Tuhart said:Too much to comment on, so just one thing in particular.
UI - I would prefer for the devs to give us everything, flying numbers, critical hits , auras, time outs, everything on screen and then the option to turn things off you dont like, so your screen can be as full or as empty as you like, same with the chat , damage info.
Provide everything and let the players use it to personnalise the look of the game to suit their tastes.
This has typically been the best way to handle it, a lot of people do want that information and don't care about immersion during raids/groups and other times they do want to lose themselves in immersion and turn it off, myself included, but having a toggle option works for everyone, those who want to see coloured numbers spam their screen and chat can and it won't affect those who have it turned off and don't want to see those numbers.
Everyone wins! ;)
Kilsin said:This has typically been the best way to handle it, a lot of people do want that information and don't care about immersion during raids/groups and other times they do want to lose themselves in immersion and turn it off, myself included, but having a toggle option works for everyone, those who want to see coloured numbers spam their screen and chat can and it won't affect those who have it turned off and don't want to see those numbers.
Everyone wins! ;)
I'm good with toggleable options, as long as the information that is toggleable doesn't offer some sort of competitive advantange. Very similar to the previous discussions we've had here on the advantages of 1st versus 3rd person views. But for basic UI elements such as floating text versus text in a chat box - that works for me.
Raidan said:Kilsin said:This has typically been the best way to handle it, a lot of people do want that information and don't care about immersion during raids/groups and other times they do want to lose themselves in immersion and turn it off, myself included, but having a toggle option works for everyone, those who want to see coloured numbers spam their screen and chat can and it won't affect those who have it turned off and don't want to see those numbers.
Everyone wins! ;)
I'm good with toggleable options, as long as the information that is toggleable doesn't offer some sort of competitive advantange. Very similar to the previous discuss we've had here on the advantages of 1st versus 3rd person views. But for basic UI elements such as floating text versus text in a chat box - that works for me.
It doesn't man, it's basically what everyone will see in combat chat tab anyway, just in floating coloured numbers, and I am not saying that we will even have this in Pantheon, I just wanted to say that I don't think it harms anyone at all if there is a toggle available, VG had this and a lot of people find that information useful, while a lot find it annoying :)
I would add one thing. I would like features like "flying numbers" turned off by default - AND - have a very clear, very easy to understand UI configuration panel for turning those options on... perhaps even with the ability to demonstrate in game what that selection will do when you select it.
Games like EQII... the config panels were atrocious.
It should be VERY simple. Something like:
Option: Toggle floating combat text (On or Off)
Description: This toggle will result in text appearing on your screen that indicates how much damage you did, healing you did, etc... as well as letting you know if the hit was a crit, or missed, etc... when it is in the ON position.
People should be able to set what they want to see in seconds, not minutes. (or so I think!)
Wandidar said:I would add one thing. I would like features like "flying numbers" turned off by default - AND - have a very clear, very easy to understand UI configuration panel for turning those options on... perhaps even with the ability to demonstrate in game what that selection will do when you select it.
Games like EQII... the config panels were attrocious.
It should be VERY simple. Something like:
Option: Toggle floating combat text (On or Off)
Description: This toggle will result in text appearing on your screen that indicates how much damage you did, healing you did, etc... as well as letting you know if the hit was a crit, or missed, etc... when it is in the ON position.
People should be able to set what they want to see in seconds, not minutes. (or so I think!)
I disagree that it should be off by default. I'd rather see it on by default, just like most UI features. It makes for a more intuitive new-user experience.
That said, floating combat text might need some more robust options, like controlling what values you can and can't see. I don't care about my incoming heals, I just want to see my massive outgoing crit numbers, for instance.
My logic is as follows:
Having them turned OFF by default doesn't present players with something they DON'T want to see... i.e. the won't have to go turn OFF stuff. People who want them ON can then go do that.
Here though, might be an interesting compromise: In the same way you have "Character config" when you create a new character - have "UI config" when you first launch the game. Let people set up their UI options before they get in the game, and then allow them to change their choices later.
Wandidar said:My logic is as follows:
Having them turned OFF by default doesn't present players with something they DON'T want to see... i.e. the won't have to go turn OFF stuff. People who want them ON can then go do that.
Here though, might be an interesting compromise: In the same way you have "Character config" when you create a new character - have "UI config" when you first launch the game. Let people set up their UI options before they get in the game, and then allow them to change their choices later.
Well, the problem I foresee is that Pantheon is inevitably going to end up being the "first MMO" for a great many people.
Presenting them with a huge config menu the moment they load up the game would be a little overwhelming for the ignorant. On the other hand, having a ton of UI features off by default might let a bunch of people play the game ignorant of the fact that these features even exist.
A good compromise could be just having a window pop up saying "Press to edit your User Interface settings at any time." This avoids overwhelming people while not depriving them of a lot of the game's features.
Wandidar said:I suspect that Pantheon will be more filled with old EQ players, old Vanguard players, and curious players from other MMO's than "new MMO players" - unless, of course, it really takes off in the mainstream.
I agree, I just recall dozens of instances where I've had to help even veterans of some games with figuring out where some UI options are.
I guess it just depends, what is worse? You can:
Neither is ideal, but you can't satisfy everyone. What is the lesser of two evils, bias aside?
