How do people feel about gear scaling?
On the one hand it's a good gaming 'imperative' to want/need to enhance ones gear. To be able to take your level 1 gear to level cap would perhaps be undesirable, but on the other I've often found it gutting to have a beloved piece of equipment (either because of looks or a particular ability or just the in-game or RL story behind getting it) become obselete.
So any ideas on items changing/scaling in some way so as to not become so bad (relative to your level) that you have to replace them or you're gimping yourself?
Perhaps damage could scale with you not the weapon? (I honestly can't remember how the damage stat worked back in EQ! Doh! Old age is a terrible thing...)
Perhaps stats could scale?
Perhaps you could reforge or enhance items to help them keep up?
Perhaps gear stats as a whole should be less vital in Pantheon so you don't feel the need to constantly upgrade?
I actually like changing gear as I level up - though it should be graduated and not something that HAS to happen each level. It promotes exploration as you seek out new gear and it gives a sense of accomplishment when you finally find something that suits your needs. I also like stats on my gear. That way, I can max out Dex as part of my character ability points as I level and go abount seeking out Str and Con gear to balance out my build.
I really like the idea of moving the aesthetics from one item to another though. This forging/skinning could be one of the various crafting services offered by characters and should need some raw materials to help achieve.
In EQ you just had two stats for weapons, damage and delay. Starting at some level (20+?) you got a damage bonus, which helped keep weapons useful longer.
IMO, weapons should be what they are, and it should not be possible to change them very much (maybe through augments, but these shouldn't change the basic weapon stats). Of course, turning a (quested) weapon in for an improved weapon would be a cool thing (maybe for an epic weapon?).
Umbra said:...I really like the idea of moving the aesthetics from one item to another though. This forging/skinning could be one of the various crafting services offered by characters...
Agreed and I almost talked more about it in my OP, but I've commented elsewhere on cosmetics. It would definitely mitigate the pain of giving up that treasured item if you could continue to use its look.
Not a huge fan of scaling gear (actually, I completely abhor the idea).
I've always felt it was a lazy way of circumbenting having to create new and interesting gear that players want.
Games like EQ and VG were all about milestones. You would log in, and play, to achieve the next milestone, whether that be gear, levels, exploration, etc. Gear being one of the best milestones. Something to work and strive for, that next upgrade. Getting on websites like Everlore and just browsing the gear, planning what I wanted to get next. Working towards your characters progression. It was great.
-Tryaln
Tralyan said:...I've always felt it was a lazy way of circumbenting having to create new and interesting gear that players want.
That's true and I totally get that some folks see gear as a 'progression' feature as much as xp and skills, but not me really. I kinda want 'special' gear to *be* special and being rare is a big part of that. If special items are expected every few levels then, for me, they cease being special. If special items are rare then replacing them is rarer still and that's when I started thinking about scaling.
But, absolutely, if the devs design lots of cool items, then gear scaling isn't an issue.
I am of the mind that if you are fighting in a slightly higher level content (relative to your level), that any drops that happen should be usable by your character. However I am also of the opinion that the benefit of the gear shouldn't be fully realized due to the fact you haven't learned enough about the items power or ability. So I am not in favor of a level 50 item being weilded of a level 5 player in that it might unbalance gameplay at the lower levels.
Short story even shorter... the item should have an upper cap equivalent to the mob that it dropped from. It should also be limited to something like 5 levels (or which ever makes sense) with some form of reduced stats in so much that a group of similiar leveled players could have actually aquired the items in group play.
The only logical way this would be possible, at least in my opinion, would be to have all weapons be purely cosmetic. They have no stats or anything. Once you get them you would then have to imbue it with a stone or relic of some sort which would give it it's power. That way it grows with you. The more magic you imbue within it the stronger it becomes
I remember something from VG in Beta 3 I think it was. I want to say it was called Equipment Expertise(EE). Basically there were no levels to gear. sort of like how EQ was when I played. So anyone could wear anything...almost. The trick to it was each peice of gear had a value. At level 1 you could wield that Sword of Awesomness but its EE value took up 100% of you available points. So you went in naked with it equiped. So as an alternative you would most likely get lower level things, more your "level" things to round yourself out. Going into battle with just one or two pieces of gear that were way above something you would normally get on your own would actually be bad for you. That sword might give you a million dps but you would die once anything hit you.
I dont remember how it scalled, if you had 100% EE on your character and the percentage that a piece of gear took of that 100 changed as you leveled or if you just gained more EE points as you leveled. But regardless that same Sword of Awesomness would not be the only thin you could wield after a few or dozen more levels. This would make it so gear could potentially last you longer. You could use it it different set ups. Would do wonders for the economy as well. Lots more stuff would have lots more potential buyers.
