I hope to see a good amount of traps and locks in dangerous places like dungeons. Locks should be open-able by different means: Rogues could use pick lock skill, some casters could have a (reagent using) unlock spell. Maybe fighters could just open some closed doors/chests through brute force? What I mean is, not everyone should be able to open a lock, but there must be enough classes capable of doing this, so that groups can progress through a dungeon even if they don't have the "optimal" class for doing this.
Traps in dungeons should definitely exist: false floors, pikes or darts coming out of the walls if you step in the wrong place, or mobs spawning if you ring an innocent looking bell... :)
Trapped chests are also nice (especially mobs mimicking chests :) Don't make it so that every chest is trapped however...that takes the surprise out of it. Also, traps in lower level dungeons should IMO not be fatal however (for example a trap floor which lets you fall to your death). Those are the places where you (hopefully) learn to recognize/evade traps.
I love the idea of locks in games. From chests to locked doors they make a great immersive aspect to the game.
Perhaps it is from all my years of playing Elder Scrolls games, but I don't think only rogue character should have a lock pick skill. I liked how anyone could do it if they put the time and effort into it and I would rather it be more like an Elder Scrolls game as a sort of mini game rather than just a role of the dice number crunching skill.
Traps in dungeons are amazing! I loved having to counter traps or figure out puzzles in dungeons or even overland zones. I know in Rift that they had one puzzle in each over world zone that people had to figure out. A very cool concept and I very much enjoyed trying to find the location of the puzzle and then figuring it out.
I also think that traps and locks and such greatly increase the feeling of being in an actual world. i dont really like the idea of everything just being there for the taking as long as you can kill a few monsters. i want to see secret doors and locked rooms, some with loot and some with... surprises, also like others have stated i would like to see more than just the rogue class being able to do this. maybe even giving some races the ability to deal with those things, tho not in an all encompassing manner like the rogue or ranger. since halflings are forest dwellers maybe they could detect and disarm traps, but not be able to pick locks, just this kinda thinking.
Sarim said:I hope to see a good amount of traps and locks in dangerous places like dungeons. Locks should be open-able by different means: Rogues could use pick lock skill, some casters could have a (reagent using) unlock spell. Maybe fighters could just open some closed doors/chests through brute force? What I mean is, not everyone should be able to open a lock, but there must be enough classes capable of doing this, so that groups can progress through a dungeon even if they don't have the "optimal" class for doing this.
Traps in dungeons should definitely exist: false floors, pikes or darts coming out of the walls if you step in the wrong place, or mobs spawning if you ring an innocent looking bell... :)
Trapped chests are also nice (especially mobs mimicking chests :) Don't make it so that every chest is trapped however...that takes the surprise out of it. Also, traps in lower level dungeons should IMO not be fatal however (for example a trap floor which lets you fall to your death). Those are the places where you (hopefully) learn to recognize/evade traps.
Yeah, options and multiple ways to open/disarm are needed so a group/raid doesn;t get stuck and require one class, blocking progression along the way. It does add depth to the classes that can do it though and I like your traps example, possibly multiple paths and a trap or lock could lead to a short cut or bonus loot room etc. so it is not necessary but a nice bonus if you can access it :)
Aggelos said:I love the idea of locks in games. From chests to locked doors they make a great immersive aspect to the game.
Perhaps it is from all my years of playing Elder Scrolls games, but I don't think only rogue character should have a lock pick skill. I liked how anyone could do it if they put the time and effort into it and I would rather it be more like an Elder Scrolls game as a sort of mini game rather than just a role of the dice number crunching skill.
Traps in dungeons are amazing! I loved having to counter traps or figure out puzzles in dungeons or even overland zones. I know in Rift that they had one puzzle in each over world zone that people had to figure out. A very cool concept and I very much enjoyed trying to find the location of the puzzle and then figuring it out.
Yeah, I am with you there Aggelos, I am also a huge Elder scrolls fan and being a Rogue main, this just makes me happy having locks to pick, traps to disarm etc. :)
Gawd said:I also think that traps and locks and such greatly increase the feeling of being in an actual world. i dont really like the idea of everything just being there for the taking as long as you can kill a few monsters. i want to see secret doors and locked rooms, some with loot and some with... surprises, also like others have stated i would like to see more than just the rogue class being able to do this. maybe even giving some races the ability to deal with those things, tho not in an all encompassing manner like the rogue or ranger. since halflings are forest dwellers maybe they could detect and disarm traps, but not be able to pick locks, just this kinda thinking.
Exactly, they add depth to the world and the classes that can interact with them, also adding to class interdependence but they need to be done properly for everything to balance :)
Kilsin said:Yeah, options and multiple ways to open/disarm are needed so a group/raid doesn;t get stuck and require one class, blocking progression along the way. It does add depth to the classes that can do it though and I like your traps example, possibly multiple paths and a trap or lock could lead to a short cut or bonus loot room etc. so it is not necessary but a nice bonus if you can access it :)
Perfect example of this was Blackwing Lair in Classic World of Warcraft. There was a part of the raid encounter where there were spitting fire traps and without a rogue in the raid you weren’t able to get through the room. Now with 40 man raid limit there was a very high chance of this but still it was something only one class could do.
