shihiro said:Many posts abound that state that the main focus of Pantheon is PvE. While they have said there may be some PvP, it will not be the main priority of the development team or of the game.
As Shihiro said, we have addressed this many times and even state it quite clearly in our FAQ page found here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/#q36
Other than what we have already stated, we won't be discussing any more details until we are further along with development and at a point where we have PvE where we want it to be and can look at how much interest people have in PvP and what options we may have for a PvP server, but this discussion is too far off to be bringing it up now.
just my couple of cents - looking forward to no PVP so that the game and classes can be balanced around PVE and not PVP. My view is that it is the PVP balancing or forced factional conflict (ESO), and battlegrounds that have no value that cause games to struggle.
*Edit: and i am someone who always pvps in every game i play in battlegrounds and open world.
*apologies Kilsin - missed point re no discussion yet :(
You guys can openly discuss PvP in the other PvP threads or create a new one if you do not see one that covers your topic, this one was created with the intention of discussing PvP implementation into Pantheon, which we cannot officially speak about yet and any discussion among the community on this subject would be wild guesses and speculation, which as I am sure you will agree, isn't usually very healthy. We are not open to public idea's or feedback yet either as I stated above, it is too early and we have our focus on other more important parts of development currently.
The thread needs to stay on topic without inciting unrest or arguments over opinions, which are very common in PvP threads within a PvE centric game forum. So with that in mind, feel free to discuss this subject without going off topic or breaching any of the forum guidelines, as I am sure you can all guess what will happen if anything does head down that path of evil forum behaviour ;)
I really like PvP, but almost every implementation of it I have tried so far in an MMO has involved major compromises to both the PvE and PvP experiences. Or it starts out OK, but never quite gets the ongoing dev attention it needs, and it eventually gets worse and worse until it becomes a joke.
Honestly, VR are doing the right thing by focusing on PvE, and then maybe at some point down the road revisiting the idea. And if eventually they decide to implement it, they can take all the time in the world to ensure that it is a) implemented well, and b) does not compromise the PvE side of gameplay.
The focus of an MMO should always be to make a fun game first. The problem with every PvP mmo is that, aside from PvP, the game is shallow and uninteresting. I'm personally glad VR are approaching Pantheon with the PvE first mindset. That was how EQ was done, and to this day remains my favorite PvP of any MMO that I've played. There wasn't a great deal of balancing necessary (though it probably seemed like a lot to developers in those "early years"). They tweaked resists, nerfed charms and fears, and basically just flipped the switch. We had a blast and I hope it can be repeated with Pantheon.
Liav said:Yeah, fair enough. I'm aware Pantheon is a PvE game but I figured it was worth discussing. That said, I wasn't aware of the stance they've taken where they can't discuss it yet, but that's fine. I'll remake this thread at a more appropriate time, probably during beta.
It isn't really a stance, we just don't have anything to talk about because we are building the game first, which is PvE based. We haven't even started to think about PvP yet and we won't until we get the foundations of the main game down first, so I just meant that we don't talk about it because it doesn't exist yet and we have nothing to say, other sections of the game are still being developed but once they are done, we will be happy to speak about PvP and what interest people may have in it, what servers, what rulesets etc. but that is a long way off.
I think once we get through pre-alpha and alpha, we will have a better idea and a lot more community members talking about the game and their preferences, so Beta would be a good place to re-open this discussion if there isn't one already created by someone who beat you to it ;)
Kilsin said:It isn't really a stance, we just don't have anything to talk about because we are building the game first, which is PvE based. We haven't even started to think about PvP yet and we won't until we get the foundations of the main game down first, so I just meant that we don't talk about it because it doesn't exist yet and we have nothing to say, other sections of the game are still being developed but once they are done, we will be happy to speak about PvP and what interest people may have in it, what servers, what rulesets etc. but that is a long way off.
