I really liked the impact food/stamina had originally in Everquest, if you did not have it you were in deep trouble. This is a major aspect of the game that is missing from P99 due to coding restrictions, and a lot of people barely even remember it.
When wielding a wurmslayer on my warrior on live it was common for me to be out of stamina before a single mob was dead, and no stamina meant slower movement speed, and a you would miss 50% of the time when you didn't have stamina. I always loved having shamans in my group because Acumen was a godsend to deal with this.
I like food and water that borders on survival, you shouldn't die for not having it, but it should drastically diminish your fighting capabilities.
fazool said:If folks want immersion and want to feel like the world is "real" why complain about coin weight? Do you carry $10,000 in nickels in your pockets in real life ?!?
In real life you wouldn't carry coins at all you'd carry notes and yes you can carry $10,000 in notes quite easily.
@fazool If you don't mind the pedantic tone:
You are confusing "Real" and "Verisimilar", or wrongly termed "realistic"
- "Real" is just that. As accurate a representation of our human, proper reality, as technologically possible. Not what fantasy RPGs are about :)
- "Verisimilar", the one most coin with realistic, is the achieving of creating a fantastical universe where things make sense, have actions and reactions, rules and some superficial logic behind them. Substance. It's why it is often confused with/as 'realistic'. Except realistic denotes connotations we would be familiar with, it points to the real. Key difference in verisimilar being that things only need make sense within said universe, not in our own as well. That is what RPGs are about. MMO or single player ones.
I don't want 'real', to quote you. I got that already :)
I am totally for eating and drinking to not die! or at the very least if you run out of food and water you cant regen hp/mana respectively. for coin weight i think that coins should have weight, but also that there should be at some point the ability to aquire a coin purse that has 100% WR and can only fit coins. maybe a long quest for the banker's union? or maybe when your bank account gets to a cirtain point you can goto the bank and purchase a magical debit card for 10000gold? i read lots of Xianxia Novels and many of those use this idea because its annoying to carry around 10 million gold coins. or maybe when the population starts using bigger amounts of cash the bankers can just bring out larger curreny? or make curreny go up exponentially? many ways to deal with coin weight without just making coins not have weight.
Gawd said:I am totally for eating and drinking to not die! or at the very least if you run out of food and water you cant regen hp/mana respectively. for coin weight i think that coins should have weight, but also that there should be at some point the ability to aquire a coin purse that has 100% WR and can only fit coins. maybe a long quest for the banker's union? or maybe when your bank account gets to a cirtain point you can goto the bank and purchase a magical debit card for 10000gold? i read lots of Xianxia Novels and many of those use this idea because its annoying to carry around 10 million gold coins. or maybe when the population starts using bigger amounts of cash the bankers can just bring out larger curreny? or make curreny go up exponentially? many ways to deal with coin weight without just making coins not have weight.
My question is why do they always have to be coins in MMORPGs? Why not notes? Coin weight is such a lazy game mechanism. It is just there to punish you for no benefit in-game. No one in their right mind would carry £1,000 in coins in the real world, they'd use notes and that makes absolute sense because it is lighter and easier to handle. I think something similar should be done in-game.
I'm fine with the whole you need to eat and drink thing to stay alive that makes sense. But the coin weight thing just doesn't do anything for me. I know EQ had coin weight and I remember it. I also remember selling a particularly expensive item and not being able to move. That didn't increase my enjoyment of the game in the slightest.
When building a game I think you should only add things to the game that actually add fun. Yes they can be extremely hard things but as long as they add fun or immersion then that is absolutely fine. But coin weight adds neither fun nor immersion. As I said in the real life you'd carry notes so the whole argument that coin weight is more realistic is moot because no one carries around coins in real life and if they do they might carry about a couple of quid.
Oh for everyone who thinks that paper money didn't exist in medieval times think again. The first paper money was used by the Chinese some time between 618AD and 907AD.
xtnpd said:I think the food and water requirement adds a whole next level to crafting. If player cooking exists, and we can "harvest" materials from dead enemies (in a way that makes sense, of course), then please, by all means make food and water part of the experience.
