I've never really understood the whole DoTs not stacking thing in EQ. Always seemed like a cludge. If 1 wiz against 1 necro wasn't balanced, fix it, don't compensate with some weird confusing mechanic that only kicks in when two necros group up. Will it fail, extend or override? What an irritating mess. If the DPS is out of whack, change the DPS. If DoTs mana cost isn't balanced against the high chance of the spell not completing (monster death/cure/dispell) change the mana cost. They often had 'utility' too? Well wizzy high-burst damage was a 'utility' in itself wasn't it? Still don't think it equates? Tweak the damage or mana then.
I can only imagine the devs didn't want to code the mechanic to apply double slows and/or the coding to re-apply effects already running was complex.
Anyway, Pantheon is not EQ. They can surely think of a way to balance classes without causing a group to not want 2 of some class.
I think in the early days it was not the code or creative ways to do this. The servers and infrastructure were a big issue. Then pushing all the data out to us on 1980 era network and NICS was an exercise in futility.
Anyway, Pantheon is not EQ. They can surely think of a way to balance classes without causing a group to not want 2 of some class.
Agreed! Pantheon has some wide open ground ahead of it. Maybe the wheel does not need to be reinvented but this time instead of wagon wheels use modern tires.
Ox
A good reason to not allow DOTs, buffs or debuffs to stack is to promote of interedependency, variety and balance. If everyone can use the same abilities and stack them, suddenly people are flocking to certain classes to stack those powerful abilities. If we could stack roots, mobs would never move. If we could stack dots (some of the highest dps abilities), players would gravitate towards those classes. If we could stack HOTs, a handful of healers could give a target more healing every tick than damage they could possibly receive.
However, when you can't stack those things, it means you need a variety of classes and abilities.
Its pretty straight forward.
Dullahan said:A good reason to not allow DOTs, buffs or debuffs to stack is to promote of interedependency, variety and balance. If everyone can use the same abilities and stack them, suddenly people are flocking to certain classes to stack those powerful abilities. If we could stack roots, mobs would never move. If we could stack dots (some of the highest dps abilities), players would gravitate towards those classes. If we could stack HOTs, a handful of healers could give a target more healing every tick than damage they could possibly receive.
However, when you can't stack those things, it means you need a variety of classes and abilities.
Its pretty straight forward.
True, but at the same time, if you make having more than 1 of a class in your group pointless, you alienate certain people/groups. Allowing some stacking of spells (And not necessarily at full strength) you open the group composition to more posibilities.
In the end, there will always be a group of the players who will always find the best combination of whatever and use it to accomplish their goals. There is no real fix for that. The best anyone can do, is to make the world open and less restrictive.
If something is completely out of whack, then look at solutions. But start with a blank canvas rather than a paint by numbers.
Fulton said:Dullahan said:A good reason to not allow DOTs, buffs or debuffs to stack is to promote of interedependency, variety and balance. If everyone can use the same abilities and stack them, suddenly people are flocking to certain classes to stack those powerful abilities. If we could stack roots, mobs would never move. If we could stack dots (some of the highest dps abilities), players would gravitate towards those classes. If we could stack HOTs, a handful of healers could give a target more healing every tick than damage they could possibly receive.
However, when you can't stack those things, it means you need a variety of classes and abilities.
Its pretty straight forward.
True, but at the same time, if you make having more than 1 of a class in your group pointless, you alienate certain people/groups. Allowing some stacking of spells (And not necessarily at full strength) you open the group composition to more posibilities.
In the end, there will always be a group of the players who will always find the best combination of whatever and use it to accomplish their goals. There is no real fix for that. The best anyone can do, is to make the world open and less restrictive.
If something is completely out of whack, then look at solutions. But start with a blank canvas rather than a paint by numbers.
i think we are talking about two different kinds of stacking here. Dullahan is talking about have one player cast the same DoT over and over allowing the damage to accumulate, whereas Fulton is talking about having 1 player be able to cast DoT X and then different player cast DoT X and both retain the same numerical values. I don't think anyone was saying that being able to have 1 player stack DoT X over and over again is a good thing.