I think once we get through pre-alpha and alpha, we will have a better idea and a lot more community members talking about the game and their preferences, so Beta would be a good place to re-open this discussion if there isn't one already created by someone who beat you to it ;)
Makes sense, I'm cool with that. If someone beats me to it that's even better because it shows a broader range of interest. :)
As much as I love PvP and bettering a human, I love a good PvE more... Would rather have a solid PvE based game, with tough and unique AI encounters throughout, than a game that tries to cater to both. I am like most people here in these forums, we fear what a PvP based community can do to a solid PvE game. Balancing both has never been an easy task and I am sure will be the same for Pantheon.
PvE first, PvP at a later insertion...
Valith said: If it's worth anything I personally started my MMO career on a PVE server and although fun I wasn't captivated enough to hold my subscription. When I found out that PVP servers were available, and the thought of being able to slay other characters, I immediately booted the game back up. PVP is essential for me in some way shape or form and I agree, the vanilla game should be fleshed out first, but please be sure to include the PVP ruleset for those of us who are bloodthirsty :D
I feel exactly the same way. I hit 50 in classic EQ pretty early on and was in one of the two first raid guilds on Tarew Marr. There were quite a few nights of racing to the very limited raid targets and planes, and I also recall more than once standing in front of the plane of fear portal with my guild just for another guild to leapfrog us.
I was unaware that PvP was even an option at that time, but after hearing about it from a friend and seeing the growing competition for dungeons and raid targets, I tried out Rallos Zek. It instantly became my favorite of the two servers and though I continued to log on the PvE server from time to time, there was no comparing the very rigid system of rules and retribution that existed on Rallos to that of Tarew. The entire experience was far richer and more enjoyable in just about every way.
I haven't played a "PvE" server since.
I'm pro PvP. All the way. I totally want to kill you.
However, I don't want to kill you in battlegrounds (instances) and then see you in town without worry. I don't want to kill you in special forts and/or territories that are "PvP areas" within a PvE world and then go be safe in some PvE area. I don't want dev resources to go to special PvP gear sets, and PvP balancing, and PvP stats, and PvP areas, and PvP whatever else... Oh, no. I want to kill you organically, out in the world, when/if I need/want to. Maybe while you're raiding. Or crafting. Or trying to get that epic. Or just hanging around by your house. I want you to try to kill me, too. Unless you're my friend/ally. Then, we can team up and rule the world. :)
I really just want the Pantheon team to devote all their resources to building a kick-a** PvE world. Then, I want them to pick a server and turn on PvP. That's it. (There may have to be a few tweaks to that rule-set so PvP doesn't do PvE damage to players, some sort of release to bind/home/guild to prevent camping, etc., but it should be minimal.) No bells. No whistles. And definitely not for the faint of heart.
That's the server I want to call home...
:)
I wrote a little article on how I think PVP should be done (won't share it unless I'm giving the okay, not sure how they feel about outside links), but here's the gist of it:
I think pvp and pve should inhabit the same servers and be fairly available to all. One of the things WoW did right, I think, was contaigous pvp. If you flagged you were attackable. If someone attacked you they became flagged. If someone HELPED (buffed/healed) a pvp flagged person THEY became flagged. Open world pvp was common and controlled via this system.
I saw more people and had more friends pulled in to PVP because of this than I can count. You see a friend/faction member/guild member get jumped, chances are you're going in too. It injects fresh blood (no pun) and introduces people to pvp that may otherwise not have tried it.
When you have separate pve and pve servers all it does is breed contempt for the other side. I find, in general, the pvp community turns quite toxic when left on their own sever. Part of it is the competative nature, part of it is seeing the same faces in pvp over and over, part of it is lower pvp population over time leading to the players feeling neglected by the devs. PVE servers end up lower quality PVP players (again, in general) because it's confined to a few people doing mini's/arenas. It also often spills over in to forums where one side complains any time the other gets something geared towards them. Unfortunatly that tends to be PVPers complaining because the game is PVE centric.