I certainly agree with this. Food and water could add a whole new depth to the game with the possibilities of crafting special food and drink based on who you have killed. That would be pretty cool. You could even "steal" special powers from the corpse of a dead enemy. Say an enemy could see invis you could make some food that granted you the ability to see invis if you used ingredients from that corpse.
Cromulent said:Gawd said:I am totally for eating and drinking to not die! or at the very least if you run out of food and water you cant regen hp/mana respectively. for coin weight i think that coins should have weight, but also that there should be at some point the ability to aquire a coin purse that has 100% WR and can only fit coins. maybe a long quest for the banker's union? or maybe when your bank account gets to a cirtain point you can goto the bank and purchase a magical debit card for 10000gold? i read lots of Xianxia Novels and many of those use this idea because its annoying to carry around 10 million gold coins. or maybe when the population starts using bigger amounts of cash the bankers can just bring out larger curreny? or make curreny go up exponentially? many ways to deal with coin weight without just making coins not have weight.
My question is why do they always have to be coins in MMORPGs? Why not notes? Coin weight is such a lazy game mechanism. It is just there to punish you for no benefit in-game. No one in their right mind would carry £1,000 in coins in the real world, they'd use notes and that makes absolute sense because it is lighter and easier to handle. I think something similar should be done in-game.
I'm fine with the whole you need to eat and drink thing to stay alive that makes sense. But the coin weight thing just doesn't do anything for me. I know EQ had coin weight and I remember it. I also remember selling a particularly expensive item and not being able to move. That didn't increase my enjoyment of the game in the slightest.
When building a game I think you should only add things to the game that actually add fun. Yes they can be extremely hard things but as long as they add fun or immersion then that is absolutely fine. But coin weight adds neither fun nor immersion. As I said in the real life you'd carry notes so the whole argument that coin weight is more realistic is moot because no one carries around coins in real life and if they do they might carry about a couple of quid.
Oh for everyone who thinks that paper money didn't exist in medieval times think again. The first paper money was used by the Chinese some time between 618AD and 907AD.
the problem with paper money is that there needs to be a guaranteur for it, someone dependable to say this bill represents x amount of (precious thing X) if we use a kingdom as the guaranteur then we would have at least 3 different currency in pantheon, if we use the bankers guild (does anyone trust bankers?) i guess that the paper money would be doable, but paper still has weight if you are lugging around one million dollars in 100 dollar bills its still 20lbs. while a million dollars in gold is 55lbs. while in platinum is just over 40lbs. but the space required to store the amounts is extremely exponentially smaller than the large duffelbag you would need for notes. besides using precious metals for trading is part of the fantasy mistique. also bills are fragile, extremely fragile. tho it would be a good way to get currency out of circulation if you get hit by the dragon's breath and all your bills are incinerated.
Gawd said:Cromulent said:Gawd said:I am totally for eating and drinking to not die! or at the very least if you run out of food and water you cant regen hp/mana respectively. for coin weight i think that coins should have weight, but also that there should be at some point the ability to aquire a coin purse that has 100% WR and can only fit coins. maybe a long quest for the banker's union? or maybe when your bank account gets to a cirtain point you can goto the bank and purchase a magical debit card for 10000gold? i read lots of Xianxia Novels and many of those use this idea because its annoying to carry around 10 million gold coins. or maybe when the population starts using bigger amounts of cash the bankers can just bring out larger curreny? or make curreny go up exponentially? many ways to deal with coin weight without just making coins not have weight.
My question is why do they always have to be coins in MMORPGs? Why not notes? Coin weight is such a lazy game mechanism. It is just there to punish you for no benefit in-game. No one in their right mind would carry £1,000 in coins in the real world, they'd use notes and that makes absolute sense because it is lighter and easier to handle. I think something similar should be done in-game.
I'm fine with the whole you need to eat and drink thing to stay alive that makes sense. But the coin weight thing just doesn't do anything for me. I know EQ had coin weight and I remember it. I also remember selling a particularly expensive item and not being able to move. That didn't increase my enjoyment of the game in the slightest.
