I'm in my 40s now. I have a family. I get up at 4:50am Mon-Fri to go to the gym. I have a full time job, and am about to go back to school again. I'm not looking for a sense of personal fulfillment in a game. I'm fully well aware that nothing that I or anyone will ever do in this game matters. It is completely meaningless.
I only have so much free time in a week. I'm not interested in someone saying "well then Pantheon isn't for you", so you may as well save that useless remark. If I find 2 hours to play a game, I want to play a game, not seek deep personal and spiritual meaning in a WTS macro.
Long live the bazaar.
Despise me all you want, but I am here to explore the world, fight mobs, and have fun with friends. I am not here to spam chat channels for hours while watching TV.
Trading is the worst aspect of the game possible. I will do whatever I can to avoid it.
Its not about being "easy core ". It's about not dreading getting on a game because the few hours I have to enjoy my day is spent with chat spam for every little, minuscule item.
I want to go have fun with friends and kill monsters, not listen to telemarketers all day.
Can't speak for anyone else, but i personaly never really found much interest in any sort of market in game. I prefer to go out and find most stuff myself. Explore, play make alts have them farm some lower level tradeskill stuff.. its all part of the fun for me. Usually hoard anything marked tradskill or quest etc. My only beef with the in game markets is that players take to all channels to try and turn a buck. Yeah we have this channel and that channel but heck most games if you turned off allt he channels of ppl selling stuff might as well just remove the chat window!! (which is gunna come with a spell check feature.. right? guys?) What ever happens happens cant say i am not used to it being out there. Eventually stuff hits the open world and gets sold for money then goobers get involved and sweat shops selling currency and flame wars about this and that.
Most opinions wont matter to most here and same with mine i am guessing. Markets will do what they must but here is hopin that there is a hard line stance to folks exploiting the game in anyway and it is done with a haste.
Sintec said:I'm for no AH but maybe there is a neutral ground. Create an Auction house where a player can list their items with contact information but no price or details. You still have to contact the seller and haggel.
My understanding is that the community would end up creating their own AH to bypass this that would include their prices. One way or another, if there isn't an abundance of readily available information in the game itself, players will look for ways to get around it. I would much rather see something in the game than resort to using a 3'rd party site. I'm fine with bulletin boards, the newspaper option, NPC run shops, etc.
@Raelsmar: Hey, nothing wrong with wanting to keep the thread alive to get your fix of Pantheon. I am looking forward to the official game forums ... I have considered making an unofficial game forum similar to what EQ2flames was for EQ2 but it's difficult to justify a project like that when the official version is on the horizon.
In an EVE model where, over time, items_in + currency_in ≈ items_out + currency_out, local auction houses are sensible. It would need to include both buy and sell orders. I am not convinced that the systems discussed so far with soul-binding, and sacrificing in Pantheon will be sufficient to make the equation true. The items_out term is the problem. Ever other term is accounted for in the design.
If this design problem can be adequately addressed, the concerns that I have about localized auction houses go away. If it is not adequately addressed; the additional upward pressure that inconvenience creates on the items_out term will be needed. I think that it is important to get the economic system running smoothly first. Once it is functioning the problems created by local auction houses are greatly diminished and I can enjoy the benfits without angst.
I wish to play devil's advocate for a moment. If for no other reason than to show that I care about the truth, no matter where it leads. I will argue that any trade is social by its very nature. Saying that trades conducted on an auction house are not, "social," is to say that, "Trades made using an auction house do not have the dressings of sociality that some people like." In few modern homes are Victorian manners enforce. Does our lack of Victorian manners make eating at the dinner table any less social? If I think a particular merchant is a turd; I will sell and buy from someone else. In order for this kind of social activity to take place; not one word need be exchanged between us. Does that make it any less social. Does the presence, or lack, of an auction house have any impact on the social nature of such a decision to boycott? I would implore you that the answer is no. Social forces are at play in either scenario. A local auction house removes the social dressing part of a trade for the more introverted folks out there who have no interest in being extrovertedly social.