I liked the idea for two main reasons. One is freedom. Really lets you make your characte as you want them. Being in a sandbox is all about freedom right? Want to always go sans gloves and boots by always getting an overpowered breast plate? Do it. Maybe you are a roleplayer and your guy cant stand to wear jewelry, then dont and get better daggers. You get to choose. And the EE system if done right will bake a balance of sorts so that you don't become twinked out like some of the guys in the old EQ days. A savy player can gain some benefit if they match playstile up with gear choices but noone will get overpowered.
I also like it because its another choice you have to make that adds strategy to the game. Just like having limited spell slots to mem your spells in you will have to make choices here. Before you would get the best peice of gear that you could obtain for each slot you had. Now you can get even better stuff but might have to sacrifice somthing else that is less important to you. What you are sacrificing might still be important to your survival but you a are making choice to lose it because you want to modify your playstile instead.
This would just be another was to deal with gear scaling. Might be a bit of work to get it going on the back end but once its done it would mean that you would not have to have as many "sets" of gear in game. Some games have a set at 5, 10,15, 20, 25, ect. Here things wont have a level and can be spread out. You might not see a drop for arms for 5 levels. Wont matter if you got a good ring this level. Just seems like it opens up more options without taking much away.
That strikes me as both very weird and very interesting, Sabot ;)
I kinda think you're exchanging one freedom/mechanic for another though - you can use 'higher level' items, but might somehow only have the 'skill' to use 1 or 2 because they are better? Hmm.
I guess I've never really understood gear 'levels' at all. In D&D a longsword did 1d8 damage. At level 10 you might have come across a magic sword doing 1d8+1. At level 20 maybe 1d8+2. Gear was very desirable, but it was the character using it that was the powerful bit. Your strength had more effect on your damage than a good sword could. Whatever happened in RPGs to make it so a swords damage is expected to go up something 100% every level such that a sword you have at level 10 is somehow able to exact 10 times more damage than the one the blacksmith made you back home?
Maybe it's not gear scaling that we need to get things back in hand. Maybe it's level-less gear that we need and to seriously reign in the bonuses?
Maybe I'm so used to 'modern' RPGs and constant gear replacement that I'm worrying about nothing because Pantheon won't go that way?
I'm just having a look at Allakhazam to remind myself though and the range is still pretty big: -
Raw Short Sword DMG 2 DELAY 40
Tarnished Short Sword 4 and 26 (is that like a 300% better weapon?)
Gold-Bladed Short Sword 6/31
Pale Golden-Bladed Short Sword 8/31
Gem-Hilted Short Sword 10/32
Gemmed Short Sword 14/32
Razor Sharp Short Sword 16/26
Elegant Defiant Shortsword 24/21
So 'low' to 'high' (and I'm sure I've missed higher) a weapon somehow capable of inflicting wounds 1200% more serious? It's made up and guesstimated figures (someone still playing EQ can maybe tell me better, please?) but it's looking like you pretty regularly need to upgrade or feel quite underpowered?
I'm waffling somewhat, but what it comes down to is this: I'm sure I remember in early EQ that is was *really* special to get a new item especially a 'magic' one or one with bonuses. I have found it depressing in more recent games to be constantly discarding gear I just got. I get an item I really like and fought hard to get and within a couple of levels it's junk.
I've played Zelda Hydrule Warriors a bit with my son, and they have a neat feature on there for some rare weapons - where they have a bonus that unlocks after killing xx,xxx amount of a specific npc.
IMO i think that'd be an acceptable way to unlock/progress some weapons, that and it makes some sense to me. Give someone a weapon to swing around immediately and they aren't really comfortable with it. Have them use that weapon for countless fights and it becomes an extension of their body.
Lokkan said:I've played Zelda Hydrule Warriors a bit with my son, and they have a neat feature on there for some rare weapons - where they have a bonus that unlocks after killing xx,xxx amount of a specific npc.IMO i think that'd be an acceptable way to unlock/progress some weapons, that and it makes some sense to me. Give someone a weapon to swing around immediately and they aren't really comfortable with it. Have them use that weapon for countless fights and it becomes an extension of their body.
That's definitely a role-playing rationale for scaling there. Would be nice to attune to a weapon so as to extend it's usefulness for a while...
I don't think gear should scale. It should be what it is. Your character scales. This dynamic is already in place. When you kill mobs, you get experience. When you get enough experience you level, when you level you can increase you skills by continuing to use them.
It is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
Krixus said:I don't think gear should scale. It should be what it is. Your character scales. This dynamic is already in place. When you kill mobs, you get experience. When you get enough experience you level, when you level you can increase you skills by continuing to use them.
It is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
Agreed. This is why I play games like these.
I like the idea of some items scaling if it makes sense. Especially at higher levels it could be a cool thing. There was a quest in an EQ emu (SoD) where a ring you received would absorb the souls of certain monster's you killed avenging the death of the NPC that originally gave you the ring. It would get stronger each time. I thought that was a pretty neat dynamic.
