I searched, but didn't find anything on this, so here goes.
I was listening to the podcast on here the other day, and AAs were mentioned as well as them not being a case of griding, but rather a metasystem of systems. What could those systems be about?
I'm all for variety, so I'd be happy if some were long quests, or collecting a set of torn pages around the world that need to be assembled (possibly by a player with a certain crafting skill?) to become readable with a riddle to solve (yeah these will be revealed on the net eventually, but if you put in e.g. 10-20 riddles that are randomized and also perhaps replaced over time, it might at least delay the spilling of the secret sauce), travel all over the world, including starting zones to talk to NPCs (some are in dungeons), perhaps some involve the help of druids who can see the heart of Terminus, some might involve the spawning of a mob or a rare event etc.
What say you?
FierinaFuryfist said:The AAs to make you really think about where to choose your points. Rather than a few good ones and some really odd ones that don't make sense for your class to take, make all the AAs available to you look pretty inviting and useful.
Agreed! No fluff.
How could they be presented to us: like trees in single player games, so we can see where they lead? I'd like that. Of course, there is the "danger" of one branch or set of AAs being above the rest - I hope not. Perhaps you could also reset your choices, but at a fairly great cost, like requiring a sacrifice of gear or something at a temple, together with the loss of all points gathered, in order to start again. Too harsh? Not for me.
Yeah I would like a TON of trivial AAs to tempt the mind constantly... Walk / run speed, resistances, attk speed, stats, spell casting, trade-skills, tracking, you name it... This way everyone can completely custom their toons how they see fit. I like the idea of spending some limited AAs as you level instead of starting all AAs at max level. I think there should be more to spend at higher levels, but should not be limited to max level only. I also like the custom adjustments to how much of an experience % you want to put toward AAs or regular experience.
I would also like to see the potential results of the tiers of skills before you spend them. For example, you spend an AA point on run speed, and you cane see that the next point spent will increase speed by an additional 5% etc...
I am excited alredy!!
So it would be a system that runs in the background monitoring what you have done and awarding points. You will take those points and spend them on general and/or class specific AA's. Maybe discoveries, completed quests, skills gained from swinging a sword or combining materials to make something, or being the first to discover an item on a server. Then the Meta System would register a certain amount on the advancement bar depending on what number the devs have given it.
In the past it was pretty much just normal exp that was siphoned off to AA Points. I think I like the Meta System better. It sounds more fun and all types of players can easily participate.
It would be cool to have class specific things to spend them on.
I would love to see an additive AA system similar to what we had in EQ. The constant character advancement was indeed addictive. With thousands of AA points to distribute, there was always something you were working towards, and it kept exp groups relevant at max level. This would be my preference, as opposed to systems were you have a set number of pionts that you spend in tree-like structures.
With an additive AA system, some players would voice concerns about uniqueness or everyone being cookie-cutter. This is a valid concern, however EQ never felt cookie-cutter, at least not to me. A warrior was a warrior, and there were certain milestones in the AA system you would strive to hit. These goals really kept me going, and the more time I put in, the more invested I was in my character and the game as a whole.
Of course, there are some downsides to an additive AA system. Time = character power. The more time you put in, the stronger your character becomes. Sounds like a good thing, but when the game is years old, it becomes very hard for new players to catch up. Even still, this would be my preferred system. It worked so well in EQ, and we havent seen anything similar since.
Pyye said:Yeah I would like a TON of trivial AAs to tempt the mind constantly... Walk / run speed, resistances, attk speed, stats, spell casting, trade-skills, tracking, you name it... This way everyone can completely custom their toons how they see fit. I like the idea of spending some limited AAs as you level instead of starting all AAs at max level. I think there should be more to spend at higher levels, but should not be limited to max level only. I also like the custom adjustments to how much of an experience % you want to put toward AAs or regular experience.
I would also like to see the potential results of the tiers of skills before you spend them. For example, you spend an AA point on run speed, and you cane see that the next point spent will increase speed by an additional 5% etc...
I am excited alredy!!
I like this scenario. I think it would help develop a character rather than start with a canned one.
Oh where is the Pyye chart?
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I'd have to say I prefer passives. Not abilities and not straight stat increases. More like things that add to, change or intensify abilities. So maybe adding a dot to an ability. Or taking away a dot in favor of more direct damage. Or increasing the length or intensity of the dot. (kept the theme similar for simplicity but of course doesnt only need to be dots.)
Not a big fan of AAs unless there is a reasonable way to reset them. Nothing worse than taking a certain branch only to find, XX expansions later, that your AA choice is now gone the way of the Dodo. Too many games these days make you have to completely reset your AA (or whatever said game happens to call such a system) due to the latest xpac being all about resistances, or crit multipliers, or whatever. Keep an AA choice as viable at day 3000 as it was at day 1, then I'm all for it.
I'd basically port EQ's AA system, tbh. The only difference is that I don't like the idea of abilities come from AAs, only passive bonuses that modify existing abilities. Just to prevent bloat.