Archaen said:As polarizing as it may be, a game with an AH is different than a game without one. Perhaps we disagree as to the degree, but in my view it is a fundamentally different game. It affects more than sitting in the EC Tunnel on a Monday evening. It is far more reaching than simply eliminating tedium. There are myriad options in-between that all change the game in their own way. I would be opposed to any idea that pushes the game too far toward the merits and foibles of an AH. I would prefer it to stay very close to personal trading/communication.
I understand there is no real "compromise" in that view point. I don't see a way to add in the features I view as "easycore" without it altering the game to such a degree as to no longer fit the expectations of a game that wants to hearken back to the days of EQ. Yes, this presents a dilemma... mostly for me. Specifically concering EQ, I saw the effect of adding an AH (bazaar), I saw the effect of adding fast travel to cities. It was very clear the difference between WoW dungeons and EQ dungeons. So, yes, I don't understand how those arguing for these features don't see what they bring with them.
The biggest point I was trying to make with the "faith" argument was how do I reconcile the statements and former experiences with "trust the devs". Every game who has pushed that statement has failed to deliver on its promises. I truly hope Pantheon can be the one to break that mold, and perhaps that is why I argue so vehemently for something I see as inherent to it staying true to the "hardcore" nature of its Vision(TM).
There is a compromise though and its been listed many times with the Billboard system. You see a list of buyers/sellers and you get in contact with them and you either sell or buy goods from them. You still have to get in contact with them and meet them in person which is the hardcore/conversation portion of what a lot of the hardcore people want so you can haggle, and than there's the "softcore portion of the billboard of just seeing a list of people selling/buying these items so you know who to talk to without seeing in chat. It's a fair compromise and honestly i like it the most if we mix the 2 since it isn't entirely easy and also the price will always flux due to not being able to list prices on the billboard so who you never know if your getting the best deal and also make it to where the billboard doesn't list the buyer/seller globally so they can't contact every player by looking at a different billboard to far away.
Beefcake said:Despise me all you want, but I am here to explore the world, fight mobs, and have fun with friends. I am not here to spam chat channels for hours while watching TV.
Trading is the worst aspect of the game possible. I will do whatever I can to avoid it.
Its not about being "easy core ". It's about not dreading getting on a game because the few hours I have to enjoy my day is spent with chat spam for every little, minuscule item.
I want to go have fun with friends and kill monsters, not listen to telemarketers all day.
We have brought up a handful of ideas in which there would be no auction house and yet you could still sell/buy your items without having to 'spam the chat channels while watching tv'.
I have a few questions though.
First, when did MMORPGs become solely about killing monsters? You say you want to explore the world, have fun with friends, and kill monsters. This is basically all the same thing though which makes a very 1dimensional MMO. Exploring the world and fighting monsters go hand and hand. Sure you can explore the world without fighting monsters, but if you want to explore MOST of the world then you will be fighting monsters. And what other ways are there to have fun with friends other than killing monsters? When it all boils down, it appears all you want to do is fight monsters. Which is great, but I hope there is a LOT more for myself and others who want more of a world out there for us to enjoy. I ask this because trading items is a BIG part of the game. Exploring the world, fighting monsters, crafting, trading are equally as big and all take up good portions of the game. So even if you don't like trading it's a big part of the game for others and is big for THEIR enjoyment.
Second, what about the people who DO find fun in trading items in person? Yes, you find absolutely ZERO fun in the trade of items but there are many people who do find fun in it. So unless a proper AH is designed that promotes an avenue for players to have fun trading in person, you are vehemently asking for a feature at their expense. You don't find it fun, they do, yet we've proposed many ideas that you could have fun your way in the game without an AH. We are concerned because the auction houses found in games like WoW, Rift, ESO, D&D, even VG and even more MMOs will threaten OUR enjoyment of the game. We don't have great examples to say "hey, we do have VG which had a great auction house that also provided a great means for players to trade in person" they all are terrible for what we want.
NoobieDoo said:Beefcake said:Despise me all you want, but I am here to explore the world, fight mobs, and have fun with friends. I am not here to spam chat channels for hours while watching TV.
