I just giggle when someone says they have a simple solution to a complex problem...only their solution isn't simple and wouldn't solve the problem. Nobody yet has defined slow or fast; nor defined all possible time sinks; nor defined TTK; nor define any number of dozens of variables involved in determining the rate at which you gain XP.
Wolfsong said:I'm not in a hurry to level up and reach the end.
......
Nah. I'm ready to return to something that plays like an actual long-term adventure in a virtual world. Not just another game.
yes I agree besides if something is there no one is forcing anyone to use it, it's the players choice what content/utilities they partake in.
also yes this might just be our last shot to enjoy a truelly great MMO and everyone is very passionate about it heck if I won big in the lottery tomorrow I'd just become an investor sit back and enjoy the game as soon as it was out. Our passion for the game needs to be mixed with logic and understanding. Not everyone has the same ability to enjoy a hard core game like before. I was single a steady job and my own place so I could play 18-20 hours a day 4-5 days in a row (on my days off)now I have a wife kids my own small company in the oil industry so I'm just trying to keep my head above water. So obviously my game time has some what changed but I still make time to play 20-30 hours a week if at all possible. so like a lot of people I need to understand that my game needs and requirements are different then the next. I will express my opinion on certain points and coments but in the end if the game is hard rewards you for your efforts and is a fun social game I'll be quite happy to play it and to work with the devs to find a way around any issues if there is one to be found if not I'll just have to deal with it and enjoy it for what it is an MMORPG For hard core gamers.
Vandraad said:I just giggle when someone says they have a simple solution to a complex problem...only their solution isn't simple and wouldn't solve the problem. Nobody yet has defined slow or fast; nor defined all possible time sinks; nor defined TTK; nor define any number of dozens of variables involved in determining the rate at which you gain XP.
Vandraad, I believe the solution of having 2 or 3 ruleset servers is a simple one.
This has already done in EQ1; Normal, FV, Zeks, TLP, Stormhammer.
How different each servers' rulesets would be from eachother could be the complex part indeed, depending on just how different VR would choose to make them from each other.
(as I mentioned the ratios I threw out were just examples based on what I'd read others talking about, there's no way VR would just plug in an exp rate, call it a day and walk away based on a forum post from any of us.)
Like many have said, most of us trust them to make the game balanced and enjoyable for the largest group of our "niche".
If that means having a couple rule sets that make sense after they have a solid framework of a game in place, then they will do that, if it doesn't make sense then they won't.
I'm thinking in broad strokes for down the line after launch when they get a feel for how we are progressing, an even harder server could be launched for those who want a different level of challenge and less comforts.
I think VR has a pretty good idea of what they are going to do already and while they listen to our ideas, they are gamers making their game and we will get to enjoy what they make when it's done.
In the mean time it's interesting to kick around ideas and discuss possibilities for classes, spells, zones, server settings, etc.
i havent seen many people (maybe 2 or 3) who actually would not want an LFG tool. what most do not want is a Groupbuilder Tool. one where you just put in your info then the game ques everyone and builds the group automatically. an LFG tool that just lists names and allows easy sorting and maybe some notes, is not really something anyone is agianst. as for leveling rate, i think whatever VR decides is good with me (as long as i cant get to max level in 48 hours). that being said, there are many who do not want maps in the game, but alot of these would be sated with something like a cartography skill that has to be trained and POI's installed manually. This would allow for Cartography to be a craftskill with a tradeable commodity which would affect the economy and be a bit more realistic than a world with no maps available to be purchased.
So in summary if there was going to be a HC / Traditional server rulesets i think there would have to be more differences than just a few less UI windows and a different exp/drop rate (i am actually totally agianst differing drop/xp rate by server)
I would say that with the HC server no maps, no Lfg tool, No zonewide chats, no exp return on rezz, No lockout timers on encounters, all gear is nodrop (except crafted), no lockouts on corpses (allowing for ninjalooting & maybe even allowing for players corpses to be looted if one is stumbled apon while adventuring) This would be HardCore!
Celandor said:Pantz said:I trust they will find a nice balance.
Two thumbs up for Pantz's trust in the VR team to balance the game. This isn't their first picnic.
My biggest fear for Pantheon is that it comes out looking like it was designed by a committee whose good intentions turned it into a Frankenmmorpg.
There are great reasons for having multiple servers with different rule sets. I don't believe that "difficulty" is one of those. If Pantheon is well designed, there will be things to do for casual players and things to do for hard core gamers. For the basic mechanics, such as mana recovery rates or travel, we need to let the devs do their job and make Pantheon a fun yet challenging game.