With EQ's AA system, respecs aren't necessary because it's possible to max out every AA you have given enough time.
Wigg said: Do you guys think the AA system, if there even is an AA system, (has it been confirmed?) will be similar to this http://almarsguides.com/eq/general/aaplacement.cfm
There's no way to answer that question this early. However, this is the EQ AA system I pointed out in my last reply.
All AAs are capable of being maxed out if you invest the time, so it becomes a matter of prioritizing what you get first over being reduced to specs.
I would like AA"s throughout the level range. It gives you the ability to do certain content longer, without out leveling the content and friends who have fallen a little behind.
I liked the EQ system of AA's. There was no need to respec because you could earn all the AA's if you spent enough time getting experience and the AA's were nice and varied and made playing your character much more fun in the long run. I'd like to see the number of AA's that EQ had as well. Last time I played there were literally thousands you could get and they all did something somewhat unique.
You know, while I did enjoy the AA system in EQ there is a system of alternate advancement that I enjoyed even more from a different label.
Prestige classes in Neverwinter Nights / DnD.
I don't think anyone here will say that character customization is a bad thing. What we might all agree on is the homogenization of classes being a bad thing. In games like EQ2, where they attempted to create a diverse cast of different classes and failing in that diversity, atleast insofar as class-interdependency, it's a valid fear. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a foregone conclusion that the inclusion of more class options, or, prestige classes in this case, would lead to the same result. It would simply require more imagination by the devs to come up with skills and classes that don't deviate from the main role, but with enough uniqueness to them that it still feels like it's your own class.
The idea of playing my class, then planning my later prestige classes to make something unique, has always been very appealling to me.
What destroys class interdependency to me isn't so much how MMO's create classes as it is how they create the encounters within the game.
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For those not familiar with the Prestige Classes of Neverwinter, it's quite simple. You play a class as your Base. Let's say a Barbarian. Once you've put enough points into certain abilities and perks, you might have the option of choosing a prestige class. The prestige class you choose gives you access to that classes skill-set, but also sacrifices how quickly you gain experience. Additionally, some class types just didn't mesh well with others. A Barbarian with a Red-Wizard prestige class wouldn't make sense, as a Red-Wizard would be unable to make effective use of the barbarians armor and weapon priviliges without seriously impeding the wizards ability to cast spells.
However, if I wanted to be a barbarian with a duelist prestige class, I'd sacrifice the barbarians armor but I'd be able to utilize their frenzy skill in conjunction with the duelists weapon finesse and dual wielding abilities. While the barbarian may no longer serve as an effective tank, it could possibly advertize its services as a DPS class. Or, maybe it could be a tank that mitigated damage via avoidance. That would depend on how Pantheon handles its archetype mechanics, I suppose.
I still have fond memories of my Paladin ---> Storm Lord character.
Anyway, just a thought. I think it's AA but in a more customizable and interesting way, and can certainly be implemented in such a way that it doesn't detract from the class-interdependency that most of us here advocate.
=edit= I, of course, am referring to the single player Neverwinter Night titles, and not that fiasco of an MMO they've recently come out with
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Otherwise, yea, AA's are cool too.
-Tralyan
Tralyan said:You know, while I did enjoy the AA system in EQ there is a system of alternate advancement that I enjoyed even more from a different label.
Prestige classes in Neverwinter Nights / DnD.
I don't think anyone here will say that character customization is a bad thing. What we might all agree on is the homogenization of classes being a bad thing. In games like EQ2, where they attempted to create a diverse cast of different classes and failing in that diversity, atleast insofar as class-interdependency, it's a valid fear. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a foregone conclusion that the inclusion of more class options, or, prestige classes in this case, would lead to the same result. It would simply require more imagination by the devs to come up with skills and classes that don't deviate from the main role, but with enough uniqueness to them that it still feels like it's your own class.
The idea of playing my class, then planning my later prestige classes to make something unique, has always been very appealling to me.
What destroys class interdependency to me isn't so much how MMO's create classes as it is how they create the encounters within the game.
-----------
For those not familiar with the Prestige Classes of Neverwinter, it's quite simple. You play a class as your Base. Let's say a Barbarian. Once you've put enough points into certain abilities and perks, you might have the option of choosing a prestige class. The prestige class you choose gives you access to that classes skill-set, but also sacrifices how quickly you gain experience. Additionally, some class types just didn't mesh well with others. A Barbarian with a Red-Wizard prestige class wouldn't make sense, as a Red-Wizard would be unable to make effective use of the barbarians armor and weapon priviliges without seriously impeding the wizards ability to cast spells.
However, if I wanted to be a barbarian with a duelist prestige class, I'd sacrifice the barbarians armor but I'd be able to utilize their frenzy skill in conjunction with the duelists weapon finesse and dual wielding abilities. While the barbarian may no longer serve as an effective tank, it could possibly advertize its services as a DPS class. Or, maybe it could be a tank that mitigated damage via avoidance. That would depend on how Pantheon handles its archetype mechanics, I suppose.