Trading is the worst aspect of the game possible. I will do whatever I can to avoid it.
Its not about being "easy core ". It's about not dreading getting on a game because the few hours I have to enjoy my day is spent with chat spam for every little, minuscule item.
I want to go have fun with friends and kill monsters, not listen to telemarketers all day.
We have brought up a handful of ideas in which there would be no auction house and yet you could still sell/buy your items without having to 'spam the chat channels while watching tv'.
I have a few questions though.
First, when did MMORPGs become solely about killing monsters? You say you want to explore the world, have fun with friends, and kill monsters. This is basically all the same thing though which makes a very 1dimensional MMO. Exploring the world and fighting monsters go hand and hand. Sure you can explore the world without fighting monsters, but if you want to explore MOST of the world then you will be fighting monsters. And what other ways are there to have fun with friends other than killing monsters? When it all boils down, it appears all you want to do is fight monsters. Which is great, but I hope there is a LOT more for myself and others who want more of a world out there for us to enjoy. I ask this because trading items is a BIG part of the game. Exploring the world, fighting monsters, crafting, trading are equally as big and all take up good portions of the game. So even if you don't like trading it's a big part of the game for others and is big for THEIR enjoyment.
Second, what about the people who DO find fun in trading items in person? Yes, you find absolutely ZERO fun in the trade of items but there are many people who do find fun in it. So unless a proper AH is designed that promotes an avenue for players to have fun trading in person, you are vehemently asking for a feature at their expense. You don't find it fun, they do, yet we've proposed many ideas that you could have fun your way in the game without an AH. We are concerned because the auction houses found in games like WoW, Rift, ESO, D&D, even VG and even more MMOs will threaten OUR enjoyment of the game. We don't have great examples to say "hey, we do have VG which had a great auction house that also provided a great means for players to trade in person" they all are terrible for what we want.
Since you ask, I tend to all the crafters maxed in almost every MMO I play. I just hate trading. It's that simple.
I could care less how other people trade. If they want to spam all day, good for them. That's what options are for.
I want options in trade In AH or otherwise. You want to control people and force them to do things your way.
I read the first 12 pages or so, then realized this thread was MUCH MUCH longer! So i kinda browzed thru the rest fairly quickly.
However this is pretty much the consensus.
Folks want it old school a La EC tunnel or with Bazaar AH style. Some in between.
The thing i HAVENT read is that things are the way they have evolved because players in large part demanded it.
I am not too sure how the EC tunnel started but it became that way because it is human nature! Just like it was human nature to barter and trade in the dark ages. Just as it has evolved with venetian lodges and crusaders with letters of credits! To today Kijiji/Craig list, stock trading etc. Human trading economy has evolved because we have evolved as species and our world as well.
In my mind a new MMO is no different tho it is on a smaller scale.
Maybe the first year a trading system with just a standard location for regional trading will be sufficient?
Eventually items are going to be in much larger quantities and then you will need an NPC to sell your wares to eventually some sort of AH/Bazaar! Tho i personally enjoy the bazaar i think there is a time and a place for it and a way to implement it so it still requires some sort of social interaction. The needs of the players on the first few months arent gona be as demanding as when we have had the game for a year. We will need more robust trading options.
Buying an item and instant delivery in my books is a no no. But it is just a personal opinion.
I guess the dev team has their own ideas and plan already in motion on this very lenghty topic but i do hope that in the end it will be a good consensus between the options mentionned.
Imagine this.. A game where grouping is almost mandatory. No AH and you either craft it or loot it.. Bamm, put bard in.
Who cares about the ah in a game where you have to group all the time. I sure dont. Crafted loot has rarely been better than dropped loot and even then it takes so much to level the craft you hit your max char level and all you can craft is leather. LOL #removetheah & #fixcrafting
Beefcake said:Since you ask, I tend to all the crafters maxed in almost every MMO I play. I just hate trading. It's that simple.
I could care less how other people trade. If they want to spam all day, good for them. That's what options are for.