Don't get me wrong by the end of Cataclysm they homogenized all the classes that almost everyone could do anything. I do not think that should be the case but there should be at least 2 to 3 options for any given thing a raid could need.
Do you need a trap disarmed? You would need either a rogue, ranger, or Halfling (racial skill).
Do you need a damage buff like Heroism or Bloodlust in World of Warcraft for a burn phase? Bring a wizard, shaman, Assassin.
Those are just examples and not saying any of those things are in the game but if you limit an ability to one class that will force people to have to bring one of those or perhaps even roll an alternate character to get by one part and then swap out to their main character to complete the rest of the raid.
Having to do those work around are not fun. I know some people like alts but I for one will be playing my Human Crusader and only have a crafting alt and perhaps an alt to play with my wife because she has limited time to play.
Agree with the above. Locks and Traps are vital mainstays of the RPG genre. They turn boring dungeon crawls into an adventures. Adding these mechanisms to a game increases player immersion and strategy by providing more interactions and giving players a greater sense of control. In my opinion , the idea is to add options not introduce roadblocks.
Do I use my last lockpick to open a door leading further into the dungeon or do I look for an NPC who may drop the key?
Should a party take the longer path guarded by sentries or try to manuver through the shorter route fortified with traps?
As mentioned above there should be several class/race/utility abilities players can obtain to help circumvent these obstacles. Noting, not all mechanisms can be bypassed and not every ability will have the same effectiveness.
Mages may have detect hidden door, but would still require someone with sufficient lockpicking skill to open it.
Disabling traps should require an appropiate response depending on their nature, i.e mechanical or arcane.
These mechanisms should be implemented with reason. Not every door should be locked and not every chest trapped, but as you delve deeper and level higher the risk and reward should increase.
I am personally partial to simple traps. I really enjoyed the drop traps that drop you deeper into a dungeon, where you are pretty much going to die due to the mobs most likely being a higher level if you don't die from the fall first. No skill or anything but it iit provides ncentives for learning the zone better as well.
I liked how Elder Scrolls Online did locked chests until I found out later that lockpicks were plentiful and it just became a minor annoyance to open the thousands of chests within one zone.
I also liked how an old MUD handled locked chests. You had to seek out the services of a thief with a high enough lockpicking skill. This often meant a trip back to town because people often gathered in the temple to rest to clear their mind so they can gain XP at 100% rate again. Thieves would make lockpicking their top 3 skills to rank up because people often pay or tip them for this service. I made lots of friends and plenty of coin to purchase the highest quality lockpicks. It was painful when they broke but totally worth it.
zaktaros said:I liked how Elder Scrolls Online did locked chests until I found out later that lockpicks were plentiful and it just became a minor annoyance to open the thousands of chests within one zone.
I also liked how an old MUD handled locked chests. You had to seek out the services of a thief with a high enough lockpicking skill. This often meant a trip back to town because people often gathered in the temple to rest to clear their mind so they can gain XP at 100% rate again. Thieves would make lockpicking their top 3 skills to rank up because people often pay or tip them for this service. I made lots of friends and plenty of coin to purchase the highest quality lockpicks. It was painful when they broke but totally worth it.
That was just a problem with ESO making them too plentiful. If they added a lockpick skill that anyone could use, lockpicks should be rare/expensive and you would need to seek out "shady" vendors to replenish your stock.
Beyond just lockpicking/spell casting to access doors and chests, have an NPC drop a NO DROP/NO RENT (key vanishes when you log out) key that will open a specific lock. The Gnoll Commander could drop a key to the Barracks wing of their fortress, the Goblin QuarterMaster could drop a key to a check in the armory that could have a rare item in it. Some generic doors that lead into separate wings of a dungeon could drop off a specific guard that patrols near that door/gate. This way you can either bring a rogue and go right through the gate/door by lockpick or a wizard casting LockBreak to unlock you could, after some period of time, obtain a key as a drop. Not a guaranteed drop but not rare either.
Befallen, in EQ1 had this where a specific NPC on each floor would drop a key so you could access the next level. But if you had a rogue you could pick the lock. Higher levels could just drop down the well and go right to the bottom. It is about options...choices.
I think they're important, but I think equally important is how they are implemented to not feel forced or gimmicky.
Like Vandraad - I like multiple paths/options in a Dungeon that would add to interdepence rather than mechanics feeling forced simply because a rogue exists and making the dungeon feel linear. So, I'll share my thoughts with an example:
Example: How to open Trapped/Locked Chest - could work for a Door as well.
1. Rogue Disarm Trap/Lock-Pick. Rogues also have the best (only) innate ability to identify the trap/type of lock/etc.
2. Caster Disarm Trap / and perhaps one has a spell Unlock, rogue not high enough skill. Perhaps caster spell is tied due a spell skill, or specialization, and they may not be able to unlock either. Or perhaps there are magical locks that only spells could unlock, or a rogue would need magical lockpicks.
