Dullahan said:Tralyan said:Hieromonk said:Going to say... it is going to be hard to camp for something, when you don't know where it is going to spawn..
Why would we not know where something is going to spawn?
Because thats how it works in the version of Pantheon Heiromonk plays in his mind.
To be fair there were some pretty complex spawns in EQ that took quite a long time to work out the placeholder mobs were and where the named mob would spawn when the placeholders were killed. I can certainly see Pantheon using some really complex spawn scripts to make finding names a bit more complex than just sitting in a room killing a placeholder over and over again until a named spawned.
Hopefully they spice things up a bit like that in the game to make it less boring and predictable.
Cromulent said:Dullahan said:Tralyan said:Hieromonk said:Going to say... it is going to be hard to camp for something, when you don't know where it is going to spawn..
Why would we not know where something is going to spawn?
Because thats how it works in the version of Pantheon Heiromonk plays in his mind.
To be fair there were some pretty complex spawns in EQ that took quite a long time to work out the placeholder mobs were and where the named mob would spawn when the placeholders were killed. I can certainly see Pantheon using some really complex spawn scripts to make finding names a bit more complex than just sitting in a room killing a placeholder over and over again until a named spawned.
Hopefully they spice things up a bit like that in the game to make it less boring and predictable.
Agreed. Hope its all that and more. It just won't be completely "dynamic". The devs have said more than once that while dynamic content is fun, players still want to be able to learn what to expect.
Even the most dynamic system that follows any form of logic will eventually be discovered and even expected by the players.
Dullahan said:Cromulent said:Dullahan said:Tralyan said:Hieromonk said:Going to say... it is going to be hard to camp for something, when you don't know where it is going to spawn..
Why would we not know where something is going to spawn?
Because thats how it works in the version of Pantheon Heiromonk plays in his mind.
To be fair there were some pretty complex spawns in EQ that took quite a long time to work out the placeholder mobs were and where the named mob would spawn when the placeholders were killed. I can certainly see Pantheon using some really complex spawn scripts to make finding names a bit more complex than just sitting in a room killing a placeholder over and over again until a named spawned.
Hopefully they spice things up a bit like that in the game to make it less boring and predictable.
Agreed. Hope its all that and more. It just won't be completely "dynamic". The devs have said more than once that while dynamic content is fun, players still want to be able to learn what to expect.
Even the most dynamic system that follows any form of logic will eventually be discovered and even expected by the players.
I couldn't find the exact thread, but I do recall Brad saying something along the lines that they plan on keeping encounters static so that player's get a chance to learn, and more importantly, pass on those strategies to other players.
But now that I think about it, I can't recall if that was referring to spawn points, or to the specific encounters and how they'd play out. There may have been a suggestion about mobs using different strategies, which may have prompted that. I dunno.
Either way, that's why I was confused by Heiro's post.
Like you said, the beginning will be full of learning fun. I look forward to figuring out when and where spawns happen, and all the trials and long hours that may go along with figuring it out.
No matter the case there is always going to be those particular items that everyone wants and quite frankly there should be. I always loved having those dream wish lists of items that I someday wanted. Regardless if some are situational, there will always be those zones that drop higher demanded items and people will want the situational items that function best in those particular zones. For instance... there could be a snow and ice type zone that is known for dropping an all/all haste item and a back item that has clicky lev. So people are going to go to another zone that is known for dropping situational gear for cold climates. That is going to create 2 hotspot zones right there. 1 where people want the cold gear and the other for people wanting the haste item and clicky lev. Is there anything wrong with this? Of course not. I love being able to go somewhere with some friends to try and get particular items. Are they BIS items? Maybe, maybe not but they are highly demanded for their effects and maybe I want one for my character or maybe I want to get one so I can sell it to get another item I have been wanting.
Not sure why there wouldnt be BIS items. How could you even get around this? There is always going to be those items that are best for those particular slots. By saying situational then that just means there will be even more BIS items for those situations which in turn means carrying around more gear. What if I need to have a set of resist gear with me too? Seems like the whole climate/situational thing is going to require us to carry around a whole lot of stuff. I am not against the interactive environment idea with the relics and stuff. And I am used to carrying around resist gear and clicky items that are essential for survival. But I am curious as to why the devs are so against BIS items? Does this mean there will always be an item that can be upgraded by another item? If there are no BIS items then how will we acquire the best items for our characters? In EQ you would need to raid particular areas and gear up from those areas to progress to the next. For example... to be able to succeed in TOV your guild needed to be VP geared. And when Luclin came about then your guild needed to be ToV geared to move on to VT.
Maybe someone can enlighten me on how and why there wont be BIS items...
When there are many situations for which we need different situational gear, traditional BIS does not apply. You could have a sort of Best in Slot Balance for a solid all purpose set of equipment, but it would still be inferior to a Best in Slot Situational set. Even then, that would still only be best in that given "situation". If you really need different equipment sets for not only different climates and content but builds and specialization, it obscures what is "best" as it all depends where and what you are fighting as well as your class and chosen playstyle.
Xaleban said:Not sure why there wouldnt be BIS items. How could you even get around this? There is always going to be those items that are best for those particular slots. By saying situational then that just means there will be even more BIS items for those situations which in turn means carrying around more gear. What if I need to have a set of resist gear with me too? Seems like the whole climate/situational thing is going to require us to carry around a whole lot of stuff. I am not against the interactive environment idea with the relics and stuff. And I am used to carrying around resist gear and clicky items that are essential for survival. But I am curious as to why the devs are so against BIS items? Does this mean there will always be an item that can be upgraded by another item? If there are no BIS items then how will we acquire the best items for our characters? In EQ you would need to raid particular areas and gear up from those areas to progress to the next. For example... to be able to succeed in TOV your guild needed to be VP geared. And when Luclin came about then your guild needed to be ToV geared to move on to VT.