I want options in trade In AH or otherwise. You want to control people and force them to do things your way.
No, I don't. It's obvious you are not reading what's being discussed here, definitely not reading what I'm posting at least, so what's even the point of responding?
Searril said:I'm in my 40s now. I have a family. I get up at 4:50am Mon-Fri to go to the gym. I have a full time job, and am about to go back to school again. I'm not looking for a sense of personal fulfillment in a game. I'm fully well aware that nothing that I or anyone will ever do in this game matters. It is completely meaningless.
I only have so much free time in a week. I'm not interested in someone saying "well then Pantheon isn't for you", so you may as well save that useless remark. If I find 2 hours to play a game, I want to play a game, not seek deep personal and spiritual meaning in a WTS macro.
Long live the bazaar.
I mean that's a really busy schedule, but you have options, just don't trade, or ask a guild mate to help you with it and give them some extra money.
jpedrote said:Searril said:I'm in my 40s now. I have a family. I get up at 4:50am Mon-Fri to go to the gym. I have a full time job, and am about to go back to school again. I'm not looking for a sense of personal fulfillment in a game. I'm fully well aware that nothing that I or anyone will ever do in this game matters. It is completely meaningless.
I only have so much free time in a week. I'm not interested in someone saying "well then Pantheon isn't for you", so you may as well save that useless remark. If I find 2 hours to play a game, I want to play a game, not seek deep personal and spiritual meaning in a WTS macro.
Long live the bazaar.
I mean that's a really busy schedule, but you have options, just don't trade, or ask a guild mate to help you with it and give them some extra money.
Sadly, this is the typical answer in this thread.
Do it my way or just don't trade. Only one point of view allowed. Everyone else has to suck it up or stay out of the economy.
Bardee said:Imagine this.. A game where grouping is almost mandatory. No AH and you either craft it or loot it.. Bamm, put bard in.
Who cares about the ah in a game where you have to group all the time. I sure dont. Crafted loot has rarely been better than dropped loot and even then it takes so much to level the craft you hit your max char level and all you can craft is leather. LOL #removetheah & #fixcrafting
In today's world of gaming where a lot of people are used to the AH, you simply just cant throw is out like that, i liked the EC feel as well i did it for a long time, mainly FV becuase i was on a PvP server but anyway, we have to make compromises, we understand not everyone wants to do the EC tinnel things infact it seems like that is on the losing side of things, and also dont want it to be full blown AH side of things, so we have to compromise, and people incluing myself have come out with so good ideas on how that could be done if people would just read the posts on the forums before actually writing a post they would we that even the preson who created this post and myself have relize how there can be a bit of both in a game and make it work for both parties and we don't have to tell everyone AH/no AH back and forth to each other and actually come up if something with both and just work with it.
Beefcake said:Sadly, this is the typical answer in this thread.
Do it my way or just don't trade. Only one point of view allowed. Everyone else has to suck it up or stay out of the economy.
It’s not one point of view allowed, everyone one is entitled to their view, in the VR will decide, but the truth is most players that want an auction house don’t give a **** about trading they just want an easy and accessible way to sell items, like me I would love an AH I don’t care in the least for spamming trade chat to sell or buy.
But unlike you I can see what problems an AH creates for the players that like chat trading, it completely kills it. If an AH exists it will be the way to go, all other methods of trading will become obsolete in comparison to the AH, almost all players take the path of least resistance and that’s a fact.
I know you don’t really care about trading as many other and myself, just remember that having an AH in the game will completely kill social trading and ruin that part of the game for the players that actually enjoy doing it, so instead of being selfish for your own benefit just accept social trading and let the players that enjoy trading have their fun.
Has everyone here posting read and watched what VR has in mind for pantheon? The general path they want to take? I don't want to step on anyone's ideas I mean by all means post them, but VR has said time and time again they do not want to be like all other mmos. They want to bring back old school style. So yes games may have evolved and adapted to what people have complained and cried about to make things easier but that does not mean that's how it should be. The vast majority of people would love to be able to live free of expenses and rules that doesn't mean that's how it should be. I know that was an extreme comparison but you get the point. I understand that the auction house made it 100 times easier to buy and sell but it deleted that 1 on 1 experience that got people to communicate with one another and develop friendships.