I still have fond memories of my Paladin ---> Storm Lord character.
Anyway, just a thought. I think it's AA but in a more customizable and interesting way, and can certainly be implemented in such a way that it doesn't detract from the class-interdependency that most of us here advocate.
=edit= I, of course, am referring to the single player Neverwinter Night titles, and not that fiasco of an MMO they've recently come out with
------------
Otherwise, yea, AA's are cool too.
-Tralyan
Sounds interesting. Its been years since I played the single player Neverwinter Nights games. I might have to pick them up on GOG to refresh my knowledge of what you are talking about. I quite like the idea but mixing two classes together could lead to some problems in that it dilutes the skill of a pure class (say a Cleric) and turns them more into a hybrid class which might make them less wanted in groups. Of course I might be misunderstanding what you are saying and if that is the case I apologise.
Cromulent said:Tralyan said:You know, while I did enjoy the AA system in EQ there is a system of alternate advancement that I enjoyed even more from a different label.
Prestige classes in Neverwinter Nights / DnD.
I don't think anyone here will say that character customization is a bad thing. What we might all agree on is the homogenization of classes being a bad thing. In games like EQ2, where they attempted to create a diverse cast of different classes and failing in that diversity, atleast insofar as class-interdependency, it's a valid fear. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a foregone conclusion that the inclusion of more class options, or, prestige classes in this case, would lead to the same result. It would simply require more imagination by the devs to come up with skills and classes that don't deviate from the main role, but with enough uniqueness to them that it still feels like it's your own class.
The idea of playing my class, then planning my later prestige classes to make something unique, has always been very appealling to me.
What destroys class interdependency to me isn't so much how MMO's create classes as it is how they create the encounters within the game.
-----------
For those not familiar with the Prestige Classes of Neverwinter, it's quite simple. You play a class as your Base. Let's say a Barbarian. Once you've put enough points into certain abilities and perks, you might have the option of choosing a prestige class. The prestige class you choose gives you access to that classes skill-set, but also sacrifices how quickly you gain experience. Additionally, some class types just didn't mesh well with others. A Barbarian with a Red-Wizard prestige class wouldn't make sense, as a Red-Wizard would be unable to make effective use of the barbarians armor and weapon priviliges without seriously impeding the wizards ability to cast spells.
However, if I wanted to be a barbarian with a duelist prestige class, I'd sacrifice the barbarians armor but I'd be able to utilize their frenzy skill in conjunction with the duelists weapon finesse and dual wielding abilities. While the barbarian may no longer serve as an effective tank, it could possibly advertize its services as a DPS class. Or, maybe it could be a tank that mitigated damage via avoidance. That would depend on how Pantheon handles its archetype mechanics, I suppose.
I still have fond memories of my Paladin ---> Storm Lord character.
Anyway, just a thought. I think it's AA but in a more customizable and interesting way, and can certainly be implemented in such a way that it doesn't detract from the class-interdependency that most of us here advocate.
=edit= I, of course, am referring to the single player Neverwinter Night titles, and not that fiasco of an MMO they've recently come out with
------------
Otherwise, yea, AA's are cool too.
-Tralyan
Sounds interesting. Its been years since I played the single player Neverwinter Nights games. I might have to pick them up on GOG to refresh my knowledge of what you are talking about. I quite like the idea but mixing two classes together could lead to some problems in that it dilutes the skill of a pure class (say a Cleric) and turns them more into a hybrid class which might make them less wanted in groups. Of course I might be misunderstanding what you are saying and if that is the case I apologise.
Well, if you recall, you could actually pick and choose from any class combination, as long as certain parameters were met such as alignment. Obviously, it wasn't a good reason to do that a lot of the time. A Wizard who also put points in a Fighter base class, and also in assassin and Weaponsmaster prestige classes, would be a pretty crippled class and damn near useless. However a Wizard, with some points in a base class of Rogue with prestige in Red-Wizard of Thay and Assassin might be pretty useful and unique.
So yes, to your point, it WOULD make you less desirable in a group if you were picking classes that had no earthly business being related to one another. That's certainly a concern. However, I think it might work itself out. Obviously, if you're playing Pantheon, you probably already know it's a group-centric game, and that mixing and matching those classes would hurt your chances of grouping. Chances are you wouldn't do it.
I dunno - it would be hard to implement this sytem in such a way that it would work in Pantheon's world. I can concede that. It was just always my favorite way of character progression. That, and I just miss my Storm Lord.
-Tralyan
I think a good way to make use of the progeny system would be to have class-specific AA abilities (both active and passive), and then have those abilities transfer over to your progeny. I truly hope this is how it is implemented.
Using EQ as an example, it would've been neat to play a necromancer first if it made the druid DoT spells better/more efficient by the use of the class-specific necromancer AAs. A system like this would give a reason to play several classes if the end result is a benefit to what you want your primary end-game class to be. It would add thought to how you choose to play the game as well.
