BeaverBiscuit said:
The trouble with player brokers of course is trust. It will put a whole new requirement on a good self punishing player society. When you did get someone to buy and sell things for you though, there are few stronger in game relationships.
How about a system where you can somehow contract your items to other players? Like they can use/hold it until you say they can't, at which time it is teleported to your bank or some such? If you didn't have space then you simply couldn't annul the contract. Its a simple and probably too new to be good idea. I mean, gold sellers would have a field day if everyone could trust them to sell their stuff for profit. But still, the trust issue does bother me, thoughts?
Just relying on another player whether it be a random or a friend could lead to many problems and concerns. I think you are on the right path with your /hold feature. Basically to ease people's minds all you'd have to do is have the game itself act as the go-between. Meaning instead of a player giving his items to a player broker directly, they click on something like the storage shelves inside a shop and places their items there to be sold. This way the broker never has access to the items directly. The player broker can remain in the shop and possibly craft while they sell their items and others, would-be buyers can stop by to view what all items are for sale, and the co-signer can come back whenever to pick up their money and/or items. The co-signer can easily look at what all items are remaining in order to see what items sold.
It's a very rough draft and I'm sure there are plenty of other things to think about like what if more than one player wants to broker (they can each take on a section of the shop maybe), maybe to be a broker you have to pay a fee, taking this a step further maybe the shop is big and with time we find out that players stick to the sections closer to the door(front of the shop) and thus maybe a broker would pay a higher fee to sell closer to the door, maybe the shop is divided into sections that represent differnt types of items like a section for weapons, etc, but the important part is making all players be at ease. And using the shop/game itself as the go-between would be a great way to make a player's items safe as well as act as a storage unit for the items so that no player has to fill up their inventory just to sell the items.
Beefcake said:Of course, when options are mentioned, people start saying that if options are allowed, people will choose one way and no one will do the other. That is a non-sense argument. If people want to socially trade, they will. Even when markets are enabled in games, you still see plenty of spam where people are socially trading items.
I want to address just this part.
I... am fat. That may not seem like it's relevant but go with me on this for a moment.
See, for a couple years I didn't have a car. I walked everywhere. I didn't even take the bus. I would walk. I could easily do 30 miles in a day. I wasn't as fat back then as I am now, but I was still pretty hefty, however, my doctor would look at my blood pressure, look at my cholesterol, and he'd tell me I should lose a little weight, but I really wasn't in bad shape. He said it probably had a lot to do with how much walking I did.
Eventually, my job promoted me to a management position. I had to be able to drive to the bank, buy change, take deposits, etc. So I bought a car. When I bought the car I told myself I'd still do a lot of walking, that just because I could drive didn't mean I would drive everywhere.
Of course, now, even if it's just down the block I drive. I drive everywhere. I still tell myself I should walk. I even promise myself, at least once a month, that I'm going to go back to walking. Save money on gas, get into better shape, maybe even shed a few of the pounds I've picked up. But no, still I drive.
I really prefer social trading. I do, it's what I grew up on, it feels better, I'm a huge fan of the interactions I have with others while I'm standing around peddling my wares. If you put a broker in the game I garauntee I'll almost never stand around peddling my wares, I'll just drop it on the AH and go about my busy day. I also know I'm not alone in that. I know, I know there are other folks sitting there reading this right now going, "That's me!!!" Except maybe not the fat part. But definitely the "if it's there I'm going to use it even though I keep telling myself not to" part.
Here's what it boils down to though. There are a dozen dozen different ways to promote social interaction, there are just as many conveniences that would take epople away from those social interactions. Are Auction Houses or Brokers inherently bad? No. Would they, by themselves, ruin the sense of community and social interactions? No. On the other hand if you had guild halls that replaced the need for all the city hubs, and you had fast travel, and you had auction houses, and you ha.... well you get the idea. All of a sudden your entire community is your guild. With that lack of social space outside the guild your guild reputation stops mattering, and your personal reputation only matters within the guild. Suddenly the larger scope of who you are, what you do, and how you conduct yourself stop mattering. Guilds become these insulated little worlds unto themselves, simply existing in the same space as others, but having no connection to them.
And all that isn't to say that ONE act of convenience (like an auction house) would ruin everything, but rather that... One is the pebble that starts the avalanche. You want auction houses? Fine. But all the other little conveniences that take away reasons to socialize outside the guild would have to be off the table.
