techdude86 said:I think this kind of stuff starts out this way and ends up making things too easy , and ---- next thing ya know- "what we have here is ....." Easymode!
It starts out what way?
I agree that the teleporting to group/guild/whatever kind of stuff is really stupid and trivializes transportation. I don't think the LFG window with the features I suggested can reasonably be said to be "easy mode". Just not sure what you're referring to here.
Liav said:techdude86 said:I think this kind of stuff starts out this way and ends up making things too easy , and ---- next thing ya know- "what we have here is ....." Easymode!
It starts out what way?
I agree that the teleporting to group/guild/whatever kind of stuff is really stupid and trivializes transportation. I don't think the LFG window with the features I suggested can reasonably be said to be "easy mode". Just not sure what you're referring to here.
most likely he is referring to something like starting with this type of lfg tool, then the masses come into the game and after all the complaining and such they get the devs to put in a autogroup function, then after that they get a port function put in, and it just keeps degrading until pantheon becomes a clone of the other 50 million games that are catering to the instant gratification crowd... the so-called slippery slope into the abyss of mediocrity.
and i agree this could happen if the developers do not stick to thier guns and stay true to the thought of making this game for themselves and other likeminded people. I do not think that this will happen though, as this crew seems more like a bunch of skillful gamers creating a game rather than a group of businessmen trying to pull a quick buck. and i think that they understand that if they stay true to the niche they are trying to carve then this game could have a very long and fruitful run, making more money over time than the quick burst of cash that games like archeage brought in.
Gawd said:
most likely he is referring to something like starting with this type of lfg tool, then the masses come into the game and after all the complaining and such they get the devs to put in a autogroup function, then after that they get a port function put in, and it just keeps degrading until pantheon becomes a clone of the other 50 million games that are catering to the instant gratification crowd... the so-called slippery slope into the abyss of mediocrity.
and i agree this could happen if the developers do not stick to thier guns and stay true to the thought of making this game for themselves and other likeminded people. I do not think that this will happen though, as this crew seems more like a bunch of skillful gamers creating a game rather than a group of businessmen trying to pull a quick buck. and i think that they understand that if they stay true to the niche they are trying to carve then this game could have a very long and fruitful run, making more money over time than the quick burst of cash that games like archeage brought in.
I agree and to be honest I've been saying the same for years. I love the fact that they have tenets.. (without those I probably wouldn't be here/trust VR). I just hope they manage to stick to them and aren't persuaded by the allure of money from the "casual/anti-social" crowd... which to be fair.. seems very easy todo nowadays. They pile on the pressure.. purely because there are so many of them and they make the game conform to there game/lifestyle with no regard to people who are actually invested in the game. It then becomes a self-centric game and for me as an "old schoolie" social mmo'er.. they feel shallow/weak.. and devoid of player life. Sure you see people playing... but they aren't play together.. just "solo" online. I don't get the mentality of creating a MMO designed specifically as a solo player game. Bonkers. Logic does not compute. Error: divisible by Zero. Syntax Error, expected common sense. 404 common sense not found. *Brain bluescreens*
I really don't think Pantheon is at risk of any of that, tbh. It's worth noting but something like a simple LFG tool is completely far removed from making the game any "easier". Why does every thread have to derail into how much we hate modern games? I think we get the idea by now, lol.
Liav said:I really don't think Pantheon is at risk of any of that, tbh. It's worth noting but something like a simple LFG tool is completely far removed from making the game any "easier". Why does every thread have to derail into how much we hate modern games? I think we get the idea by now, lol.
Yeah I derailed. Can't help it. :)
Modern mmos have really ruined mmos.. so its not suprising am gunna say somethin'.
Bluefyre said:Let's not go into slippery slope logical fallacies folks. It does the game no good.
This is why I keep trying to make people start thinking in degrees and not in black and white where x feature can only be done 2 ways, not at all or easy mode WoW feature trololololo.
Yes, thank you! I get so annoyed when people say something is a slippery slope without realizing that the term actually references a fallacious line of reasoning.
It's not always "all or nothing", and every game that people hate (WoW included) generally has several redeeming qualities that get completely drowned out in a sea of negativity. There is wiggle room to do interesting, innovative things without suddenly turning the game into your worst nightmare.
The reason I said slippery slope isn't because I think there are only two options Old School EQ and new school WoW, but because if you give up something (say fast travel to group to make it easier to enjoy the game) then you tend to also give up fast travel anytime to make the game more enjoyable. And then once we give that up we tend to also make sure that travel times for raids is quick as traveling to a raid is not fun and soon enough BAM you have a mainstream MMO game like 90% of the ones out there right now...
Note I am not saying IT WILL HAPPEN but that it CAN/TENDS TO HAPPEN
Dreconic said:The reason I said slippery slope isn't because I think there are only two options Old School EQ and new school WoW, but because if you give up something (say fast travel to group to make it easier to enjoy the game) then you tend to also give up fast travel anytime to make the game more enjoyable. And then once we give that up we tend to also make sure that travel times for raids is quick as traveling to a raid is not fun and soon enough BAM you have a mainstream MMO game like 90% of the ones out there right now...