When building a game I think you should only add things to the game that actually add fun. Yes they can be extremely hard things but as long as they add fun or immersion then that is absolutely fine. But coin weight adds neither fun nor immersion. As I said in the real life you'd carry notes so the whole argument that coin weight is more realistic is moot because no one carries around coins in real life and if they do they might carry about a couple of quid.
Oh for everyone who thinks that paper money didn't exist in medieval times think again. The first paper money was used by the Chinese some time between 618AD and 907AD.
the problem with paper money is that there needs to be a guaranteur for it, someone dependable to say this bill represents x amount of (precious thing X) if we use a kingdom as the guaranteur then we would have at least 3 different currency in pantheon, if we use the bankers guild (does anyone trust bankers?) i guess that the paper money would be doable, but paper still has weight if you are lugging around one million dollars in 100 dollar bills its still 20lbs. while a million dollars in gold is 55lbs. while in platinum is just over 40lbs. but the space required to store the amounts is extremely exponentially smaller than the large duffelbag you would need for notes. besides using precious metals for trading is part of the fantasy mistique. also bills are fragile, extremely fragile. tho it would be a good way to get currency out of circulation if you get hit by the dragon's breath and all your bills are incinerated.
I understand what you are saying and I respect your opinion. I just don't think it adds any enjoyment to the game. Lets take some features that we probably all agree on. Most of us do not want to see a map system in Pantheon and if there is one it should be as minimal as possible. This adds fun because you get to explore and learn the world around you without it being ruined ahead of time by an ultra detailed map.
But what does coin weight actually add to the game? I mean really? A bit of inconvience is all I can think about. Also if you ever played a Monk in EQ then you'll know that money was the bane of your life. You'd end up destroying it so you didn't weigh down your character too much. I mean how realistic is that? Who in their right mind would actually destroy money (apart from the fact that it is actually illegal in real life in some countries) just because it weighed a few extra pounds?
Even if it got ridiculously heavy you'd drag it to a bank in a big sack. No one I know ever says "oh I've got a few extra coins in my pocket I better throw them away". You might spend them on something frivolous but then you'd need to lug that thing around with you as well.
Cromulent said:Niien said:Cromulent said:Niien said:Food, water, and money weight :) I'm all for it.
To be honest I could do without money having weight.
What about weapons and armor and other loot?
Now you're just being silly. Money weight doesn't add anything apart from getting stuck unable to move because you sold something and forgot to add up the exact total weight of the money that you sold the item for.
Making the game difficult because it adds fun to the game is great. Making things difficult because it is a pain in the **** is just boring and annoying.
I really don't see money weight adding any enjoyment to the game. It is just annoying.
I disagree.
Who needs to walk around with their entire wealth on them..? If you need a heavy exchange, people meet at the bank. The weight mechaic is awsome and solid... a bit troubling if you forget, or don't provide for added weight. Just means you will need to find a magic purse as your first priority if you are a heavy baller.
Hieromonk said:Cromulent said:Niien said:Cromulent said:Niien said:Food, water, and money weight :) I'm all for it.
To be honest I could do without money having weight.
What about weapons and armor and other loot?
Now you're just being silly. Money weight doesn't add anything apart from getting stuck unable to move because you sold something and forgot to add up the exact total weight of the money that you sold the item for.
Making the game difficult because it adds fun to the game is great. Making things difficult because it is a pain in the **** is just boring and annoying.
I really don't see money weight adding any enjoyment to the game. It is just annoying.
I disagree.
Who needs to walk around with their entire wealth on them..? If you need a heavy exchange, people meet at the bank. The weight mechaic is awsome and solid... a bit troubling if you forget, or don't provide for added weight. Just means you will need to find a magic purse as your first priority if you are a heavy baller.
You think coin weight is "awesome"? Really? Either you are very easily pleased or you use the word "awesome" when you really mean "quite good".
I wouldn't be too upset if they did add coin weight but I'd still consider it inconvenient and not really adding anything to the game. I guess if you think coin weight is "awesome" though you obviously have different opinions of what makes a good game.