Dullahan said:If we could stack dots (some of the highest dps abilities), players would gravitate towards those classes.
Just wanted to comment on this statement. DoTs have never been some of the highest dps. DPS stands for damage per second and on a normal mob a necro will never come close to the dps of a wiz. Ever. Sustained dmg, damage over time such as on a raid boss with tons of health that will live for 10ish mins, sure they can compete due to dots going for full duration and wiz's requiring time to get mana back. But to say that they are equal or that dots are stronger is completely false. Now if you had said dpm (damage per mana) then sure. DoTs have always been a much lower mana cost due to them not doing high amounts of dmg in short amounts of time.
Say your dot does 5,000 dmg over 2 minutes. Let's say this dot ticks every 3 seconds that would mean 40 ticks which means 125 damage every 3 seconds.
Let's say a wizard has a 5,000 dmg spell that takes 10 seconds to cast. In that same 10 seconds, the wizard has done 5k damage and the dot has done 375.
So even if the wiz spell cost 800 mana to the dots 200 mana, there is an obvious justification for it. Now we all know dot classes rarely have only 1 dot so their dmg would be much higher than just 375 in the 10 seconds but in order to do the same amount of damage in the provided time would end up costing them roughly the same if not more mana. If it was even possible at all. Add this into the fact that some will ask you not to use certain dots because of the things they do, snares, fears, etc and that drops the potential even farther. The only real benefit to dots in my honest opinion is that they don't pull a ton of threat in an instant. That makes them beneficial to some.
And to clarify, we are talking about dots stack per person and not upon itself. As in if I put spell A on a mob then another person should be able to apply that same spell to the same mob. This is ONLY for dot dmg spells. I am not refering to slows, debuffs, etc as those should just take the most powerful one. I simply don't want to feel forced to tell someone they can't join my group or raid simply because we already have the 1 of their class we can use. That makes little to no sense to me. That doesn't create interdependancy. It creates what we had at the start of EQ and the reason necros became 'the solo class' because they didn't have a choice but to learn how to solo.
VattoLoco said:
i think we are talking about two different kinds of stacking here. Dullahan is talking about have one player cast the same DoT over and over allowing the damage to accumulate, whereas Fulton is talking about having 1 player be able to cast DoT X and then different player cast DoT X and both retain the same numerical values. I don't think anyone was saying that being able to have 1 player stack DoT X over and over again is a good thing.
You are correct, and I think the OP was more about multiple players stacking, not a single player.
Enitzu said:Dullahan said:If we could stack dots (some of the highest dps abilities), players would gravitate towards those classes.
stuff
You're right. I meant mana per damage. Regardless, long term, if you could stack dots it would exceed even the highest "dps" classes.
That was just one example of spreading out abilities and how it causes a greater need for a variety of skills and classes though. Thanks for cherry picking one.
If different people could not stack the same dots on a mob then you would limit every group/raid to only 1 of that class. It would be like saying only 1 wizard could use the best DD spell or one 1 melee could use a certain type of weapon. I agree it would enforce class interdependency and variety, though not really balance. And I feel it would be bad for the social aspect of the game because you may as well not become friends with anyone of your own class because the game would basically prevent you from playing together. EQ1 was like that for a while but they changed it eventually.
I also feel it is important to allow dots to stack with the lower level versions of the same spell because of resists. On a boss where only 1 resist type will land, a DD class will just spam their best spell of that resist line so their DPS is not hurt that much. A DoT class has to stack different spells to do any decent dmg, so they are forced to load up all their older spells of that line. They will already be hurt worse by this than a DD caster because the older spells are not as strong. But to not allow older spells to stack with current ones would make dot classes extremely weak on those encounters.
I do not think the game should allow 1 dot class to stack the same dot over and over though. That would be extremely overpowered (and pretty boring as well).
Like Aradune said, its important to have enough options for each class to be able to choose a particular subset of spells while grouping with players of the same class.