Note I am not saying IT WILL HAPPEN but that it CAN/TENDS TO HAPPEN
Just seems like a false dichotomy to me. I guess it ultimately doesn't matter though, w/e.
FWIW.. I have the LFG tag up nearly all the time when playing EQ progression server.
The ability to flag yourself LFG, is a MMORPG stable. I just think that in a new era of MMORPG games, that we can dig a little deeper on how/when the actual player can use the LFG search function.
In Pantheon, One will have to use cities and towns more often, because it is going to be a game where you will have to rely on others more. More interaction.
Now, Pantheon is going to provide bigger & deeper & higher cities than anything brad has done before. And big or small, there will be taverns. I think this is the perfect place for those who are actually looking for a group to find another, who is also looking for a group. Thus, now able to open up a UI LFG window. There can be all kinds of mechanics tied to the function of it, such as Capital Cities you don't have to be in a pub or tavern to use said window, or a mechanic where the smaller the town, the smaller the radius in the search, etc. (ie: local/regional, etc)
Towns and taverns are always luring successful group or individuals out of a dungeon, because they have to sell their warez, and get new supplies, ran out of reagents, out of food & water.. had to fix their armor, or check their garden, use the bank, etc. There is a reason why they are a social hubs. That is the push pull.. in heading out into the wilderness & unknown.. and getting torn back to the nearest village, town or city.. and that cycle should be never ending.. as that push pull is the pulse and tidal source that fuels all the economy.
Now, if an Adventurer was truly stocked & ready for battle (ie: full reagents & fresh repairs on the armor & weapons).. then you would already be heading out to a dungeon anyways and it that genral direction.. And would obviously be meeting up with others at the dungeon head anyways, who would also be looking for a PUG. (At that point, it is where social skills come into play, not a flag over your head).
So, for those who are selling, or repairing, or buying, or re-rationing, etc. the nearest village, town, city, would be the best place to meet up with others, who are also doing the same and are about to put aside some time for some groupage. (presumably for more than 2h).
Again, I do not think the looking for group window should be accessible at all times (see above). But, I do think One should always be able to have a LFG flag whenever they want.
Liav said:Bluefyre said:Let's not go into slippery slope logical fallacies folks. It does the game no good.
This is why I keep trying to make people start thinking in degrees and not in black and white where x feature can only be done 2 ways, not at all or easy mode WoW feature trololololo.
Yes, thank you! I get so annoyed when people say something is a slippery slope without realizing that the term actually references a fallacious line of reasoning.
It's not always "all or nothing", and every game that people hate (WoW included) generally has several redeeming qualities that get completely drowned out in a sea of negativity. There is wiggle room to do interesting, innovative things without suddenly turning the game into your worst nightmare.
Let me be honest I know its not a black and white thing. But it certainly isn't a fallacy or even a logical fallacy. I just don't understand the point of designing an mmo rpg as a solo/single player. To me, it doesn't make any sense when they (the devs) could make it so much easier upon themselves to making it a single player game experience.. an experience that would be better, cheaper, richer content, more entertaining game.. but with added drop-in co-operative. To me, that's the illogical part mainly.. and by doing it in a mmo setting; all it serves is to ruin and disappoint it for the people who are actually seeking investment in the world/game. That doesn't sound like a fallacy to me.. it sounds like common sense. Why waste all that money when they could create something like skyrim with drop in co-op which would ACTUALLY be a BETTER experience than most of these mmo's out there. See my point?
There will always be varying degrees of solo vs group content within mmos.. but to me it isn't an mmo if it's <51% group orientated.. because to behonest? why bother making it a mmo if thats the case.. it's a complete waste of time/money and hypes the game up to be nothing but a cheap single player experience.. which I can get better offline.
And the other guys right. It can be a slippery slope.. but if I didnt believe in VR I wouldn't be here.
Dreconic said:Xanier said:Some good points all around. I actually think a LFG tool is smart expecially depending on how large the game is. I would like to see all city hubs connected in social communications and it would be a cool idea that in that "hub" typing /lfg Shaman healer 20-25 it would match you with others looking to make a group and in need of a role.
Xan
The RP'er inside myself cringes at having a server-wide or "all city hub" wide chat channel, but I understand that a LFG channel would need to be at least region-wide if not server-wide.
I do not agree with making a server wide channel, region channel, etc. The potential for abuse in a server wide LFG channel is very high, ppl will tend to try to use it as a trade channel, or chat channel. And honestly if you're going to do a server-wide LFG channel, you might as well implement a LFG tool, such as the one Liav descibes, and call it a day as it will be way more efficient in finding a grp/player.
Liav's idea for LFG tool is a good one, it is almost like EQs LFG tool, it was very simple and worked very well without being a cumbersome design, you tagged yourself LFG then anyone looking could find you. You could sort by lvl ranges or class as well.