Just my thoughts though, and I might be suffering from a caffeine overdose, so I don't know how much stock I'd put in anything I say.
Social trading is great for big items, but not so much for the small stuff.
Say I am crafting at 3am. I thought ahead, harvested/bought all the resources I need to make a great 7 piece set of armor or trying to reach that next level. I am being all social and crafting in the city like the purists demand.
I get down to that last piece I need to make. Damn. I calculated wrong. I am one minor ingredient short. Being on a low population server in a small guild, no other crafters of my type are on or in the city at 3am. Since the purists blocked the guild halls, I have no access to harvesting depots. Oh yeah, the purists also blocked global chat channels.
So, now, in order to finish this persons order, I have to travel across three zones to the closest social trading post, die once because it's 3 am and I am tired and forgot to change from my crafting gear to my adventuring gear, and PRAY that someone is on at 3am selling the 1 silver piece value item I need to finish this 50 plat order.
Or, I could've spent 2 minutes, got my ingredient from a npc broker, and finally gone to bed with my wife.
Which sounds like an experience you want in your FUN game, assuming you are not a masochist?]
Beefcake said:Social trading is great for big items, but not so much for the small stuff.
Say I am crafting at 3am. I thought ahead, harvested/bought all the resources I need to make a great 7 piece set of armor or trying to reach that next level. I am being all social and crafting in the city like the purists demand.
I get down to that last piece I need to make. Damn. I calculated wrong. I am one minor ingredient short. Being on a low population server in a small guild, no other crafters of my type are on or in the city at 3am. Since the purists blocked the guild halls, I have no access to harvesting depots. Oh yeah, the purists also blocked global chat channels.
So, now, in order to finish this persons order, I have to travel across three zones to the closest social trading post, die once because it's 3 am and I am tired and forgot to change from my crafting gear to my adventuring gear, and PRAY that someone is on at 3am selling the 1 silver piece value item I need to finish this 50 plat order.
Or, I could've spent 2 minutes, got my ingredient from a npc broker, and finally gone to bed with my wife.
Which sounds like an experience you want in your FUN game, assuming you are not a masochist?]
hehe, I lost track of this post around page 22... but have two ideas that others probably talked about already. For me I want to keep trade local to areas sure, but I think there are neat ways to go about this without requiring us all to sit around and spam each other.
Each of my ideas require two things. 1. Be in a Guild. 2. Be in a Guild that has meet the requirements to earn a Guild Hall or Guild Trade Stand.
At either the Hall or Trade Stand the Guild could either:
a. Use a board to post items the guild is selling and provide a mailbox of sorts for people to send said person selling the item a message to requesting to purchase it.
b. Be able to hire a vendor to stand outside the Guild Hall or at the Guild Trade Stand and sell items for the guild.
I'm sure these ideas are stupid to most, but I like them myself. I wouldn't like having to pull a Beefcake and run for hours to get something worth a copper or silver. Even though you still may in my idea as well if the local Guild Vendors don't have what you are looking for.
Beefcake said:So, now, in order to finish this persons order, I have to travel across three zones to the closest social trading post, die once because it's 3 am and I am tired and forgot to change from my crafting gear to my adventuring gear, and PRAY that someone is on at 3am selling the 1 silver piece value item I need to finish this 50 plat order.
Or, I could've spent 2 minutes, got my ingredient from a npc broker, and finally gone to bed with my wife.
Which sounds like an experience you want in your FUN game, assuming you are not a masochist?]
why not go to bed at 3 AM to your wife and finish it tomorrow if it's such a hardship to get your last armor done? why all the hurry/urgency? tomorrow your guildmates may be able to help you out and/or more other people are online.
some people are really masochistic, but not really because of the mechanics enforces it but because of their own attitude.
One hope for me for pantheon is, that things go slower and there is not this "gogogogo" and rushing everything mentality.
So many problems with the suggestions being given. Lesser of the evils is what we should shoot for. Them being time and getting scammed. Only one road makes sure both are not a problem. An Auction House. Having one does not stop people from yelling in what ever zone they feel like yelling in WTS XYZ. There is no social side of selling items. Its not like that where you make friends. Wanna buy? Yes or No is the depth of it at that point. Also most other systems make it easy to inflate prices and rip off gamers. As long as you put caps on AH for the number of times you can buy and sell in a day, your good.