I don't think we have to worry about being so limited that 2 or 3 of the same class couldn't easily work together. Take even a necro. In a group situation, all 3 had pets. That was a good portion of their DPS. Then you had different kinds of nukes vs living and undead targets, as well as dots and debuffs. In a group of 3 necros, that would be more than enough to tide over the first 2, with the third healing the pets and lifetapping the health back from mobs.
If we had that kind of dynamic available in a game 17 years ago, I imagine we can only expect better things today.
Dullahan said:Enitzu said:Dullahan said:If we could stack dots (some of the highest dps abilities), players would gravitate towards those classes.
stuff
You're right. I meant mana per damage. Regardless, long term, if you could stack dots it would exceed even the highest "dps" classes.
That was just one example of spreading out abilities and how it causes a greater need for a variety of skills and classes though. Thanks for cherry picking one.
Actually I commented on another one as well. You are talking about the dot stacking but not sure we are on the same page when we discuss it. Even if we allow each person to have all of their own dots on a mob that will not change the dps per person. It simply evens it out making it actually easier to determine how they should be handling mechanics and bosses. Not allowing dots to stack is actually much more detrimental due to have to assume what players will do. That never works out well for anyone.
What I mean by this is if dot classes can each put up all their own dots they have a set dps rating they should be around. That gives devs a better number to look at when designing the raid fights. If these same classes can not stack dots, then what? Will raids drop those classes to bring others that put out more dmg? Will they keep the same 3-4 necros and just assume the lost dps? How do you figure that into a fight? I can honestly say if dot's don't stack, my guild will only have 2 dot classes. There is not a single reason to have more because they don't offer anything unique and worthwhile.
And your argument about exceeding the highest dps classes is completely irrelevant because that is all about tuning and balancing which won't even take place until late beta. So there is no way you could possibly know that.
Dullahan said:Like Aradune said, its important to have enough options for each class to be able to choose a particular subset of spells while grouping with players of the same class.
Think you are again misinterpretting this. That or I am.
What I got from his statement was him refering to debuffs and such. Those things that will and should overwrite one another to prevent things from being too easy. If you could double malo mobs then resists wouldn't happen. Double slows means little to no damage. etc etc. Having to choose your damage spells when they are the only ones you have is a bit much. You are talking about taking 3/4s of a players damage away from them just because they have another person of that class in a raid.
Not sure why this is even being discussed honestly. If they want to go back to the old school EQ ways thats fine but there will be zero point to play the class other than solo. DoT spells stack for each person, IE 1 per person of each spell type and NOT stacking up to say 10 stacks of the same spell, is pretty much a must if you want to have any dot classes in the game at all. Hell even EQ went to this when they realized how bad an idea it is.
Let them play!!!
I like the idea of DOT type casters to be able to stack their abilities. The mana/dmg ratios can be adjusted to match that of other caster types when needed or when it makes sense. I see no reason why two Necros can't get together and DOT down mobs as they hang out together. Keep in mind, they still have aggro issues, pet control and other abilities that will probably keep them on their toes. Any other limitation makes no sense to me. A great point is two wizards can sit their and nuke same abilities and most likely get full effect. I think this should just be part of the game as it is logical.
It might be a programming nightmare, but I see it like this... if one DOT is cast early and has a duration of 30 seconds. The second DOT (same DOT different caster) is cast 10 seconds later, there would be single damage the first 10 seconds, double damage for 20 seconds, which then falls to single damage for last 10 seconds. Just makes sense...
I know the Pantheon Devs have quite a challenge making each class feel special and needed as they roam the world in their many unique scenarios... I just want them to be able to express their true abilities with as little "nerfing" along the way as possible.
Enitzu said:Will they keep the same 3-4 necros and just assume the lost dps? How do you figure that into a fight? I can honestly say if dot's don't stack, my guild will only have 2 dot classes. There is not a single reason to have more because they don't offer anything unique and worthwhile.