The generation that grew up getting trophies for simply showing up at sporting events may not like the fact that you can't get the best gear in game after six months of playing two hours per week. Some content should be reserved for the hard core gamers who are willing to do 4 hour raids and spend many months getting geared up to survive in those zones.
That said, the game needs to be fun for everyone, regardless of how much time you can devote. In MMORPGs there always need to be something to challenge you and you should never feel that you "won" or "maxxed out" in the game. Previous games have failed in this regard because the emphasis was on the end game and not the journey. Pantheon needs to have interesting and challenging encounters for all level ranges and requires basic safeguards which prevent low level content being trivialized by undue influence of high level players. Make level 15 as much fun as level 50 and I can't see how anyone wouldn't enjoy the game whether they play for 4 hours per week or forty.
If you watched the Live Twitch feed we saw a party of level 7 players absolutely having a blast doing a crawl through an outdoor region. There were traps/puzzles to solve, respawns to deal with, gross overpulling and death... Everything you'd want to find in much higher level dungeons and elements that were basically lacking at that level in vintage EQ.
Have faith.
+1 Well said!
Oh, and no different difficulties per server, please.
Just give me a traditional challenging game. I'd maybe even play PvP but really I'd just like to play a regular server. RP isn't for me but at least it creates an entirely different environment from that of a regular server. I believe that if we are going to divide the player base then these extra rulesets have to create a unique play experience.
I wouldn't care if we had two servers where one is easy mobs vs one who has harder mobs. If the traditional server is just mobs with less HP and less damage output and where levels require less xp etc etc vs the hardcore server where mobs have more HP and higher damage etc etc then cool, you can find me on the hard server.
I don't know what would make a great hardocre server but if we are going to separate our player base any further then this hardcore server needs to create a unique environment. RP servers contain the same exact game but with just that little feature it creates an entirely different world. Having two servers where the game is the exact same just with easier mobs doesn't really create any different of a world or push any boundaries. If you are looking for an easy game then I'd suggest looking elsewhere. Not saying anybody is, I'm just stating that a hardcore server has to be more than just numbers. Possibly the way survival games feature harder environments or maybe like how some of the SKyrim mods made Skyrim 'harder' would be cool. Sleeping/resting to avoid fatigue or eating and drinking to stay hydrated and healthy or just staying warm and avoiding frost bite could be some features of the hardcore server. Maybe creating harder caveats within the AI so mobs become more social and behave differently to make them harder to engage and combat. Maybe giving bosses random skill sets so if you engage raid boss A one week they attack you with a specific skill set but if you fight raid boss A a different week they have a completely different set of skills. Again, something to alter the enviroment and experience altogether rather than just altering numbers and variables is something I'd welcome.
If the game is built right in the first place (and I have faith it will be), then I don't think a hardcore server will be necessary. Besides, unless the already small dev team were to split their attention, then it's really not possible to do "right." Of course you could change things like XP curves, gold drop, run speed, and things like that, but baseline mana regen, loot tables, and damage done, for example might require 2 separate versions of the game.
I say go with one server type, and adjust accordinly based on all feedback. Server rulesets notwhithstanding, of course. It's much easier to implement and enforce RP naming policies or to allow PvP. Those I fully support.
Wanderica said:If the game is built right in the first place (and I have faith it will be), then I don't think a hardcore server will be necessary. Besides, unless the already small dev team were to split their attention, then it's really not possible to do "right." Of course you could change things like XP curves, gold drop, run speed, and things like that, but baseline mana regen, loot tables, and damage done, for example might require 2 separate versions of the game.
I say go with one server type, and adjust accordinly based on all feedback. Server rulesets notwhithstanding, of course. It's much easier to implement and enforce RP naming policies or to allow PvP. Those I fully support.
I started to post this yesterday, but decided I was tired of trying to explain it. Yet here I am again.
Yes, if VR sticks to Pantheon's tenets, a HC server won't be necessary. But since there is always objections arising, I thought putting forth a hardcore option might offer an alternative in the event some things turn out more modernized than we hoped. If nothing else, I'd have hoped it would help put some of the naysayers at ease. Then beyond those things, there are opportunities to have a better roleplay environment, a higher immersion focus, and of course race wars and other forms of PvP. Its really just a win, win, yet somehow theres always a few who just want everyone to play their idea of Pantheon.
Raptorsbane said:~Hardcore MegaServer 1: mostly EQ1 vanilla, getting to lvl 1 takes 4-8 hours, exp to cap takes 6+ months, 0 mana to full takes 5+ min to med up, possibly more NO DROP gear. Any new fluff mechanics and UI windows that are not integral to VR's vision to the game would be switched off on this server.