Gadgets said:+1 for the awesomness that is coin weight
I suppose if they made a litre of water weigh 1Kg like it does in real life that would be "awesome" as well? That way you'd only be able to carry small amounts of water and would have to constantly run back to a merchant to get more. Sounds pretty "awesome" to me.
My only issue with food/water in the early EQ days was the consumption rate. I was spend a large sum of my spoils on replentishing my food/water in those first few levels, while I learned the game.
I don't think I broke 100pp til well into my 20's maybe early 30's. I was not a greey player, so I always passed decent items onto friends and guild members, almost never sold anything I looted until I couldn't find someone to give it to, even then I often hit lowbie zones and found someone who needed it.
It came back to bite me later when I needed upgrades and inflation had taken prices so high, I couldn't loot as fast as prices rose.
Cromulent said:Gadgets said:+1 for the awesomness that is coin weight
I suppose if they made a litre of water weigh 1Kg like it does in real life that would be "awesome" as well? That way you'd only be able to carry small amounts of water and would have to constantly run back to a merchant to get more. Sounds pretty "awesome" to me.
I demand nothing but utmost realism from my elf sim.
Wait, is that a dragon!?
Cromulent said:Gadgets said:+1 for the awesomness that is coin weight
I suppose if they made a litre of water weigh 1Kg like it does in real life that would be "awesome" as well? That way you'd only be able to carry small amounts of water and would have to constantly run back to a merchant to get more. Sounds pretty "awesome" to me.
I never said anything about every item should have a realistic weight factor. I feel that there is a more social dynamic to currency/trade than there is with water and other more mundane items. Giving coin carrying restraints and limitations contributes to that dynamic.
Gadgets said:Cromulent said:Gadgets said:+1 for the awesomness that is coin weight
I suppose if they made a litre of water weigh 1Kg like it does in real life that would be "awesome" as well? That way you'd only be able to carry small amounts of water and would have to constantly run back to a merchant to get more. Sounds pretty "awesome" to me.
I never said anything about every item should have a realistic weight factor. I feel that there is a more social dynamic to currency/trade than there is with water and other more mundane items. Giving coin carrying restraints and limitations contributes to that dynamic.
Despite the fact that I can't think of a single social dynamic that requires coins to have weight other than having to do high value transactions standing next to a banker so you don't get stuck I'm going to bow out of this conversation. It is obvious I am in the minority here when it comes to coin weight.
I won't complain if they put coin weight in the game but I will feel like it is a rather pointless feature. Been there and done it in EQ. Didn't add anything of value to the game for me. And it certainly didn't add anything to the social aspect of the game despite what you seem to be claiming.
I wouldnt mind some sort of "fatigue" thing that increased slowly and sped up during combat or other activities. A flat timer or anything too frequent would just feel like a shoehorned punishment added just for the sake of adding it. It needs to make sense, as well as be fun and not too distracting. Not just "5 hours have passed in the game world, youre starving." Honestly id just prefer the typical health recovery, +temporary buffs thing. Removing automatic 10 second out of combat health/mana recovery (unless you eat/drink) would still serve the same purpose.
I think someone mentioned this a few posts up, but I'll put my spin on it. Say when you're out adventuring, the money you get from adventuring and killing mobs comes in coinage. Coinage has weight, You could then take that coinage to a local bank and trade it in for promisary notes which have no weight, but could only be used regionally when dealing with NPC's. Then say you travel to another region with these promisary notes and can't use those notes in that region unless you went to a local bank and exchanged those notes with the regional notes, but at a cost. This may only make sense if bank inventory is not shared across multiple banks/regions. what do you think? Too complicated? On the subject of food and water, they should be neccessary for stamina/health and mana regeneration. Give everyone a forage skill and make some rare forageable items that can be used in crafting as well.
I am all for food/drink requirements that comes with penalties when you run out. As far as coin weight goes... How bout RNG chance you drop coin or items if you are carrying over a certain amount of weight? As well as just generally slowing down movement. It would be funny for people to hang around the deep pockets waiting for them to drop some coin =).
Sure it was a pain in the rear at times, but one of my favorite memories of everquest was hauling 3250 gold coins to Hasten Bootstrutter on my weakass wizard. Along the way a friendly Shaman buffed me with strenght. To me it's those kind of memories that make these kind of features worth it. I don't ever recall any kind of memory like that in WoW.
