First and foremost I quite liked the quest system in EverQuest but I think it could be improved on. Take for instance Morrowind which was obviously a single player RPG but I think it had quite a nice system when it came to a quest log. It basically just had a book that put the relevant quest text into it and left you to look through it to decide what to do next. It was a nice way to store all of your quest objectives without making the whole system too easy and reduced the amount of hand holding the game provided.
Some games have a ridiculously complete quest log which basically tells you how to complete every single quest you get. I want Pantheon to avoid that and to make the player figure out how to complete the quests in their quest log.
Another thing I'd like to see is the ability to log quest text and responses to a text log file so you can post the quest text to say your guild forum so guilds can work out how to complete particularly long or epic quests together. Having it in a log file would make the process so much easier and would mean that you wouldn't need to take screenshots of quest text.
I do like quest logs. In early EQ and RPG's of the day I would have to use a notebook outside the game. I would write down who the NPC was, where he/she was, the quest text and if vague what I think he/she meant or where I thought I was supposed to go.
I would like to see a quest log where it list basic information. NPC Name, Location, Quest Dialogue but unless the NPC specifically says "I need the item of advanced dragon slaying" I don't want the objective field to be populated.
To go along with this, I don't want to see an item description on a wolves hide that says "This can be used in a quest" or a "Quest Item" tag unless I already have the quest for it and talked to the actual NPC that wants it.
I was thinking it would be great if an MMO had its own personal quest log like Baldurs Gate had. The actual quest's log was something simple like 'So and so asked me to recover such item. It was stolen by ogres, east of that place.' Thats all. Youd then be responsible for looking around, finding the Ogres yourself and (probably the best part) you can actually keep the item for yourself. IIRC it was cursed, you couldnt remove it, and it changed your characters gender but still awesome!
Then there was another personal log where the player can just write in his own notes, locations, passwords, etc. The internet has kind of ruined such epic questing but for those of us who choose not to cheat (!!!) it would be much more engaging and immersive. It could even be saved locally, no need to save personal notes on the server.
Kayo said:I was thinking it would be great if an MMO had its own personal quest log like Baldurs Gate had. The actual quest's log was something simple like 'So and so asked me to recover such item. It was stolen by ogres, east of that place.' Thats all. Youd then be responsible for looking around, finding the Ogres yourself and (probably the best part) you can actually keep the item for yourself. IIRC it was cursed, you couldnt remove it, and it changed your characters gender but still awesome!
Then there was another personal log where the player can just write in his own notes, locations, passwords, etc. The internet has kind of ruined such epic questing but for those of us who choose not to cheat (!!!) it would be much more engaging and immersive. It could even be saved locally, no need to save personal notes on the server.
I don't think it is cheating if you work with other guild members to solve a particularly hard quest. In fact I'd go a step further and require players to work with guild members or other players to complete quests. I'm not sure how to do that maybe require a different race or class to complete a certain part of the quest or to see one of the steps in quest dialogue. I mean after all one of the tenents of this game is to make a more social game. What better way than to force people to work together to complete quests?
I like the idea of a log to review quest text without scrolling up the chat window. Also I would go one step further that when you do find the item for a quest it will let you know you found an item to track progress. I'm not saying tell me where to go but if it calls for an item and you go out looking for that item, it could say you have that item or found the item once looted.
OR Have a NPC that can investigate items and update quests if this is not done automatically on looting items.
Aich said:I like the idea of a log to review quest text without scrolling up the chat window. Also I would go one step further that when you do find the item for a quest it will let you know you found an item to track progress. I'm not saying tell me where to go but if it calls for an item and you go out looking for that item, it could say you have that item or found the item once looted.
OR Have a NPC that can investigate items and update quests if this is not done automatically on looting items.
How about having other players cast an identify spell on the item like in EQ? That way the quest log would update but some classes would need to get help from others. Of course there could be an all race / all class quest in the game for a clicky identify item to help people out who managed to do the quest.
Cromulent said:I don't think it is cheating if you work with other guild members to solve a particularly hard quest. In fact I'd go a step further and require players to work with guild members or other players to complete quests. I'm not sure how to do that maybe require a different race or class to complete a certain part of the quest or to see one of the steps in quest dialogue. I mean after all one of the tenents of this game is to make a more social game. What better way than to force people to work together to complete quests?