Nanfoodle said:There is no social side of selling items. Its not like that where you make friends. Wanna buy? Yes or No is the depth of it at that point. Also most other systems make it easy to inflate prices and rip off gamers. As long as you put caps on AH for the number of times you can buy and sell in a day, your good.
cant really agree with that. perhaps you dont make friends with other people but i surely made some busines relations (ingame) in eq1 (which is also a social interaction, no? otherwise we may have different definitions of the meaning.). some other traders i frequently consulted for price check and sold/bought stuff from.
there often were no prices available to compare. were gamers ripped off? i dont know. what's the price of a sword, nearly unique on the server? hard to judge i'd say. also if you feel it's to much, you can always decide to not buy it. you may want that XY item, but you dont need it to progress. often, high end items were therefore traded against other high end items and not sold against gold/plat.
Nandor said:Nanfoodle said:There is no social side of selling items. Its not like that where you make friends. Wanna buy? Yes or No is the depth of it at that point. Also most other systems make it easy to inflate prices and rip off gamers. As long as you put caps on AH for the number of times you can buy and sell in a day, your good.
cant really agree with that. perhaps you dont make friends with other people but i surely made some busines relations (ingame) in eq1 (which is also a social interaction, no? otherwise we may have different definitions of the meaning.). some other traders i frequently consulted for price check and sold/bought stuff from.
there often were no prices available to compare. were gamers ripped off? i dont know. what's the price of a sword, nearly unique on the server? hard to judge i'd say. also if you feel it's to much, you can always decide to not buy it. you may want that XY item, but you dont need it to progress. often, high end items were therefore traded against other high end items and not sold against gold/plat.
I have gotten same interaction with people using AH system. Items for my crafting I buy all the time I would send tells to people who post them on the AH lots and work out bulk deals. Same level of depth from an AH. As for ripping people off, when you see the same item listed by 4 people you soon get an idea what the server is selling an item for. With direct selling its easier to lie to people what the going price is. With an AH you can check in your free time what going rates are over a month or two and start looking for a fair price. With direct selling means you dont always get to see every yell WTS rare sword you want.
Sabot said:Hate the idea of an auction house. It makes it easier for gold farmers to make their gold, it makes it easier for people that buy from those farmers to just twink themselves or alts out, and it basically means in game money has an inflated role. It is also very convenient for the average legit player to use.
I've said it before but no matter what happens you will not stop RMT. It was rampant in EQ and they had no auction house.
Beefcake said:Social trading is great for big items, but not so much for the small stuff.
Say I am crafting at 3am. I thought ahead, harvested/bought all the resources I need to make a great 7 piece set of armor or trying to reach that next level. I am being all social and crafting in the city like the purists demand.
I get down to that last piece I need to make. Damn. I calculated wrong. I am one minor ingredient short. Being on a low population server in a small guild, no other crafters of my type are on or in the city at 3am. Since the purists blocked the guild halls, I have no access to harvesting depots. Oh yeah, the purists also blocked global chat channels.
So, now, in order to finish this persons order, I have to travel across three zones to the closest social trading post, die once because it's 3 am and I am tired and forgot to change from my crafting gear to my adventuring gear, and PRAY that someone is on at 3am selling the 1 silver piece value item I need to finish this 50 plat order.
Or, I could've spent 2 minutes, got my ingredient from a npc broker, and finally gone to bed with my wife.
Which sounds like an experience you want in your FUN game, assuming you are not a masochist?]
This is a pretty good example of why most of us do NOT want an AH along with other "easycore" features. The biggest disconnect between us all is the attitude about these features. Apply your same example to dying in a dungeon, or camping a rare spawn, or travelling across a continent. The basic idea you're condoning is "I'm inconvenienced, so please add something that makes it easier." As you've stated before you don't really see the equivalence, but for most of us we not only see the equivalence, we've experienced it first hand.
It may well be that Pantheon will decide to add these "easycore" features and the game will go the way of most MMOs of today... successful, but not really the meaningful experience most of us here are looking for. If that happens, then it does and I'll move on waiting/hoping/investing in the next MMO dream that pushes for a more meaningful world. However, I'd love for my search to be over and for Pantheon to be that game.