@ Cromulent continuing from the quotes but omitted to quote them because the posts would just get too darned long...
i just believe that coins should have weight because everything has weight, should it be realistic weight? not really Neccesary IMHO just needs to have some weight. Food water and gear should also have weight. and characters should move slower if they are carrying more weight than they can bear. IN EQ i had played a monk for quite a bit, usually i had no problems getting another group member to hold my cash split when it became too overbearing. (although i am totally agianst an eq monklike penalty for any class on weight. if a character's strength can support 500lbs then they should be able to hold 500lbs before any penalty to thier movement or stats) it is inconvenient but in any world there is inconvenience, and VR is building a world. if we start getting rid of things because they are inconvenient we would have a game, and not even a really fun game. could you imagine playing chutes and ladders with just ladders? if you take away the inconvenient chutes lots of the fun of the game is lost. sometimes inconvenince can be a spice that livens things.
Also banks will be a thing. no reason to carry every coin at your disposal on you at all times, just enough to take care of the necessities. if coins have weight and weight is restricted somewhat then it gives players a reason to actually put coins in the bank.
Gawd said:@ Cromulent continuing from the quotes but omitted to quote them because the posts would just get too darned long...
i just believe that coins should have weight because everything has weight, should it be realistic weight? not really Neccesary IMHO just needs to have some weight. Food water and gear should also have weight. and characters should move slower if they are carrying more weight than they can bear. IN EQ i had played a monk for quite a bit, usually i had no problems getting another group member to hold my cash split when it became too overbearing. (although i am totally agianst an eq monklike penalty for any class on weight. if a character's strength can support 500lbs then they should be able to hold 500lbs before any penalty to thier movement or stats) it is inconvenient but in any world there is inconvenience, and VR is building a world. if we start getting rid of things because they are inconvenient we would have a game, and not even a really fun game. could you imagine playing chutes and ladders with just ladders? if you take away the inconvenient chutes lots of the fun of the game is lost. sometimes inconvenince can be a spice that livens things.
Also banks will be a thing. no reason to carry every coin at your disposal on you at all times, just enough to take care of the necessities. if coins have weight and weight is restricted somewhat then it gives players a reason to actually put coins in the bank.
Oh I totally agree that loot, food and water should have weight and that characters who are carrying too much should be slowed down and eventually stopped if they carry even more. I'm just a wary of coin weight. I just don't see it adding anything to the game.
But as I said in my previous post I'm bowing out of this conversation. It is clear I am in the minority and that is OK. If the community want coin weight then I'm sure the developers will give them coin weight. I won't complain if coin weight is put into the game I just don't see it adding anything to the game but that is just my opinion.
Cromulent said:Gadgets said:Cromulent said:Gadgets said:+1 for the awesomness that is coin weight
I suppose if they made a litre of water weigh 1Kg like it does in real life that would be "awesome" as well? That way you'd only be able to carry small amounts of water and would have to constantly run back to a merchant to get more. Sounds pretty "awesome" to me.
I never said anything about every item should have a realistic weight factor. I feel that there is a more social dynamic to currency/trade than there is with water and other more mundane items. Giving coin carrying restraints and limitations contributes to that dynamic.
Despite the fact that I can't think of a single social dynamic that requires coins to have weight other than having to do high value transactions standing next to a banker so you don't get stuck I'm going to bow out of this conversation. It is obvious I am in the minority here when it comes to coin weight.
I won't complain if they put coin weight in the game but I will feel like it is a rather pointless feature. Been there and done it in EQ. Didn't add anything of value to the game for me. And it certainly didn't add anything to the social aspect of the game despite what you seem to be claiming.
I think you are missing the point... Coin weight means people have to actually interact with eachother. When you are out adventuring and want to trade up to larger coins for the convenience then you will need to work with other players. The problem with modern MMO's is they tried to make EVERYTHING convenient for the player which results in the majority playing solo and never needing to communicate. The Auction Houses are just another example of taking away meaningful player social interaction.