I was talking about databases that have sprung up since around 2000. Its trivialized questing to the point that developers may as well have added all the easy quest pointers and sparkly objective we have now. Why not? If players can just type in a quest name in search and get the exact coordinates for their objective... may as well just put it in game.
I even do it myself. Though I try to only search when im about to puch a hole in my monitor. Lets face it... sometimes you read every single piece of text and clue you can find in game, search every nook and cranny, but either the developers made a mistake and its no where near where it suggested, or worse, the quest is bugged.
I would prefer no quest log at all. I like paying attention to what npc’s are saying and writing down things that I think are important. It prevents the constant clicking through quest dialogs and hitting ‘accept’ without even realizing what you are accepting.
I may be in the minority here, and I realize that there probably will be some sort of quest log in place since that’s what everyone is used to nowadays. If so, I just hope it’s very basic and doesn’t let you re-read through everything the quest-giver said.
In EQ there wasn’t any accepting or declining quests. You just talked to an npc and they told you what they wanted and that was that. You either made note of it in a notebook somewhere, or you just ignored it and moved on. Or if you already knew what an npc wanted beforehand, you could get the quest items ahead of time and just hand them the items and they gave you the reward. You didn’t even need to talk to them about the quest first. If Pantheon handles their quests like this, how would a quest log even work?
I also don’t like items being marked as a quest item, especially when the game prevents you from selling it or destroying it simply because it’s the almighty, indestructible quest item. People should be paying attention to what items they need and what they need to do with them. If you accidentally get rid of a quest item that you needed because you didn’t know what it was… oh well, too bad for you. Go do it over again. : ) Stuff like this also lets people complete quests totally on accident. This happened to me quite a bit in WoW. I would end up talking to some npc and it turns out I just completed some quest I didn’t even know I had because I just clicked through and accepted his quest, or the quest was shared by another player, and I never realized it.
Cromulent said:Aich said:I like the idea of a log to review quest text without scrolling up the chat window. Also I would go one step further that when you do find the item for a quest it will let you know you found an item to track progress. I'm not saying tell me where to go but if it calls for an item and you go out looking for that item, it could say you have that item or found the item once looted.
OR Have a NPC that can investigate items and update quests if this is not done automatically on looting items.
How about having other players cast an identify spell on the item like in EQ? That way the quest log would update but some classes would need to get help from others. Of course there could be an all race / all class quest in the game for a clicky identify item to help people out who managed to do the quest.
Well that would require them having the obj and woun't work on no drop items. Easiest way is the autoloot update. The Identity spell or npc merchant could identity items that dont update a current quest and could lead to clues about finding the quest that it is for.
Example, looted bone chip updates quest collect 10 bone chips for this witch.
Identity spell on a bone chip could yield basic information about it and say this item has several uses etc because it is a common drop.
Say a rare drop quest online item, cursed demon gem, you dont have the quest for and have no idea what it is for the identiy spell yeilds some details about it item but also can provide a few clues for the player to go searching for the quest starter.
Food for thought.
Aich said:Also I would go one step further that when you do find the item for a quest it will let you know you found an item to track progress. I'm not saying tell me where to go but if it calls for an item and you go out looking for that item, it could say you have that item or found the item once looted.
OR Have a NPC that can investigate items and update quests if this is not done automatically on looting items.
Aren't you losing some level of excitement if this automated quest log just ticks the items off the list? Isn't it more interesting if you, at some point in a quest, must make a guess to see if the item you have might be the right one? You've got to hand it and a few other items to an NPC and you know if any of them is wrong you lose the items and have to start over. Won't you miss that tension? That tremble in your hand as you hover your finger over the 'Give' button? You re-read your notes, you double and triple check everything and then you get that sound of success! You're very excited, very happy and ready to go to the next step.
Give me that possibility for failure because the successes will be that much sweeter.
Vandraad said:Aren't you losing some level of excitement if this automated quest log just ticks the items off the list? Isn't it more interesting if you, at some point in a quest, must make a guess to see if the item you have might be the right one? You've got to hand it and a few other items to an NPC and you know if any of them is wrong you lose the items and have to start over. Won't you miss that tension? That tremble in your hand as you hover your finger over the 'Give' button? You re-read your notes, you double and triple check everything and then you get that sound of success! You're very excited, very happy and ready to go to the next step.
Give me that possibility for failure because the successes will be that much sweeter.