It is for this reason, many of us argue so vehemently against the idea of the AH or anything like it.
Nekentros said:This AH/no-AH issue can be solved quite simply with alternate ruleset servers. There is no need to give in or compromise. It is clear we have passionate people on both sides. With this solution, both parties will be happy. I look forward to playing with all you no-AH peeps on the no-AH ruleset server. Case closed.
Excellent idea. See you there!! Altho I think AH shouldn't be in in the first place.
Archaen said:Beefcake said:Social trading is great for big items, but not so much for the small stuff.
Say I am crafting at 3am. I thought ahead, harvested/bought all the resources I need to make a great 7 piece set of armor or trying to reach that next level. I am being all social and crafting in the city like the purists demand.
I get down to that last piece I need to make. Damn. I calculated wrong. I am one minor ingredient short. Being on a low population server in a small guild, no other crafters of my type are on or in the city at 3am. Since the purists blocked the guild halls, I have no access to harvesting depots. Oh yeah, the purists also blocked global chat channels.
So, now, in order to finish this persons order, I have to travel across three zones to the closest social trading post, die once because it's 3 am and I am tired and forgot to change from my crafting gear to my adventuring gear, and PRAY that someone is on at 3am selling the 1 silver piece value item I need to finish this 50 plat order.
Or, I could've spent 2 minutes, got my ingredient from a npc broker, and finally gone to bed with my wife.
Which sounds like an experience you want in your FUN game, assuming you are not a masochist?]
This is a pretty good example of why most of us do NOT want an AH along with other "easycore" features. The biggest disconnect between us all is the attitude about these features. Apply your same example to dying in a dungeon, or camping a rare spawn, or travelling across a continent. The basic idea you're condoning is "I'm inconvenienced, so please add something that makes it easier." As you've stated before you don't really see the equivalence, but for most of us we not only see the equivalence, we've experienced it first hand.
It may well be that Pantheon will decide to add these "easycore" features and the game will go the way of most MMOs of today... successful, but not really the meaningful experience most of us here are looking for. If that happens, then it does and I'll move on waiting/hoping/investing in the next MMO dream that pushes for a more meaningful world. However, I'd love for my search to be over and for Pantheon to be that game.
It is for this reason, many of us argue so vehemently against the idea of the AH or anything like it.
I expressed my opinion on automated AH's on the last page (I do not want them in the game), but this was a point I left out. These "easycore" features as you describe them. Whether it be an automated AH, instant travel from one point to another without the assistance of another player, dungeon finders that instantly teleport you to a dungeon entrance and put together a "balanced" group for you, etc. are all things I am not a fan of.
I am not saying Pantheon or any MMO should be completely devoid of any of these things, but completely agree with what Archaen is saying. There can be a slippery slope where you give players one "easycore" feature and them some of them expect you to give them another "easycore" feature or everything on a silver platter where any sort of required effort on their end that can be left to automation should be. Eventually you have something very close to WoW clone # 27 which has been done to death. A lot of us are looking for a game that stands out and challenges us and does not hold our hand.
Part of the adventure and challenge to me is being "inconveinenced" as some put it and overcoming these "inconveniences" or obstacles. If there is no risk or challenge or little to no effort or time required, then there is no reward or sense of accomplishment to me. As Archaen said trying to sell/trade for an item, dying in a dungeon and having to recover my corpse or reclaim the camp I was at, camping/locating a rare spawn or item to complete a quest, traveling across the world to reach a certain point are all challenges (inconveniences to some) that I enjoy undertaking and hopefully overcoming.
With the example Beefcake stated if he is up until 3am working on some armor and he runs into a snag, nothing says he has to complete that set of armor that night. He can go to bed and get some (presumably) much needed rest, spend some time with his family, etc. You can always log back into the game tomorrow, the armor pattern to make the armor piece will still be there and the components will be as well, even if you have to put some effort into obtaining those components
In the case of selling an item, just because you looted an item or replaced one that you want to sell and don't have the "convenience" or benefit of an AH and can't sell it right away is not the end of the world. Even if you prefer to hunt/quest and are in a zone that is not a typical trade hub/center you can still in theory shout in whatever zone you are in to let others know you are looking to sell said. Or you can have a friend/guildmate who might be in a large city and/or trade hub area at the time let everyone know there you have said item and are looking to sell/trade it.
