create items with appropriate stats? Or that you want more items to be more appealing to a more broad range of classes?
I'd prefer that some items are more sought after and treasured because they have that perfect set of stats, or that unusually high single stat. It makes it more interesting when you see that guy who has them. If the players have the ability to change stats then that visual impression has very little meaning, and that awe in the gameworld I was talking about is again diminished. Not to mention that when that item that's obviously got stats for a cleric drops the enchanter might argue he should get it because he can swap the Wis stat to Int...
Feyshtey said:Why customizable stats? Is it an assumption that the devs will not be able to create items with appropriate stats? Or that you want more items to be more appealing to a more broad range of classes?
I'd prefer that some items are more sought after and treasured because they have that perfect set of stats, or that unusually high single stat. It makes it more interesting when you see that guy who has them. If the players have the ability to change stats then that visual impression has very little meaning, and that awe in the gameworld I was talking about is again diminished. Not to mention that when that item that's obviously got stats for a cleric drops the enchanter might argue he should get it because he can swap the Wis stat to Int...
Feyshtey let me clarify my thoughts on that,
I hope we have a way to make weapons and armor a bit different by adding something to them that could make them more personalized. A simple gem or rune slot type thing that a person could put a little something that they wish to add to that special item. Only a quality item would have the ability to be added to. I am thinking simple here not anything complicated.
I also would like to see crafted items to be able to be shifted one way or the other a bit in stats depending on added ingredients/items.
I am sure the Devs are quite capable of programming some nice items into the game. The list of games and achevments that each of them have and as a whole are quite impressive, so I have no doubts; but I do have an opinion.
Back to the original post: Yes grinding away at any normal hole in the wall camp should not drop high quality items like rain; However I will restate my opinion that a good adventure group, played well, should be able to obtain some very nice items.
I am hoping, and thinking it may be so based on some of the things they have already told us, that there is no "true" BIS gear, that gear will be situational. Maybe there is a BIS item for a certain situation, but there will probably not be that one item everyone in a class wants/needs to fill a slot that won't get swapped until the next xpac.
I have never been the raiding type, and my interests in gear tend to be more in line with how I play rather than just the best item. Sometimes I sacrifice a stat or 2 for visual appearance or for useful affects.
I'm more the thrift shop gear type. I get the cool looking sword after it's out of style and in the cut-out bin. ;)
Im pretty sure we can expect there to be a larger focus on group content. And I dont mean just leveling. It is stated by the devs that this game is about grouping. At first I took that to mean just no focus on soloing. Brad has previously clarified that it is in fact group contet that is the focus and not Solo or Raid. Now thats not to say we cant expect to see some of each but that isnt the focus from what I understood. There was also that thread on MMORPG where Brad was looking for feedback on how to make high end grouping contetn just as viable as Raid content.(I dont know if they have shifted that focus since then but that was just a few months back). So I think we can expect to see the best gear come from some group content as well I think.
My personal hope is that if you really want to have the best gear then it will be a multi-layer appoach. So you cant just do nothing but raiding and expect to get all the best gear from raiding, but by the same token you cant do the same with say crafting. Now the gear right below the (lack of better phrase) highest current gear, should have multiple avenues and similar stats but should still reuire skill or effort to obtain. Just not as much as highest tier. And I dont think that highest gear should be a huge jump. Thats not so much a fairness thing with me as I want gear stats to be a slow and gradual increase to make gear matter more and allow us enough time to value and treasure those items (the 3 and 4 month turn over lately just makes it where that cant happen and i dont even remember the names of gear like I did in older games).
Back to the highest gear thing. I think it should come from 5 sources: Raiding, crafting, dungeons, epic quests, and faction. Simplified example:
Best body and legs from X raid (large scale)
Best hands and feet from X dungeon (group scale)
Best Weapon from X epic quest (could involve solo and group and maybe even raid parts and make it very long it is an epic quest afterall)
Best jewlery from X epic craft (this would be from the effort of at least a couple if not a few master crafters that would each craft different parts and come together to complete it, maybe mats come from dangerous places and things)
Best Head from X faction quest (I could see this being solo but its not like everyone could get it due to faction choices and even npc choices and would need help of others probably even getting max standing so not truly solo anyway)
This was just an example folks. But this would mean to be the best would be quite involved on multiple fronts. You cant just craft your way to the best gear but you cant just raid your way to the best gear either. Also it would be different for different classes. Maybe the exampe I gave above would be for Warriors, but just replace all the Xs (X dungeon etc) with Y for the Warrios cleric buddy. And now you will be helping eachother out and you wouldnt necesarily be getting anything out of it but the satisfaction of helping eachother out. So You help your warior buddy so that he helps you later. So now its not only a varied approach per gear and per content type, but its also varied per class. No one path is greater than another and noone can do anything without help and sometimes you help out and wont be able to expect direct rewards for yourself.