Maybe when I was younger. I am an adult now with a job. I camped Raster in Lguk for months, waking up on server patch days to try and catch him. I can't do that anymore. Nowadays if I lost that on a random turn in, I might do something like fling my pc put of the window, proceeding to fill it full of 9mm rounds, then get arrested for discharging a weapon in the city limits. I'll have to tell the judge it was because of failed quest turn in. Great news headline there. lmao
I think to help not make this game as harse as EQ so it will get more appeal. Plus I don;t see the hurt in letting someone know they found an item for a quest they are working on. I don't mind looking for months for an item but once I have it I don't want to lose it for something as silly as a turn in check/lag, when it can be checked before hand. This is what creates trolls and angry players.
I'm also for turn in's not saying its magical tick'off either, maybe a entry as to maybe you found something. Lore/roleplay wise its your character examining loot as they pick it up, instead of insta spawn in your bags. Gathering your people for a turn in like I did for my monk epic 1.0 back in the day was awesom.
Even in LOTR, Gandalf did an 'identity' test on the ring to see if it was what he was thinking(threw it in the fire). That can be npc bases/spell or autotrigger on loot.
Liav said:Vandraad said:Give me that possibility for failure because the successes will be that much sweeter.
This is the exact reason why every single Korean MMO port turns out to be garbage.
I'm not being mean, it's just a fact. I would crucify RNGesus if I met him.
The korean MMOs go overboard with their failure rates, true.
Vandraad said:Aich said:Also I would go one step further that when you do find the item for a quest it will let you know you found an item to track progress. I'm not saying tell me where to go but if it calls for an item and you go out looking for that item, it could say you have that item or found the item once looted.
OR Have a NPC that can investigate items and update quests if this is not done automatically on looting items.
Aren't you losing some level of excitement if this automated quest log just ticks the items off the list? Isn't it more interesting if you, at some point in a quest, must make a guess to see if the item you have might be the right one? You've got to hand it and a few other items to an NPC and you know if any of them is wrong you lose the items and have to start over. Won't you miss that tension? That tremble in your hand as you hover your finger over the 'Give' button? You re-read your notes, you double and triple check everything and then you get that sound of success! You're very excited, very happy and ready to go to the next step.
Give me that possibility for failure because the successes will be that much sweeter.
I just think that is a bad way to do things. It is artificial difficulty and frustration and really makes no sense. Why would giving items in a wrong order or something they dont want to someone in real life just suddenly make the items disappear or them refuse to give it back to you? Ignoring assholes of course that wouldn't give them back.
Any sense of accomplishment should come from the process of getting the items, not wether you gave Bob the Fish Merchant tuna before you gave him flounder.
Im fine with obscuring exactly what Bob wants and not having it automatically tick off items in your log, but the idea of losing the items is really just not a good idea as it is just artificial difficulty and frustration for the sake of difficulty and frustration. Again, make the tension, difficulty, and frustration come from the process of getting the items And not knowing for sure if you are getting the right items.
A lot of the problem with early EQ and turning in items in the proper order was due to code back then. Now adays devs know how to code to know that the items can be traded in any order so I dont see this being an issue.
As far as quest logs keeping auto count of your inventory I am split on it. I really could go either way but feel that when Aich stated "Plus I don't see the hurt in letting someone know they found an item for a quest they are working on." he started on a slippery slope that ends in the game being called a WoW Clone...
I personally like the idea of having in game means of taking notes. It makes it less game guided and forces the player to "think" (woah)!
Off topic but it would be cool if there was no developer made map. Instead a tool in game for players to map things themselves. Heck, maybe even a way to share each other's work?
I remember having binders of notes, guides, maps etc. for Everquest. Navigating things while looking at a piece of paper and sometimes guessing accordingly.
Sorry for going off topic but it came to mind.
-Warlored
Warlored said:I personally like the idea of having in game means of taking notes. It makes it less game guided and forces the player to "think" (woah)!
Off topic but it would be cool if there was no developer made map. Instead a tool in game for players to map things themselves. Heck, maybe even a way to share each other's work?
I remember having binders of notes, guides, maps etc. for Everquest. Navigating things while looking at a piece of paper and sometimes guessing accordingly.
Sorry for going off topic but it came to mind.