I don't think Archaen, I and others who agree with us on this issue are trying to push our opinions/views on others, but we are just tired of the same old things we have seen repeated over and over in MMOs for the last decade or so that fail to keep our interest for any period of time and offer nothing different or new that stands out because they are afraid to stray from the norm. To me it seems the people that are against the automated AH concept like us are much more passionate about this issue than those who want or are ok with having an AH, but I could be wrong. This is supposed to be a "niche" game targeting a somewhat specific audience/demographic/etc. I realize VR has to find a balance between us "purists" as you call us and others to make sure Pantheon speaks true to enough people that their subscriber base will be significant from the start and continue to flourish for many years to come. I just hope that there aren't too many concessions that have to be made that may take away some of the things that may make Pantheon unique or different like this so that it appeals to a mass audience and that perhaps a happy medium can be reached.
raelsmar said:
I expressed my opinion on automated AH's on the last page (I do not want them in the game), but this was a point I left out. These "easycore" features as you describe them. Whether it be an automated AH, instant travel from one point to another without the assistance of another player, dungeon finders that instantly teleport you to a dungeon entrance and put together a "balanced" group for you, etc. are all things I am not a fan of.
I am not saying Pantheon or any MMO should be completely devoid of any of these things, but completely agree with what Archaen is saying. There can be a slippery slope where you give players one "easycore" feature and them some of them expect you to give them another "easycore" feature or everything on a silver platter where any sort of required effort on their end that can be left to automation should be. Eventually you have something very close to WoW clone # 27 which has been done to death.
First I want to say I love whoever came up with that term, "easycore". I want to marry that person and carry their babies, and I don't even have the right anatomy to do the carrying of the babies.
Second, that second highlight, "WoW clone #27." That's it right there. If you want a game that has global auction houses, and guildhalls that replace the need for any other hubs, or easy access portals, or ... well any of those other "easycore" features, that game already exists. It's already out there. Look and you'll find it. Look hard enough and you'll find 33 berjillion of them. They're fricking everywhere. If you want a game that doesn't have those features, that hasn't caved in to those conveniences, you have..... erm? One? And it's not even it's own game it's an emulator of a 20 year old game that will never grow or expand and has 20 year old graphics. I think that's the point that folks are missing (and failing to make). These features... man they're everywhere. Every. Fricking. Where. The folks who don't want all that convenience need a place to be, and we're kind of hoping that this is such a place.
I like how the FAQ puts what it's EQ clone stance is. Simply put "We took what made sense" Making every area of the game without modern conveniences does hit a target of gamers but that does not make sense. Where it matters take what makes sense. Where it makes sense to keep a solid number of gamers to support the creation of new content and have a population that makes this a functioning game by adding some of the features most "expect" to see. Is what makes sense.
Where features steps on core needed values, that type of convenience should not make the cut. Question remains, will an AH break the spirit of what VR is trying to make here? Only they can answer. Myself I think no AH will put the market in the hands of the few. There is more power for gold sellers with no AH as all they have is time.
The casual gamer will be the only victim here as they will have to pick between playing the game or spending hours yelling WTS. VR is smart and much like games like GW2, VR can make an AH their own thing. Something that fits their vision. Much like the cosmetic toggle, I think VR will make the smart move that keeps Pantheons vision but gives us an AH that will be business savvy and looks after the other sides needs. And this is a need.
Nanfoodle said:There is more power for gold sellers with no AH as all they have is time.
Completely disagree. Gold sellers didnt thrive on EQ pre Luclin. They are not going to have much success without a global AH to manipulate. They will simply move on to another game that does have one.
Nanfoodle said:So many problems with the suggestions being given. Lesser of the evils is what we should shoot for. Them being time and getting scammed. Only one road makes sure both are not a problem. An Auction House. Having one does not stop people from yelling in what ever zone they feel like yelling in WTS XYZ. There is no social side of selling items. Its not like that where you make friends. Wanna buy? Yes or No is the depth of it at that point. Also most other systems make it easy to inflate prices and rip off gamers. As long as you put caps on AH for the number of times you can buy and sell in a day, your good.