Maybe someone can enlighten me on how and why there wont be BIS items...
Maybe your looking at things too literally? I think what was meant was that there will be more areas where situational gear will be used. So unlike in nearly all new MMOs, there won't be clear BiS piece, but rather a multitude of gear that will be best depending on the situation, effectively removing the notion of a clear BiS piece.
Yeah I'm hoping that the whole concept of BiS items will be rendered obsolete by Pantheon. There shouldn't be a single item that should be considered BiS it should depend on the type of zone you are in and the type of mobs that you are fighting as to what is considered BiS and that could change depending on lots of variables.
Hopefully people will spend a lot of time trying to collect gear for different situations which will mean that there will always be people wanting to group even if they are max level. That should really help the community of the game and let people really get to know each other. The more people group up to get better gear the better the game will feel to play if you ask me.
I'm also hoping that crafters will be able to make special gear for certain situations where there isn't a really good item that drops so that players are forced to either do crafting themselves or have to employ a guild crafter to make gear for them. That should keep crafting relevant even at the highest level of the game.
the point remains that while you will be unable to solo grind to BIS gear, you will be group grinding to BIS gear. because not everyone will be getting an item from each raid, and sometimes items will drop that noone in the group/raid can use/want. which means that even if you win the raid over and over you may not have anything to show for it for months. even myself in VG when raiding APW with my guild it was 3 months into raiding that i won my first item. and that was as MT. It was still grinding even tho it was grinding a raid over and over.
Gawd said:the point remains that while you will be unable to solo grind to BIS gear, you will be group grinding to BIS gear. because not everyone will be getting an item from each raid, and sometimes items will drop that noone in the group/raid can use/want. which means that even if you win the raid over and over you may not have anything to show for it for months. even myself in VG when raiding APW with my guild it was 3 months into raiding that i won my first item. and that was as MT. It was still grinding even tho it was grinding a raid over and over.
Yeah you are right. Raiding does become a grind especially if there is a rare piece of loot that you really want that only drops 10% of the time and there are 30 people all willing to spend DKP to get the item. That can take months to get the item or maybe even longer and I certainly agree with you that that is a grind. The same goes for group content with a really low chance of a certain item dropping. I know I spent weeks in EQ trying to get a certain item. I'd certainly consider that a grind as well.
So yeah people will still most likely grind for gear in Pantheon. It'll just be done in a slightly different way to other MMOs requiring team work to get the item rather than being able to grind it on your own.
Gawd said:the point remains that while you will be unable to solo grind to BIS gear, you will be group grinding to BIS gear. because not everyone will be getting an item from each raid, and sometimes items will drop that noone in the group/raid can use/want. which means that even if you win the raid over and over you may not have anything to show for it for months. even myself in VG when raiding APW with my guild it was 3 months into raiding that i won my first item. and that was as MT. It was still grinding even tho it was grinding a raid over and over.
It's took me months to grind for my first ever piece of decent endgame gear with my linkshell (guild). For me the time flew, because during those months I gained a lot of knowledge and good memories that I can remember clear as day. I remember willing my guild my first run because I didn't know own about turning off auto attack, I remember learning what the death house was in a particular zone, I remember gaining good friends as I explored areas I've never seen before while learning how to better gear my player, I remember waving to a new player as I entered about endgame zone that said player could not access without a special item...
I rambled on for too long! But what I'm trying to say is that I never really felt the grind when I played that game. As opposed to ffxiv where I dreaded leveling jobs because it was a monotonous grind. Everything felt forced, I felt I was literally advancing at the pace SE had set for me like it was some sort of job. No immersion, constant daily reminders of what I had to do. Endgame was no different with constant reminders of what you had to do and a treadmill of endgame gear with slightly better stats in a simplified manner that an monkey could play. Next tier of gear will give your dps +5 str because that is the only state you should care about!
..I think the trick for this game will be how well the grind can be disguised, create opportunities for memorable moments and I think the notion of everything being a grind will be laughable!
Cromulent said:Gawd said:the point remains that while you will be unable to solo grind to BIS gear, you will be group grinding to BIS gear. because not everyone will be getting an item from each raid, and sometimes items will drop that noone in the group/raid can use/want. which means that even if you win the raid over and over you may not have anything to show for it for months. even myself in VG when raiding APW with my guild it was 3 months into raiding that i won my first item. and that was as MT. It was still grinding even tho it was grinding a raid over and over.
Yeah you are right. Raiding does become a grind especially if there is a rare piece of loot that you really want that only drops 10% of the time and there are 30 people all willing to spend DKP to get the item. That can take months to get the item or maybe even longer and I certainly agree with you that that is a grind. The same goes for group content with a really low chance of a certain item dropping. I know I spent weeks in EQ trying to get a certain item. I'd certainly consider that a grind as well.
So yeah people will still most likely grind for gear in Pantheon. It'll just be done in a slightly different way to other MMOs requiring team work to get the item rather than being able to grind it on your own.
Agree 100% Also to add to the discussion doesn’t it also depend on how the gear is deployed in the game? static stats or dynamic scaling/modify capable?
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