I think there are other situations where items could scale up in different ways. For instance, an epic could become at epic v2. If certain weapons have some sort of story behind them, it might make sense if there was a way to power the item up further or even "charge it up" for lack of a better term. Say, Wand of Giant Slaying could actually become stronger by killing giants.
I wouldnt want to see gear scaling implemented where you can use a lvl 1 rusty dagger all the way to end-game, but adding in rare "evolving items" that level up through 3-5 power levels as you use them would be a welcome addition. We saw this later in EQ.
All gear scaling? Definitely not. To me, equipping and enjoying a new upgrade with noticable improvement is preferable over gear scaling to my level, which feels pretty boring and unrewarding. A good analogy here would be getting a 500 piece puzzle for your birthday that you really wanted, only to find the box is empty with a note that says "You'll receive one puzzle piece in the mail every day for the next 500 days. Enjoy!" At least this is how I envision gear scaling would feel to me -- boring and unrewarding. This could be thwarted in part by scaling in tiers, but you'd still miss out on the sweet dopamine release from scoring a huge upgrade from a random drop. It would also place even more emphasis on quick leveling, so your gear upgrades. Just spitballing here, but I dont think I'm finding a gear scaling scenario that I like.
While I wouldn't want it for everyday items, some of the more epic or iconic items should be able to increase in power. This could be as simple as a quest introduced with the new expansion to keep your Innoruuk's Curse from being replaced in the first end game grouping zone. And please, if we introduce monk sashes/belts can we have the final one be a black with further upgrades adding degrees to said black sash/belt? Nothing sucked in EQ more than getting your final sash and it isn't even all that useful to your character except as a quest item.
Dekaden said:adding in rare "evolving items" that level up through 3-5 power levels as you use them would be a welcome addition. We saw this later in EQ.
To me this has the opposite effect. Now when I get an item I'm less thrilled because I'm not getting the full meal deal. EQ2 had this and to me it was unfulfilling. I wasn't happy to see it scale, I was sad that it had to before I got my real item.
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly IS gear scaling? Is it that gear becomes weaker as you level??
Krixus said:Dekaden said:adding in rare "evolving items" that level up through 3-5 power levels as you use them would be a welcome addition. We saw this later in EQ.
Too me this has the opposite effect. Now when I get an item I'm less thrilled because I'm not getting the full meal deal. EQ2 had this and to me it was unfulfilling. I wasn't happy to see it scale, I was sad that it had to before I got my real item.
I know what you're saying, but that is kind of going out of your way to look at the glass half empty. I could argue the same thing about getting any item that isn't "the best." [mock sarcasm] "Oh yay, a Gleaming Sword of Slaying. Too bad it isn't as good as Suchandsuch sword of doom."
Dullahan said:Krixus said:Dekaden said:adding in rare "evolving items" that level up through 3-5 power levels as you use them would be a welcome addition. We saw this later in EQ.
Too me this has the opposite effect. Now when I get an item I'm less thrilled because I'm not getting the full meal deal. EQ2 had this and to me it was unfulfilling. I wasn't happy to see it scale, I was sad that it had to before I got my real item.
I know what you're saying, but that is kind of going out of your way to look at the glass half empty. I could argue the same thing about getting any item that isn't "the best." [mock sarcasm] "Oh yay, a Gleaming Sword of Slaying. Too bad it isn't as good as Suchandsuch sword of doom."
I get both sides here, and have argued both ways in the past. I think like much of anything, if nearly every item was an evolving item then I would hate the system. However, if "evolving" items were in the realm of EQ epic quests and the Coldain Prayer Shawl / Ring quests, then I could be more on board with it.
I wouldn't want Emporer Crush to drop an evolving Crush Tunic, it should be what it is. But, I could see how certain items could grow in power through enhancements/understanding/lore/quests, etc.
So... in my convoluted answer, I would be ok with it if it makes sense?
Dullahan said:Krixus said:Dekaden said:adding in rare "evolving items" that level up through 3-5 power levels as you use them would be a welcome addition. We saw this later in EQ.
Too me this has the opposite effect. Now when I get an item I'm less thrilled because I'm not getting the full meal deal. EQ2 had this and to me it was unfulfilling. I wasn't happy to see it scale, I was sad that it had to before I got my real item.
I know what you're saying, but that is kind of going out of your way to look at the glass half empty. I could argue the same thing about getting any item that isn't "the best." [mock sarcasm] "Oh yay, a Gleaming Sword of Slaying. Too bad it isn't as good as Suchandsuch sword of doom."
Scaling doesn't make sense to me. We already have skills that increase as we level that greatly impact our offense and defense. Why suddenly is my breastplate 2 more AC than it was 5 levels ago? My defense went up, that's the skill that indicates my ability to defend myself in combat. Why does the item itself need to change when this mechanic of improvement with experience is already in place? /shrug It's not a big deal but it just seems like a somewhat cheesy mechanic that a game like EQ2 used because they wanted to squeeze more out of loot that didn't have enough value/meaning to the player in the first place.