Almost all of this can be alleviated by integrated PVP and PVE servers. It also opens up a HUGE amount of senarios for groups and raids. Three examples from my article: Dungeon where there's a more round about, PVE way, to get to a boss or a more direct PVP way. Pick your poison and load your group/raid accordingly. You may be successful going the pvp way but you may also get bogged down in a long pvp fight and those that went the PVE way get there faster... choices.
The other is designing dungeons as basically a mini-pvp tournament where the winner gets the boss fight and richer rewards while the losers get a lesser boss and lesser rewards.
You could have open world area control that gives a faction or a guild a bonus.
This would be in addition to pvp arenas,minis and so on.
I really think separate pvp servers is a huge missed opportunity for both players and devs.
Canno said:The other is designing dungeons as basically a mini-pvp tournament where the winner gets the boss fight and richer rewards while the losers get a lesser boss and lesser rewards.
As someone who dislikes PvP, this is a line I feel should not be crossed. Don't disminish the PvE experience by putting it behing a PvP wall.
Canno said:I wrote a little article on how I think PVP should be done (won't share it unless I'm giving the okay, not sure how they feel about outside links), but here's the gist of it:
I think pvp and pve should inhabit the same servers and be fairly available to all. One of the things WoW did right, I think, was contaigous pvp. If you flagged you were attackable. If someone attacked you they became flagged. If someone HELPED (buffed/healed) a pvp flagged person THEY became flagged. Open world pvp was common and controlled via this system.
I saw more people and had more friends pulled in to PVP because of this than I can count. You see a friend/faction member/guild member get jumped, chances are you're going in too. It injects fresh blood (no pun) and introduces people to pvp that may otherwise not have tried it.
When you have separate pve and pve servers all it does is breed contempt for the other side. I find, in general, the pvp community turns quite toxic when left on their own sever. Part of it is the competative nature, part of it is seeing the same faces in pvp over and over, part of it is lower pvp population over time leading to the players feeling neglected by the devs. PVE servers end up lower quality PVP players (again, in general) because it's confined to a few people doing mini's/arenas. It also often spills over in to forums where one side complains any time the other gets something geared towards them. Unfortunatly that tends to be PVPers complaining because the game is PVE centric.
Almost all of this can be alleviated by integrated PVP and PVE servers. It also opens up a HUGE amount of senarios for groups and raids. Three examples from my article: Dungeon where there's a more round about, PVE way, to get to a boss or a more direct PVP way. Pick your poison and load your group/raid accordingly. You may be successful going the pvp way but you may also get bogged down in a long pvp fight and those that went the PVE way get there faster... choices.
The other is designing dungeons as basically a mini-pvp tournament where the winner gets the boss fight and richer rewards while the losers get a lesser boss and lesser rewards.
You could have open world area control that gives a faction or a guild a bonus.
This would be in addition to pvp arenas,minis and so on.
I really think separate pvp servers is a huge missed opportunity for both players and devs.
Have you even read anything about Pantheon or know anything about its targeted demographic?
The very first time I am "forced" to PvP is the day I uninstall the game from my comp
and yeah forced even means having to PvP for some quest or any other reason...If I cant play the entire game, all features, all levels, all activities without having to do PvP than let me know now.
And PvP doesnt turn Toxic because of the competitive nature of PvP players...its because PvP players are toxic
This is one subject that just irrates me to no end...a million and one pvp games out there and yet now the PvPers want to come in and tell us how bad PvE sucks and the only good players are PvPers because nothing is like fighting an actual human. But every instnace of PvP Ive seen is high level griefers killing Npcs, ganking low level players and basically just being total wankers. Nah you can keep your PvP on WoW or where ever, dont have any use for it here
Edit: Also, the very first time I see the game balanced for PvP im out too
Sevens said:Have you even read anything about Pantheon or know anything about its targeted demographic?
The very first time I am "forced" to PvP is the day I uninstall the game from my comp
and yeah forced even means having to PvP for some quest or any other reason...If I cant play the entire game, all features, all levels, all activities without having to do PvP than let me know now.