You make a lot of huge assumptions here. For instance, what if they have more than 3 main lines of dots? Sure, the ones in EQ could be kept up by 2 necros, but what if they had more? Sticking with necros because they were the DOT masters, what if such a class had other very important functions. It seems like you are always quick to assume that the developers here have not learned a single thing since 1999.
At some point though, there will be a soft cap on how many of a particular class should be in a group or raid. To some degree, they will want players to bring in a healthy mix in both of those scenarios. If it were up to me, all classes would be subject to similar limitations. I don't think you should ever see guilds filling as many spots in every group with rogues or wizards. When a wizard nukes, it might be wise for there to be some sort of residual debuff that prevents maximum damage from that spell for a certain amount of time. Strategizing and coordination should be a thing, and that means members of each class knowing what spells or abilities they should and should not be using at certain times.
Enitzu said:Dullahan said:Like Aradune said, its important to have enough options for each class to be able to choose a particular subset of spells while grouping with players of the same class.
Think you are again misinterpretting this. That or I am.
Gonna guess its you.
Aradune said:Sometimes if another player can put a better DoT on a mob that should mean that you perhaps use a different spell line or tactic.
Enitzu said:What I got from his statement was him refering to debuffs and such. Those things that will and should overwrite one another to prevent things from being too easy.
He said DOTs 4 times.
Enitzu said:Not sure why this is even being discussed honestly. If they want to go back to the old school EQ ways thats fine but there will be zero point to play the class other than solo. DoT spells stack for each person, IE 1 per person of each spell type and NOT stacking up to say 10 stacks of the same spell, is pretty much a must if you want to have any dot classes in the game at all. Hell even EQ went to this when they realized how bad an idea it is.
I'm sure visionary realms have taken note of some of the positive changes that have happened with EQ after Verant, and have learned from those things and probably dozens of other games. That said, many of us feel that the changes EQ underwent over the years were not necessarily good ones or even necessary ones. If anything, many of those changes showed a complete lack of understanding of the original developer intent and vision for EverQuest.
Shorten the duration of DoTs and increase their mana cost to compensate but don't allow them to stack, or limit the stacks on a single mob to 2. Multiple "dotters" in one group or raid can more easily chain them now because they expire more quickly, yet 1 single dotter will not be able to maintain 100% up time. This, in addition to whatever other utility they add, provides more of a balance. The damage will be done more quickly so mana will be used more quickly. The give and take here, compared to EQ, is a loss in potential solo ability and an increase in usefullness in raids. I think wild overcorrections should be avoided.
It's a difficult problem to solution. If DoTs aren't more efficient than DD spells, then they are a broken mechanic because they take longer. If the same DoTs between different players stack without an adjustment to their efficiency then they are broken OP. I don't think anyone wants to see groups of 6 necros(or whatever class in PRF) doing encounters better than any other combo like we saw with mages in EQ.
I think increasing the power of DoTs should be done very carefully. You never saw groups of 6 wizards running around for a reason. People are also acting like the dotters did ONLY that. Druids and Shamans, specifically, had a TREMENDOUS amount of other useful abilities. PRF can raise those classes to a new level with other useful abilities that guilds will want for raiding and groups will want for exping.
Krixus said:It's a difficult problem to solution. If DoTs aren't more efficient than DD spells, then they are a broken mechanic because they take longer. If the same DoTs between different players stack without an adjustment to their efficiency then they are broken OP. I don't think anyone wants to see groups of 6 necros(or whatever class in PRF) doing encounters better than any other combo like we saw with mages in EQ.
I think increasing the power of DoTs should be done very carefully. You never saw groups of 6 wizards running around for a reason. People are also acting like the dotters did ONLY that. PRF can raise those classes to a new level with other useful abilities that guilds will want for raiding and groups will want for exping.
Well said. This was the point I was trying to make. Though dots may not be the best dps, that kind of efficiency when stacked would provide an unmatched level of long-term dps.
For pantheon, this is mostly a balancing issue and that will be worked out in alpha/beta. If a class is too weak, or made too weak by the presence of another, then that will show up very quickly in class representation charts and then will probably get rebalanced.