-Warlored
If the developers went the route of no traditional quest log, having the ability to select nPC text and right click 'Add to log book' would be a good feature. And trading notes would also be a nice feature to have as well. My writing hand in real life is messed up from spinal damage and writing my own notes is difficult.
As far as maps, I'd be fine with a slightly abstract map being available in game with no gps and it could be be drawn on in game. Players could then make more detailed maps. And while we are on the subject, please give us a compass. It isn't like it is an unrealistic feature to have a compass. I say this because I know someone will argue for no compass. :-\
Kromiv said:If Pantheon handles their quests like this, how would a quest log even work?
Bethesda games work like that (Skyrim, Fallout) those have quest logs. Granted, those games dont have any "Kill 0/10 boars" kind of quests but I ive definitely 'finished' quests there before I even met the NPC.
How about a compromise between the two types of players?
Players start off with a very very basic quest journal that basically gives ultra vague suggestions for the quest. Kinda like "I heard a froglok in the west had this item". But that there was a maasive epic quest that was split into levels or tiers and each tier was an epic quest in itself and added more functionality to your quest journal with the highest tier giving all the features of a modern MMO quest journal?
This quest could be designed to take months to complete so only the most dedicated questers ever got it.
I would personally vote for no detailed map, play by play quest log, and no gps/compass.
I would however vote for a general map after you discover/map the area in character. The map should be able to accept notes or points of interest meaning I could click the map and add a poi.
Also would vote for a quest log I could type notes in.
Niien said:I would personally vote for no detailed map, play by play quest log, and no gps/compass.
I would however vote for a general map after you discover/map the area in character. The map should be able to accept notes or points of interest meaning I could click the map and add a poi.
Also would vote for a quest log I could type notes in.
I don't see any reason for there to not be a compass.
However, a topographical map is something I'd really like to see, with the ability to add/share custom waypoints. That would be amazing.
As for the quest logs, depends on how they are implemented. Detailed, no. A way to track information you've already been given? Sure.
Liav said:Niien said:I would personally vote for no detailed map, play by play quest log, and no gps/compass.
I would however vote for a general map after you discover/map the area in character. The map should be able to accept notes or points of interest meaning I could click the map and add a poi.
Also would vote for a quest log I could type notes in.
I don't see any reason for there to not be a compass.
In all honestly it's just personal preference. My reasoning would be that I feel like when I'm given a tool such as a detailed map or compass... I'm looking more at those tools and relying on them more than I am at the land. However when I don't have those tools I rely on remembering the land and being able to navigate with out either of them. I would just rather the second option over the first for my personal preference.
Niien said:Liav said:Niien said:I would personally vote for no detailed map, play by play quest log, and no gps/compass.
I would however vote for a general map after you discover/map the area in character. The map should be able to accept notes or points of interest meaning I could click the map and add a poi.
Also would vote for a quest log I could type notes in.
I don't see any reason for there to not be a compass.
In all honestly it's just personal preference. My reasoning would be that I feel like when I'm given a tool such as a detailed map or compass... I'm looking more at those tools and relying on them more than I am at the land. However when I don't have those tools I rely on remembering the land and being able to navigate with out either of them. I would just rather the second option over the first for my personal preference.
If anything, I'd say a compass would compliment remembering the lay of the land. I agree with you on a map, but I see a compass as a complimentary tool used to just give a label to direction. You would still require the ability to remember land marks and terrain features if you had a compass.
When I was in the Boy Scouts, the Scout Masters would often take us somewhere away from camp and just give us a topological map and compass and told us to find our way back to camp. Even with those tools, it still required skills to determine where you are and where you are going.
My .02
I think Niian s talking about a arrow that points to where the quest is where as Bluefyre is talking about a N S E W compass. Compass is esential I think and is not tied to the quest system. Even with meeting up with people, one might say, yeah we are north of soandso place. etc etc
Aich said:I think Niian s talking about a arrow that points to where the quest is where as Bluefyre is talking about a N S E W compass. Compass is esential I think and is not tied to the quest system. Even with meeting up with people, one might say, yeah we are north of soandso place. etc etc
Yeah a compass is pretty important. I'm bad enough at getting lost as it is. Without a compass I'd find it basically impossible to navigate the world unless there was a skill like Sense Heading in EQ although even that was hard to use since you had to level it up with your character.
Nope this is one area where I think making things a little bit easier is a good idea. Having a compass would solve that problem nicely.