I'd like to take a moment to reply to the idea that there's no social aspect to selling. With the old school EC tunnel style you ended up with this large group of people standing around the tunnel firing off their auction macro every few minutes. Now, som of those folks were watching tv, or cooking dinner, or reading a book. No social interaction. On the other hand some were watching chat to see if something they wanted was for sale. Still no interaction. On the other hand you might see someone with a cool bp you hadn'ta seen before and ask him where it came from, now you're in a conversation with some guy about this under used zone and how it has a bunch of cool gear that isn't quite as good as some of the other stuff out there, but it's much easier to obtain because no one is going to that zone. Two weeks later you end up having a laugh because you're camping in that zone and guess who shows up?
Or the guy who you always buy your bone chips from because some how he always has more for sale and you ask him how he always has so many and you discover he's an altoholic and is constantly remaking low level toons who are constantly leveling up by killing decrepit skeletons, and that this one level 49 is the only character he's gotten above 15 in three years of play.
Or the guy you see alwa giving out trash loot to newbies and you decide that now that all of your big ticket items are sold you'll just give him your trash to give away, and end up in a conversation about ho hard it was "back in the day" and how none of these noobs understand ho hard it was back when no one knew where anything was or what anything was, but how you both think it's great to see new people still coming into the game after all these years, and how funny it is to see them get all excited about loot that you would usually destroy if your bags were even close to being full.
The point is, the EC tunnel was about a lot more than standing there calling out your wares. The reali is, I'm not even entirely against the AH. I just look at all the convenience options and want to limit them. Having an ah might be okay, but having an ah, a guildhall that has the banker/AH/crafting stations/world portals, .... Yeah, AH I can capitulate to, just so long as the conveniences stop there. One thing that takes away one soci aspect is okay. More than that....
Also, if automated global trading is to be a thing, I really like the way GW 2 implemented it (aside from the whole being able to sell from anywhere part. At least make me go back into the city to put items on the AH.
Nekentros said:This idea is just silly. You can not expect a game like this to split up servers on every single issue that causes division. There is zero chance Pantheon would even entertain this.Lets hope they have alternate ruleset servers addressing this; one with AH and one without.
Yeah, I'd prefer no alternate rulesets just to appeal to ppl in favor of an AH and one for those who are not in favor. I'll still play Pantheon if they decide to go with an AH. The only thing that can upset me with this is if they use global auction houses. I can live with a local AH but I don't know how I'd feel about the other.
The devs really seem to want to bring back that feeling of being in a virtual world. They emphasize grouping and the social aspect. But imo, in order to do this they really have to focus on the social side of things. If they can create the systems found in game with social in mind first and then finish that off with convenience then I think they will hit the mark. Just because we want a social heavy bartering system doesn't mean we don't or can't make it convenient. This is what some don't seem to get. They just want convenience, but there is no NPC ran AH that "looks out for the other side". Even with a higher sales tax to promote a different avenue for ppl to sell in person it doesn't fix the fact that the NPC AH is not inherently social. Most to all ppl in favor of no AH seem to want both socialness AND convenience.
For anyone who favors an AH if you could play Pantheon without ever having to spend really any time selling your items personally, if there was a system/feature in place that allowed you to place your items up for bid or just allowed you to simply drop off your items to be sold only NOT with an NPC but a player with 100% safety on your items (it is possible) then what do you have to lose?
Beefcake said:Social trading is great for big items, but not so much for the small stuff.
Say I am crafting at 3am. I thought ahead, harvested/bought all the resources I need to make a great 7 piece set of armor or trying to reach that next level. I am being all social and crafting in the city like the purists demand.
I get down to that last piece I need to make. Damn. I calculated wrong. I am one minor ingredient short. Being on a low population server in a small guild, no other crafters of my type are on or in the city at 3am. Since the purists blocked the guild halls, I have no access to harvesting depots. Oh yeah, the purists also blocked global chat channels.
So, now, in order to finish this persons order, I have to travel across three zones to the closest social trading post, die once because it's 3 am and I am tired and forgot to change from my crafting gear to my adventuring gear, and PRAY that someone is on at 3am selling the 1 silver piece value item I need to finish this 50 plat order.
Or, I could've spent 2 minutes, got my ingredient from a npc broker, and finally gone to bed with my wife.
Which sounds like an experience you want in your FUN game, assuming you are not a masochist?]