Dullahan said:Take even a necro. In a group situation, all 3 had pets. That was a good portion of their DPS.
Necro pets were a small percent of their damgage, roughly equivalent to a single dot. In some dungeons groups even asked necros not to use pets due to pathing issues. Giving up the pet was a much smaller sacrifice to dmg than giving up dots.
flec said:For pantheon, this is mostly a balancing issue and that will be worked out in alpha/beta. If a class is too weak, or made too weak by the presence of another, then that will show up very quickly in class representation charts and then will probably get rebalanced.
Dullahan said:Take even a necro. In a group situation, all 3 had pets. That was a good portion of their DPS.
As a side-note, I strongly disagree with this statement for EQ1 though.Necro pets were a small percent of their damgage, roughly equivalent to a single dot. In some dungeons groups even asked necros not to use pets due to pathing issues. Giving up the pet was a much smaller sacrifice to dmg than giving up dots.
Sure on the pathing thing, but once a camp was established? And what era are you talking about? Necro pets straight up out DPS'd melee classes for long periods of time in the early years. The level 49 necro pet quad? hit for around 50. They were in no way shape or form a "small %" of their damage. They were the TOP means of damage.
Krixus said:Sure on the pathing thing, but once a camp was established? And what era are you talking about? Necro pets straight up out DPS'd melee classes for long periods of time in the early years. The level 49 necro pet quad? hit for around 50. They were in no way shape or form a "small %" of their damage. They were the TOP means of damage.
Heh, I was thinking the same thing. I mean just in Kunark, a necro monk pet would quad for 59s, flying kick for 70 and lifetap. With 65% haste they got 3 rounds off during 1 potential DOT tick. Thats 800 potential damage every 6 seconds versus Pyrocuror (the strongest DOT) which did only 111 every 6 seconds. Obviously, pets didn't get a quad every round, and didn't land every hit, bu I think "a good portion of their DPS" was pretty accurate.
Krixus said:Shorten the duration of DoTs and increase their mana cost to compensate but don't allow them to stack, or limit the stacks on a single mob to 2. Multiple "dotters" in one group or raid can more easily chain them now because they expire more quickly, yet 1 single dotter will not be able to maintain 100% up time. This, in addition to whatever other utility they add, provides more of a balance. The damage will be done more quickly so mana will be used more quickly. The give and take here, compared to EQ, is a loss in potential solo ability and an increase in usefullness in raids. I think wild overcorrections should be avoided.
Shortening the DoTs was going to be my next discussion point, it definitely has merits and for 2 players of the same class in a group and could work well. standalone Debuffs remaining longer would be good though.
Krixus said:
Sure on the pathing thing, but once a camp was established? And what era are you talking about? Necro pets straight up out DPS'd melee classes for long periods of time in the early years. The level 49 necro pet quad? hit for around 50. They were in no way shape or form a "small %" of their damage. They were the TOP means of damage.
just remembering the times when Necro pets hits were effected by the delay of weapons but not the damage and loading up some ultra low delay daggers on good ol' Kebarn... man that was some crazy dps
Dullahan said:Krixus said:Sure on the pathing thing, but once a camp was established? And what era are you talking about? Necro pets straight up out DPS'd melee classes for long periods of time in the early years. The level 49 necro pet quad? hit for around 50. They were in no way shape or form a "small %" of their damage. They were the TOP means of damage.
Heh, I was thinking the same thing. I mean just in Kunark, a necro monk pet would quad for 59s, flying kick for 70 and lifetap. With 65% haste they got 3 rounds off during 1 potential DOT tick. Thats 800 potential damage every 6 seconds versus Pyrocuror (the strongest DOT) which did only 111 every 6 seconds. Obviously, pets didn't get a quad every round, and didn't land every hit, bu I think "a good portion of their DPS" was pretty accurate.