3. Caster/Rogue Disarm Trap / Warrior could "bash" chest, which would be based off STR. Perhaps, taking it a step further to not rule out the need for rogues, the warrior damaging the chest could potentially damage/destroy the loot as well - Broken Glass Crown, etc.
4. Warrior Bashes chest - STR based. Triggers trap, and perhaps like above, damages potential loot.
5. Key drop from mob - avoids trap due to it being the appropriate key and can unlock/open chest.
6. Rogue Pickpockets Key versus lockpicking (maybe not high enough skill/good enough lockpicking).
7. Perhaps there's some alchemy tradeskill (shaman) that allows you to pour acid on the lock, which still triggers the trap
8. A tinker could unscrew the hinges? Still triggering trap
9. Or perhaps, it's a small chest, and someone is able to carry it? With encumberance perhaps and takes it to a rogue to lockpick back at town?
Just some spitball ideas, but I'd rather there be depth to all aspects of gameplay rather than ideas implemented solely in order for a class to feel needed which ultimately feel forced.
If VR wants to introduce damage causing traps (like spikes shoot out of wall), having them hard-coded into a zone will quickly render all that hard work of design and whatnot pointless because everyone will quickly know that stepping right there will trigger the trap. Whatever maps players use will have the trap identified.
If you want traps, you have to make them dynamic, mobile or have the trigger mechanism be different each time. If the trigger is a tile in the floor of some hallway, over time it should be a different tile. Yes, we'll know there is a trap there but we'll never quite know where the trigger is from one day to the next so the sense of danger never really goes away.
Some traps should be fatal 100% of the time. Some traps should do just that..trap you. A giant cage drops or cage walls spring up surrounding you. That then triggers waves of NPCs which come running and you have to fight them off. Failure to kill them all results in your capture (knocked unconscious) and removal to separate cells in a deeper section of the dungeon. You now have to get out of your cells by some means (are you all close enough that a group teleport would catch everyone? Do you wait to see if the rogue in the party can escape and pick all the locks before the guards return? Do you call for help in the hopes some group in the zone fights their way down to rescue you (killing the Kobold Jailer and getting the keys to the prison cells?)
The point being traps that are static and unchanging quickly become a non-issue and having content become a non-issue is always bad.
I remember falling through a fake floor trap in Befallen. I don't remember how long I was stuck down there but it was miserable and I ended up dying. Luckily a friend was able to help me get my corpse back. I would love to have traps like this in Pantheon. Once that happened I never looked at befallen the same way again. Falling into a trap like that sucked but it made for a great experience and changed how I percieved the environment, if the name Befallen wasn't ominous enough. I also think locks add to the experience in a way that allows certain classes to gain access to locked areas in dungeons/cities/wherever. Need to get behind that door? Find a wizard or a rogue (or whoever can pick locks).
I like locks and traps, but what i didnt like is, if wirth a group withour a lock picking class, you got stuck on a crawl. If there was a scenario like Charasis or Tower of frozenshadow where you could grab the keys to the next level as you went along, that would be good, because then going back we could make room for the rogue if we wanted to short cut to the other areas.
But I also like the ideas mentioned here, like the putt-putt golf route; where one hole has two paths, one more challenging and narrow or hard, and one still filled with obstacles, but broad and with more room to make small shots, instead of having to make one perfect shot at the goal.
I also really liked Raidans idea of taking the chest to a rogue, maybe in town, to open and ogle the spoils. it opens some role play possibilities, the group heading back into town with a chest, maybe heading to a inn, grabbing drinks, waiting for the rogue to arrive; negotiating with the rogue for a price or something and then opening to see what is inside.
Love the ideas in here, letting like 2 or 3 classes have the ability to open a lock, but changing the flavor. I also really miss traps and I LOVE finding one in Skyrim, disarming it, and laughing at the bandits that thought they were so smart.
I do NOT love finding mimicks. Those unholy creatures of disguist will FEEL MY WRATH (they should totally be in game as they freak me out and would love to hit them with a very large club).
1. I think trap finding and lock picking are a must mechanic for the rogue.
2. I think that you could have a few rogue like classes that can adequately do it, but I don't like the idea of having a warrior to bash it down, etc. If we are going to make the rogue special in this way, let him be special.
3. I more like the idea of various kinds of fake walls and locked doors, and have them spawn like mobs. Like one day you walk up to a wall and it has an arcane seal on it and you need a wizard or a mage, the next day it might have a lock and you need a roguelike class. Then on another day it might have a huge wooden bar that you need a warrior to bust through. Have multiple areas and have the need for that area be random and rotate. That would also prevent camping of these areas.
I love them and hate them. :) Love the depth they add to a game, hate when they block me from my goal. ;)
As has been stated many times, as long as there are several classes that can identify traps and open locks, they are great additions to a game.
While off the main topic, but tying into the premise of class abilities, it is important that abilities be shared between just enough classes that a small group is not hindered from advancement due to lacking a necessary ability. While not all classes should be proficient at certain abilites (IE: Cleric better healers than Druid, Shaman, Paladins), but a group could make due with the correct strategies and smart play. Missing one specific class should never be detrimental to forming a group, and that group having an enjoyable play session.