~Traditional MegaServer 1: mostly EQ1 vanilla, getting to lvl 1 takes under an hour, exp to cap takes about 3+ months, 0 mana to full takes 3-5 min, a few modern comforts such as: a very simple window showing who is LFG but would still require a tell being manually sent to that person for invite, possibly some type of assisted looting but no full on aoe auto loot.
I think having different servers would be a fundamental mistake. Everything I have read on this forum has been pretty much in agreement with option one the hardcore server. But I disagree that adding a simple LFG tool like the one in EQ makes the game "easier". More efficient and convenient perhaps but not easier. You still have to send tells to people and you still have to manually form up a group and you still have to interact with the community. So I'd rather see a mix between the two. Longer leveling times with some simple conviences added, no NO DROP items at all like Firona Vie, long medding times etc. I dislike the whole concept of NO DROP loot to be honest. I'd much rather see it removed completely with the small possible exception of maybe some quest drops being NO DROP.
Roleplaying is very big with some people
PVP is limited and should be to 1 server due to populations.
No drop loot was to slow down the community since the expacs seem to be too short, or not enough time to complete the work required due to the size of the team. I am best guessing this.
I agree, no drop sucks because if you want to multi box your accounts trading between your characters to level up or just have fun in a newbie zone should be ok. You should be able to buy or sell whatever you want in order to twink your lowbie.
Agreed having an easy server and x y z servers sounds like a bad idea. No reason to open pandora's box. These aren't "different ruleset" servers proposed, they're almost different games being proposed. Let the developers get a footing on time/difficulty first, and let them adjust it if they see fit. The only feedback that should be taken into thought is if something is too easy. If it's too hard - let it ride.
PVP. PVE. RP. Maybe RP-PVP if you have enough interest. The game is the game, getting to level 50 should be about the same XP wise no matter what server you are on.
I really can't see people looking for the next WoW or Rift flocking to this game creating demand for a toned down ruleset server. This is simply not the game for them. The fact that they have stated PVP will not cause big nerfs to class balance is a huge problem for those kinds of players...
Korocus said:yes I agree besides if something is there no one is forcing anyone to use it, it's the players choice what content/utilities they partake in.
Korocus said:also yes this might just be our last shot to enjoy a truelly great MMO and everyone is very passionate about it heck if I won big in the lottery tomorrow I'd just become an investor sit back and enjoy the game as soon as it was out. Our passion for the game needs to be mixed with logic and understanding. Not everyone has the same ability to enjoy a hard core game like before. I was single a steady job and my own place so I could play 18-20 hours a day 4-5 days in a row (on my days off)now I have a wife kids my own small company in the oil industry so I'm just trying to keep my head above water. So obviously my game time has some what changed but I still make time to play 20-30 hours a week if at all possible. so like a lot of people I need to understand that my game needs and requirements are different then the next. I will express my opinion on certain points and coments but in the end if the game is hard rewards you for your efforts and is a fun social game I'll be quite happy to play it and to work with the devs to find a way around any issues if there is one to be found if not I'll just have to deal with it and enjoy it for what it is an MMORPG For hard core gamers.
I have no problem with some "minor" tweeking to the EQ experience but my biggest reason isnt that i want something pure and true to the original as much as I want something that attracts the gammers that are interested in accomplishing things together by building groups that can truly team and coordinate their actions. Its about the experience of accomplishment as much as the loot and xp for me. Would also be a benifit IMO that the hardcore theme will repel the Immature crowd that tends to ruin the experience at least for me.
There are ways to get the 'EQ experience' without making the game feel tedious and old. Give me the EQ experience with updated graphics, UI, and up to date features. No mounts, slow leveling, everything droppable, epic quests, etc etc. What I don't need is 3 hours of time sinks in a 4-5 hour play session.
I agree splintering the community is a bad idea. When you try to appease everyone, no one is happy. I think both sides need to realize that while they may not get the EXACT game they are looking for they may find somthing new and challenging.
The team has already stated (and things to keep in mind) A) It's going to be be a game where leveling means something, and it's not going to be a mad-rush to end game. B) "Grinding" will not just be the same tedious way it's been done in the past, but grouping and killing mobs will certainly be part of the leveling experience. C) While the devs are obviously targeting a specific adudience the game still needs to make money, and if it doesnt we all lose.
Roenick said:C) While the devs are obviously targeting a specific adudience the game still needs to make money, and if it doesnt we all lose.
This is what a lot of people don't get. They all want their hardcore game but without a player base the game will fail. Sometimes you need to look at what you're willing to give up in order to get what you ultimately want. It's called compromise.
Enitzu said:Roenick said:C) While the devs are obviously targeting a specific adudience the game still needs to make money, and if it doesnt we all lose.
This is what a lot of people don't get. They all want their hardcore game but without a player base the game will fail. Sometimes you need to look at what you're willing to give up in order to get what you ultimately want. It's called compromise.