FUN is subjective. I find it fun to think about the things I'm going to do the next time I log on, how I'm going to go about it to make it efficient, and the things I hope to accomplish. I enjoy looking up the best ways to get those things completed, and where best to do it. So for me in the scenario you describe, logging out at 11pm (about 2 hours after my wife is already pissed) and looking forward all the next day to logging in again to finish things up would be "fun". And it's fun for years, whereas when everyone gets their instant gratification they get everything they want with little effort and little investment and they are done with the game in a matter of a few short months at most.
Reafwalk said:Nanfoodle said:So many problems with the suggestions being given. Lesser of the evils is what we should shoot for. Them being time and getting scammed. Only one road makes sure both are not a problem. An Auction House. Having one does not stop people from yelling in what ever zone they feel like yelling in WTS XYZ. There is no social side of selling items. Its not like that where you make friends. Wanna buy? Yes or No is the depth of it at that point. Also most other systems make it easy to inflate prices and rip off gamers. As long as you put caps on AH for the number of times you can buy and sell in a day, your good.
I'd like to take a moment to reply to the idea that there's no social aspect to selling. With the old school EC tunnel style you ended up with this large group of people standing around the tunnel firing off their auction macro every few minutes. Now, som of those folks were watching tv, or cooking dinner, or reading a book. No social interaction. On the other hand some were watching chat to see if something they wanted was for sale. Still no interaction. On the other hand you might see someone with a cool bp you hadn'ta seen before and ask him where it came from, now you're in a conversation with some guy about this under used zone and how it has a bunch of cool gear that isn't quite as good as some of the other stuff out there, but it's much easier to obtain because no one is going to that zone. Two weeks later you end up having a laugh because you're camping in that zone and guess who shows up?
Or the guy who you always buy your bone chips from because some how he always has more for sale and you ask him how he always has so many and you discover he's an altoholic and is constantly remaking low level toons who are constantly leveling up by killing decrepit skeletons, and that this one level 49 is the only character he's gotten above 15 in three years of play.
Or the guy you see alwa giving out trash loot to newbies and you decide that now that all of your big ticket items are sold you'll just give him your trash to give away, and end up in a conversation about ho hard it was "back in the day" and how none of these noobs understand ho hard it was back when no one knew where anything was or what anything was, but how you both think it's great to see new people still coming into the game after all these years, and how funny it is to see them get all excited about loot that you would usually destroy if your bags were even close to being full.
The point is, the EC tunnel was about a lot more than standing there calling out your wares. The reali is, I'm not even entirely against the AH. I just look at all the convenience options and want to limit them. Having an ah might be okay, but having an ah, a guildhall that has the banker/AH/crafting stations/world portals, .... Yeah, AH I can capitulate to, just so long as the conveniences stop there. One thing that takes away one soci aspect is okay. More than that....
Also, if automated global trading is to be a thing, I really like the way GW 2 implemented it (aside from the whole being able to sell from anywhere part. At least make me go back into the city to put items on the AH.
I have seen all that happen with an AH system. Its no different. People gathered in a large city by the AH posting items and reposting items. Someone sick of trying to resell the same item 5 times gives a bag of goodies to a level 10 newbe trying to find his trainer. People done selling and destressing for a long day of adventuring strip naked and start dancing on the mailbox. People running from the AH to the mailbox to collect goods start dancing with the naked guy on the mailbox. Small party starts, people start setting off fireworks and other holiday junk. Newbes get in on it. They start inspecting the higher-level chars and asking where you get that gear.
Having an auction house does not make a game a "WoW clone". EQ had a rudimentary auction house before WoW existed (The Bazaar zone). Telling someone to play WoW because they want an auction house doesn't even make sense. You are basically saying the auction house is the only thing that separates WoW from games that aren't WoW.
I played EQ for 11 years after launch. I experienced the pre-Bazaar days and the post-Bazaar days extensively. I personally do not want to go back to the days of spamming chat macros to try to sell stuff. Furthermore, I do not understand this argument that an auction house takes away from the social interaction of the game. In the probably hundreds of hours I spent in North Freeport selling stuff (that's where trading was done on my server), I could probably count on one hand the amount of people I said more than two sentences to. The rest of the time I was watching TV, playing another game, or reading while periodically checking my chat window. That isn't very social to me. That's the complete opposite of social.