And PvP doesnt turn Toxic because of the competitive nature of PvP players...its because PvP players are toxic
This is one subject that just irrates me to no end...a million and one pvp games out there and yet now the PvPers want to come in and tell us how bad PvE sucks and the only good players are PvPers because nothing is like fighting an actual human. But every instnace of PvP Ive seen is high level griefers killing Npcs, ganking low level players and basically just being total wankers. Nah you can keep your PvP on WoW or where ever, dont have any use for it here
Edit: Also, the very first time I see the game balanced for PvP im out too
PvE players are toxic.
Checkmate.
Liav said:Sevens said:Have you even read anything about Pantheon or know anything about its targeted demographic?
The very first time I am "forced" to PvP is the day I uninstall the game from my comp
and yeah forced even means having to PvP for some quest or any other reason...If I cant play the entire game, all features, all levels, all activities without having to do PvP than let me know now.
And PvP doesnt turn Toxic because of the competitive nature of PvP players...its because PvP players are toxic
This is one subject that just irrates me to no end...a million and one pvp games out there and yet now the PvPers want to come in and tell us how bad PvE sucks and the only good players are PvPers because nothing is like fighting an actual human. But every instnace of PvP Ive seen is high level griefers killing Npcs, ganking low level players and basically just being total wankers. Nah you can keep your PvP on WoW or where ever, dont have any use for it here
Edit: Also, the very first time I see the game balanced for PvP im out too
PvE players are toxic.
Checkmate.
On this subject...yes I am
Every couple of months some PvP fanboy comes around crying about how this game will never survive if PvP isnt included *Yawn*
seen every pvp argument and they are all full of BS
This is and will remain a PVE game....as stated by Brad McQuaid, VRI and the Game tennants themselves; so please stop trying to post about how wonderful PvP is, how needed it is and how wanted it is (because we all secretly want to PvP we just dont know it yet) Oh yeah also how players dont like pvp because theyre scared, or they suck...you know basically just Carebears. Isnt that the PvPers derogatory term for PvEers?
Edit: Kilsin I understand I come across very antagonistic in these post..and understand totally if you feel its needed to delete them
Sylee said:I'm pro PvP. All the way. I totally want to kill you.
However, I don't want to kill you in battlegrounds (instances) and then see you in town without worry. I don't want to kill you in special forts and/or territories that are "PvP areas" within a PvE world and then go be safe in some PvE area. I don't want dev resources to go to special PvP gear sets, and PvP balancing, and PvP stats, and PvP areas, and PvP whatever else... Oh, no. I want to kill you organically, out in the world, when/if I need/want to. Maybe while you're raiding. Or crafting. Or trying to get that epic. Or just hanging around by your house. I want you to try to kill me, too. Unless you're my friend/ally. Then, we can team up and rule the world. :)
I really just want the Pantheon team to devote all their resources to building a kick-a** PvE world. Then, I want them to pick a server and turn on PvP. That's it. (There may have to be a few tweaks to that rule-set so PvP doesn't do PvE damage to players, some sort of release to bind/home/guild to prevent camping, etc., but it should be minimal.) No bells. No whistles. And definitely not for the faint of heart.That's the server I want to call home...
:)
This guy gets it...well said
Sevens said:On this subject...yes I am
Every couple of months some PvP fanboy comes around crying about how this game will never survive if PvP isnt included *Yawn*
seen every pvp argument and they are all full of BS
This is and will remain a PVE game....as stated by Brad McQuaid, VRI and the Game tennants themselves; so please stop trying to post about how wonderful PvP is, how needed it is and how wanted it is (because we all secretly want to PvP we just dont know it yet) Oh yeah also how players dont like pvp because theyre scared, or they suck...you know basically just Carebears. Isnt that the PvPers derogatory term for PvEers?
Edit: Kilsin I understand I come across very antagonistic in these post..and understand totally if you feel its needed to delete them
Wow, you acknowledged that you're a tool and a hypocrite in the same post. I'm impressed.