People's main complaint is that with no auction house you have to sit in one area spamming their sells and not being able to do anything else. For those claiming this issue you have clearly not been with out an Auction house. The East commons tunnel scenario people refer to was something the community came up with themselves. Not because that was the only way to sell but because the social aspect of it was so enjoyable. That didn't mean you had to sit there and sell and that was the only way or thing you could do. There was still a trade channel, and you could still post your sells in chat while you were grinding a camp or something.
I for one would be ok with something in the middle, but nothing automated. If you want to sell something you should have to sell it yourself through haggel and communication. The bazaar and auction house needs to go away in Pantheon. If you want the bazaar then why not play any other game out right now.
>Second, what about the people who DO find fun in trading items in person? Yes, you find absolutely ZERO fun in the trade of items but there are many people who do find fun in it. So unless a proper AH is designed that promotes an avenue for players to have fun trading in person, you are vehemently asking for a feature at their expense<
With all due respect this doesn't at all seem to follow. I have never ever in any MMO seen a AH that makes it difficult or impossible for players to trade in person. In fact essentially all of them encourage trading in person by imposing fees that make selling on the AH less profitable. So, no, a AH would not be at the expense of people that enjoy haggling it would just remove those that do NOT enjoy haggling from the bazaar and let us spend the time doing the other things in the game that we prefer.
dorotea said:>Second, what about the people who DO find fun in trading items in person? Yes, you find absolutely ZERO fun in the trade of items but there are many people who do find fun in it. So unless a proper AH is designed that promotes an avenue for players to have fun trading in person, you are vehemently asking for a feature at their expense<
With all due respect this doesn't at all seem to follow. I have never ever in any MMO seen a AH that makes it difficult or impossible for players to trade in person. In fact essentially all of them encourage trading in person by imposing fees that make selling on the AH less profitable. So, no, a AH would not be at the expense of people that enjoy haggling it would just remove those that do NOT enjoy haggling from the bazaar and let us spend the time doing the other things in the game that we prefer.
The issue is the vast majority of people will always take the easy route, and let's face it the AH is the easy way. If 90% of people are using Ah then there are not enough people trading 1 on 1 to create the community some are wanting to bring back. I still think a good middle ground would be a bulletin board or something that you can list items for sale and price but you have to contact that person to make the transaction that way haggling is forced into the equation. If you can just post your items on a typical auction house then people don't care to respond to haggle due to there being thousands of other players who would buy the item for your asking price rather than look for a good deal.
Sintec said:
The issue is the vast majority of people will always take the easy route, and let's face it the AH is the easy way. If 90% of people are using Ah then there are not enough people trading 1 on 1 to create the community some are wanting to bring back. I still think a good middle ground would be a bulletin board or something that you can list items for sale and price but you have to contact that person to make the transaction that way haggling is forced into the equation. If you can just post your items on a typical auction house then people don't care to respond to haggle due to there being thousands of other players who would buy the item for your asking price rather than look for a good deal.
Yup the bulletin board is the perfect middle ground, and it looks amazing :)
There are players that are really good at using an AH system to dominate the cash flow... They thrive on it and probably spend the majority of their time doing it to gain a financial edge. An automatic system also scares me as it encourages gold farmers to do their thing. So I get why there are extreme differences of opinion and why this thread sees no end.
I do not care for an Auto AH system for reasons i've pointed out above. Somewhere as a middle ground is fine by me. I do like the bulletin board idea and prefer a little more direct interaction between real players. It adds a realism to the game.
I am also hoping that we have more meaningful stuff to sell as I am hoping the rest of the items have multiple ways of being depleted out of the market and not just by selling it to other players. Less to sell, higher value is what I like to see. Not to mention, being able to buy off of vendors after a player sells to them. Always enjoyed that early on in EQ.