Now, I do have one concern about auction houses that has nothing to do with that. In my experience, auction houses almost always lead to a buyer's market. The reason for this is if someone wants to sell an item, they will always search for the item on the AH first, and then post it for sale slightly cheaper than the cheapest one currently listed. The next person wanting to sell the item does the same thing, and so on. But honestly, I think the best way to combat this is simply to control the rate of flow of items into the game, or putting something like a tribute feature into the game where people can do stuff with their old items other than selling them.
Beefcake said:...
So, now, in order to finish this persons order, I have to travel across three zones to the closest social trading post, die once because it's 3 am and I am tired and forgot to change from my crafting gear to my adventuring gear, and PRAY that someone is on at 3am selling the 1 silver piece value item I need to finish this 50 plat order.
Or, I could've spent 2 minutes, got my ingredient from a npc broker, and finally gone to bed with my wife.
...
In my mind I'm playing out how this would go in my household with my wife.
"I realize it is 3am! No, I cannot come to bed. If this game had an auction house I'd be in bed in a couple of minutes. But because there is no auction house I am going to be up a little while longer. Yes! This is the most important thing in my life!"
...
Nope, I wouldn't even make it to the last sentence...
Actually, I wouldn't even make it to the second last sentence...
Actually, I wouldn't even make it past the first sentence...
Pretty much as soon as I said, "I realize it is 3am" would be the end of it - and probably my gaming life (or maybe even my life).
I know there will be all sorts of players in the world of Pantheon. I will NOT be one of those players uttering the phrase "I realize it is 3am! and I cannot come to bed." For me, there is always tomorrow; there is always "next time."
snrub said:Having an auction house does not make a game a "WoW clone". EQ had a rudimentary auction house before WoW existed (The Bazaar zone). Telling someone to play WoW because they want an auction house doesn't even make sense. You are basically saying the auction house is the only thing that separates WoW from games that aren't WoW.
I played EQ for 11 years after launch. I experienced the pre-Bazaar days and the post-Bazaar days extensively. I personally do not want to go back to the days of spamming chat macros to try to sell stuff. Furthermore, I do not understand this argument that an auction house takes away from the social interaction of the game. In the probably hundreds of hours I spent in North Freeport selling stuff (that's where trading was done on my server), I could probably count on one hand the amount of people I said more than two sentences to. The rest of the time I was watching TV, playing another game, or reading while periodically checking my chat window. That isn't very social to me. That's the complete opposite of social.
Now, I do have one concern about auction houses that has nothing to do with that. In my experience, auction houses almost always lead to a buyer's market. The reason for this is if someone wants to sell an item, they will always search for the item on the AH first, and then post it for sale slightly cheaper than the cheapest one currently listed. The next person wanting to sell the item does the same thing, and so on. But honestly, I think the best way to combat this is simply to control the rate of flow of items into the game, or putting something like a tribute feature into the game where people can do stuff with their old items other than selling them.
If you take another look you may notice the people who said the words "WoW clone" said it would be that way if the pebble led to an avalanche. That is, AH (the pebble) is followed by various other "easycore" ideas to make things fair for everyone. Appease the people who don't like trade, and then you appease the people who don't like looking for groups. You add an automated grouping system. Then you need to appease the guys who don't like grinding, and you add easy leveling systems like those found in the non-vanilla eq servers. So on and so forth until the avalanche has fallen, and you have your "WoW Clone".
Of course as I have pointed out before, so long as VR kept their desocialization to trade only, it wouldn't break the game=)
Also, old style trade is not social just like you said. It just gives opportunities to be social. Where one person never talked, I know I made all sorts of business relationships and even friendships based on trade.
For example, noobs would collect small things like pelts or bone chips for me. I'd buy for a fair price, and then I'd resell it all for more. They knew I did. They didn't mind because they could immediately get rid of the things they wanted to sell, like with an auction house. They actually knew me and when they approached the tunnel would shoot me a tell and we'd chat.
You can be just as anti social with say, old style grouping. And yet that's what we will be doing in Pantheon, for the sake of the few who do take the time building relationships, rather than focusing on the "I'm spamming lfg macros" part. You don't need to like it, It's just that Pantheon wants to provide people those opportunities for socialization.
I agree with your worry about the auction house and luckily Pantheon has those safeguards planned out already.