I know for a fact necro pets did ridiculous DPS at launch, if it wasn't for /taunt and timed /slams, my warrior could have been replaced by pets (mage pet as well). And, not trying to brag, but just for reference - I had a Bloodfire and a Crystaline Spear at launch with a cloak of flames so it wasn't that I had bad gear.
I also know as my necro I added a lot of utility outside of just dots, especially obviously with undead. If I was playing with a second necro, I would try to charm a pet. I'd also feed health - I saved quite a few groups with my "ghetto" necro heals. Not only that, they had undead DDs and conjuration DDs with spells like Shock of Poison / Ingite Bones etc and the Ward undead line. And, they had enough DoT lines that you could work with another necromancer to say you cast Darkness, Venom of the Snake, and Boil Blood and I'll take Bond of death, asystole, and scourge.
The only issue I saw with DoT stacking in EQ was with the raiding scene, but, even then, without having the hard raid caps it wasn't a huge issue at least not in the guilds I was in as lifetaps were some of the least resisted spells, and at that point, I was in more "hardcore" raiding guilds and we didn't tell the 4th necro to stay home.
Where I have seen it as an issue is if a raid is hard capped at 24 (or less), then the optimal group will want to be taken.
I think VG dealt with lower lvl spells not being able to even hit a mob 10lvls higher than the spell. Could be wrong after they brought in the strike through, hit, and rest of new gear. Though raiding in VG we had a bard in every group healers in every group most of the time 1-2 groups with a tank or 2 the rest filled out with ever other dps and caster in the game. But if you have 2 of the same I think the damage should stack not the debuffs. It's just up to the testers and devs to make it right so only one of the dps classes is over loaded by make cc a big part of the game and debuffing.
The monk pet was def the best dps pet we had, but it was also lvl 44 and missed and hit for partials a lot. Necros called our pets our best dot, and they were. Perfectly efficient and you could kill almost anything outside with just the pet and darkness (very slowly) if you wanted. But in a group, a necro doing nothing but healing and sending the pet would not have been good dmg. Wish I had my old logs to prove it, but that was a long time ago. Found my parser but not my log dir :-(
Now there WERE bugs and exploits that made pets OP during times. Early on you could give low level pet big weapons and they would pretty much 1 shot mobs. The fine steel dagger haste made them OP for a while. The weighted axe until they nerfed it. And the best of all, the stalker probe/eye of xomm bug that let you summon unlimited pets. But all of those things got fixed.
Anyway, the pet was certaintly not half the dmg. Even if it was though, would it be reasonable for a char to have their dps cut in half because another of their class was present? I was going to make the analogy of melee chars doing half dmg if another of their class was with them because I figured that would be considered very bad to people. But someone above kindof suggested that as a way to force groups to mix up their classes haha. Not a fan of that idea but I agree it would force groups to be more diverse.
In the end it won't matter much. Necros are not even going to be in at launch, so there likely will not be a primarily dot class in pantheon. It seems very strange to me to not allow dots to stack but as long as there is a way to play my class to its full potential I will be happy.
And launching a game now is very different than it was back then. Balance issues stayed hidden a lot longer. There will be people writing parsers and making ranking sites during the beta I am sure. So any class imbalance will be found very quickly.
Kazingathi said:I think VG dealt with lower lvl spells not being able to even hit a mob 10lvls higher than the spell. Could be wrong after they brought in the strike through, hit, and rest of new gear. Though raiding in VG we had a bard in every group healers in every group most of the time 1-2 groups with a tank or 2 the rest filled out with ever other dps and caster in the game. But if you have 2 of the same I think the damage should stack not the debuffs. It's just up to the testers and devs to make it right so only one of the dps classes is over loaded by make cc a big part of the game and debuffing.
Lower level spells and debuffs etc. not only hit high level mobs in most cases they stuck under high-level spells that were the upgraded versions, a lot of high-end guilds used this trick on the Imperial War Golem as the mobs mechanic was to strip a ton of raid wide buffs every so often, so stacking as many buffs as possible helped get that extra dps out to help burn him down before the raid wiped ;)