I dont necessarily think you're off base on the underlying approach participation in multiple avenues to get the best possible gear is compelling (for me at least). But I'd rather see an approach that incorportated all for every inventory slot.
To compare, your example says that a person can get the best chest and legs from raiding. But the other items from some other path.
What if instead the path to getting the best possible chest item started with the faction and the base stats on the chest item as its reward.
Then with the faction and chest item you have unlocked the quest to get an upgrade.
Which unlocks the group content (probably another quest) that upgrades the item again.
Which unlocks the drop from a raid for an additional upgrade.
Which unlocks the tradeskill path to get the final ultimate version.
I really really really like any system that allows for incremental advancement thru a series of tasks. It gives a sense that you're actually achieving something as you struggle toward a final big payoff. And for someone like me that has limited playtime, and likely wont ever hit that big payoff, the incremental advancements are compelling as hell. They are steps I can complete and get the sense of achievement, while not giving me those rewards rightfully reserved for those who are able/willing to go all out.
You could easily mix up the order of the paths for every inventory slot as well. So maybe a group camp actually gets the base stats for the legs. But further quest/tradeskill/raid content gets it to its final state. I do sort of think that either raids or tradeskills requiring raid recipes or components should be the final step though.
@Feyshtey
I think we are on the same page basically, just using different approaches. My main point was just a varied and mixed approach to content. But I liked your idea as well because its still a mixed aproach. Too much of the same can kill my motivation in the long run.
The one thing I will say about your idea is Im not sure to what degree the devs will allow for incremental progression in gear. I think from what I read as far as time constraints are concerned we can probably also expect a meet in the middle appoach as well, but that doesnt mean no camping etc. I think several timed Brad has said looking to create an oldschool experience but also feeling you can accomplish something in a 2 hour session. I would assume that expands beyond just xp parties, but that doesnt necessarily mean incremental gear progression either. Could be just shorter camp times on boss mobs like 2 hour respawns, but that wouldnt eliminate contested nature of content. Or it could mean Things like timed lockouts so maybe every 72 hours you have access to X content for a couple of hours. Im not saying you are wrong though. It could very well include it. Which would be fine with me as long as its open world and as long as its a varied approach to content.
I suppose I was lucky, Gear was important but I was not eager to get the BIS bug. I recall that sleeves and pants were items I usually wore for a very long time as they were hard slots to upgrade. When I got into raiding is made DKP choices alot easier to make, if a caster wearable pair of pants or sleeves showed up, I was all over it.
But any item I was specifically going for was usually the result of a quest, for which I would need help for some or most of the parts so I was very consciencious-
For instance, If there was a open Seru raid or even someone going on a Seru raid and asking if I wanted to go along- I would accept- and then politely ask the person that invited me if I might have a chance to roll on the head or how loot was being handled. I wouldn't care about anything else but the head- even though I had Jboots and the loot boots were better- even though I didnt have a horse- I didnt care because I was more interested in finishing the earing for which I needed the head- provided no one on the host raid wanted the head. I would even preface by saying "you know, the head is for the final part of a nice quest". Shooting myself in the foot a little bit I know but I did eventually get the head and in not so long a time- I had alot of raiding guild friends that i amde over the years playing.
I sort of believe in the ebb and flow of the game where you sort of get the things you need as they come to you in game as if it was predestined- kind of like Carlos Castenada's shamanistic drug journeys in only picking the peyote that presented itself in his path- oh how very spiritual (*snort*) or being in a situaiton to cast lots on the fine cloak that had one seam from head to toe....as the result of the random events of day to day grouping and exploring.
That didnt mean I was far from gear-envy, in fact I liked seeing or being shown interesting and high level items that I might like and to be honest I would get a bit miffed if I saw someone my level with a nice ring- prompting me to ask 'How did you get that ring?' assunming we were on the same skill/player/ability level.
Tralyan said:Hieromonk said:Going to say... it is going to be hard to camp for something, when you don't know where it is going to spawn..
Why would we not know where something is going to spawn?
Because thats how it works in the version of Pantheon Heiromonk plays in his mind.