It's funny, while often overlooked as the "middle child" of the EQ verse. I think Everquest Online Adventures was a fantastic game that sits somewhere between EQ and WoW. The ruleset was a little less hardcore than EQ but still extremely challenging, group oriented, and most likely ahead of it's time. If Pantheon can get close to where that game sat on the spectrum of things I think it would be a good compromise and still cater to both the respective parties we're talking about here.
Pretty new here, but not new to MMORPGs so, I'm gonna wade right in...
...I'm hoping different rulesets won't be necessary. I think it's totally possible to have a few 'mod-cons' without trivialising or detracting from the game and if anyone can do it, VR can.
For example, the LFG tool: If it is developed so as to simply remove the drudgery, then great. In traditional EQ you might spend hours travelling zone-to-zone /yelling some weird short-hand text finding camps taken and groups full (and half the players not knowing or caring what the heck you're spamming). Not a 'hardcore' test of skill or a social, role-playing experience, just boring/annoying.
So, something to ease that would be great, no? Sure, let's NOT have a game-wide LFG with instant teleport to the dungeon group facility (I'm looking at you, Rift. The "Instant Adventures" feature totally trivialises the game), but how about an LFG chat window with filters so you are put in touch with those you require? How about not being able to use LFG for a dungeon/area you've never been to? There's any number of ways to have your mod con and not ruin the game such that some players can't live with it.
Enitzu said:Roenick said:C) While the devs are obviously targeting a specific adudience the game still needs to make money, and if it doesnt we all lose.
This is what a lot of people don't get. They all want their hardcore game but without a player base the game will fail. Sometimes you need to look at what you're willing to give up in order to get what you ultimately want. It's called compromise.
Translation: if they don't add the convenience that I want to the game, Pantheon will fail.
Enitzu said:Roenick said:C) While the devs are obviously targeting a specific adudience the game still needs to make money, and if it doesnt we all lose.
This is what a lot of people don't get. They all want their hardcore game but without a player base the game will fail. Sometimes you need to look at what you're willing to give up in order to get what you ultimately want. It's called compromise.
What's to compromise on? You have absolute zero facts to back up your assumption that if VR doesnot compromise on the tenents they set out for the game, that they will fail. This is what I just dont get. You have seen nothing of the game save the 2 hour twitch session and you are already sounding the death Gnoll (like what I did there :) ) unless VR compromises on things. You can't even list what they should compromise on cause you don't yet know the specifics of what the game is delivering. How about folks take a deep breath, keep dreaming of the game they hope that VR is making for them, put forward a little bit of faith, and wait until you can get into Alpha/Beta. Just my 2 cents...
It's funny, while often overlooked as the "middle child" of the EQ verse. I think Everquest Online Adventures was a fantastic game that sits somewhere between EQ and WoW. The ruleset was a little less hardcore than EQ but still extremely challenging, group oriented, and most likely ahead of it's time. If Pantheon can get close to where that game sat on the spectrum of things I think it would be a good compromise and still cater to both the respective parties we're talking about here.
Yeah Roenik (sry abt ur name going form memory)- Aradune felt the sme way about EQOA regarding game-play.
I never played EQOA
starchildren3317 said:Enitzu said:Roenick said:C) While the devs are obviously targeting a specific adudience the game still needs to make money, and if it doesnt we all lose.
This is what a lot of people don't get. They all want their hardcore game but without a player base the game will fail. Sometimes you need to look at what you're willing to give up in order to get what you ultimately want. It's called compromise.
What's to compromise on? You have absolute zero facts to back up your assumption that if VR doesnot compromise on the tenents they set out for the game, that they will fail. This is what I just dont get. You have seen nothing of the game save the 2 hour twitch session and you are already sounding the death Gnoll (like what I did there :) ) unless VR compromises on things. You can't even list what they should compromise on cause you don't yet know the specifics of what the game is delivering. How about folks take a deep breath, keep dreaming of the game they hope that VR is making for them, put forward a little bit of faith, and wait until you can get into Alpha/Beta. Just my 2 cents...
Asumming you are talking to Entizu there, but in case you aren't just want to say personally I'm in the Hard(er)core camp.
That said, there are definately drawbacks to making an EQ clone. We tend to look at things with rose-tinted glasses sometimes, and if you're trying to create a game that feels welcoming to newer players some changes will have to be made from that model. My original point had more to do with the team knowing who their audience is, not ostracizing said community members, but also creating something that will bring in enough revenue to sustain the game.
Again, I think we all want close to the same thing: A challenging game that relies on community and where your time feels well spent. Pretty sure the team is all too aware at this stage.