I also prefer things to be "opt in" over "opt out." If your whole UI is insane and over the top, AND all on at the start, how is a new player supposed to know what's important and what isn't? If you start with 300 windows open, it's daunting and leaves someone saying "how the heck am I even supposed to see where I'm going?" You don't need high octane hifi HUDs at level 1. You need a health bar and a mana bar, and indication how to swing a sword. Let players learn to turn things on organically as needed and learn about features through socializing.
Still though, I maintain that part of what was awesome about EQ was how little information you started with and how "lost" you felt when starting out. I think a game like this needs to rekindle that. Start off with a rusty dagger and a note telling you some basic info. For god sake don't start the player out right next to the turn in NPC, and don't start them in a tutorial. If you start with gear, right next to a guild master, with a mini map and quest log up, exp bar, DPS meter, etc etc, and the guild master says "congratulations on your first quest of walking across the room, here's a reward for some reason" like most MMOS today, I'd say they missed the mark. Let players figure it out. Provide minimal information. The more info we have, the easier the game is imo, and I don't like easy. I want to be forced to remember things or write them down if I'm afraid I'll forget. I want to feel like I fell into a new world like I did in EQ, not like I'm sitting at my computer. There's more to challenge than just death penalties and HP. Challenge can also be defined as being limited to the information the game gives yout verses what you need to learn how to deduce.
The problem is that this is a complete strawman and that I never once advocated for this ridiculous over-the-top UI that you're suggesting.
I'm willing to drop the hyperbole if you are.
I don't think an MMO needs to have 75% of the screen real estate covered with stuff. I also don't think it needs to be completely bare.
Here is an example of my UI in EQ2.
I don't think this is excessive at all. That's maybe 20% of my screen taken up by UI pieces, which is extremely small compared to the tiny little box you got to see out of when EQ first came out and we were playing in 800x600. EQ's UI literally took up 75% of the playable screen real estate.
There is also something to be said for the bad things that can happen when a dev tries to provide you maximum information with minimal UI elements. For this I will point to EQII. I recall dev posts in beta where they were saying they wanted you to be able to see what was being cast just by watching the spells, not by looking at UI widgets, etc...
Well, the net impact of that - when combined with how over the top some of the spell effects were - is that in a raid situation, a lot of people turn those spell effects off. Why? Generally 1 of 2 reasons, or both.
Reason 1: Their PC can't handle it and the game chugs / stops graphically
Reason 2: Their display (even if their PC can handle it) looks like a a rainbow puked on their screen once everyone starts casting... twice.
The irony is that WoW, with it's billion and one add-ons that people often have cluttering up their screen had rather minimalistic, but cool looking and distinct spell effects. Even in the days of 40 man raids, you could easily know what was being cast, and by whom, just looking at the screen.
Wandidar said:There is also something to be said for the bad things that can happen when a dev tries to provide you maximum information with minimal UI elements. For this I will point to EQII. I recall dev posts in beta where they were saying they wanted you to be able to see what was being cast just by watching the spells, not by looking at UI widgets, etc...
Well, the net impact of that - when combined with how over the top some of the spell effects were - is that in a raid situation, a lot of people turn those spell effects off. Why? Generally 1 of 2 reasons, or both.
Reason 1: Their PC can't handle it and the game chugs / stops graphically
Reason 2: Their display (even if their PC can handle it) looks like a a rainbow puked on their screen once everyone starts casting... twice.
The irony is that WoW, with it's billion and one add-ons that people often have cluttering up their screen had rather minimalistic, but cool looking and distinct spell effects. Even in the days of 40 man raids, you could easily know what was being cast, and by whom, just looking at the screen.
Sure, however, there's also a lot of technical compromises that need to be made in order to have spell effects in raids without lagging.
The engine they're working with would have to be the most well-optimized engine on the face of the earth to not lag you during raids with how incredible it looks. I can almost guarantee that my i7 4790k will not be able to keep up and I'll have to tone down graphics for raids. I have no reason to think otherwise.
The low system requirements of WoW are among the top reasons why it became so popular. It was highly accessible even if you played on a toaster.
TL;DR: WoW's particle effects would probably look pretty weird in a game this pretty.
Liav said:Wandidar said:There is also something to be said for the bad things that can happen when a dev tries to provide you maximum information with minimal UI elements. For this I will point to EQII. I recall dev posts in beta where they were saying they wanted you to be able to see what was being cast just by watching the spells, not by looking at UI widgets, etc...
Well, the net impact of that - when combined with how over the top some of the spell effects were - is that in a raid situation, a lot of people turn those spell effects off. Why? Generally 1 of 2 reasons, or both.
Reason 1: Their PC can't handle it and the game chugs / stops graphically
Reason 2: Their display (even if their PC can handle it) looks like a a rainbow puked on their screen once everyone starts casting... twice.
The irony is that WoW, with it's billion and one add-ons that people often have cluttering up their screen had rather minimalistic, but cool looking and distinct spell effects. Even in the days of 40 man raids, you could easily know what was being cast, and by whom, just looking at the screen.
Sure, however, there's also a lot of technical compromises that need to be made in order to have spell effects in raids without lagging.
The engine they're working with would have to be the most well-optimized engine on the face of the earth to not lag you during raids with how incredible it looks. I can almost guarantee that my i7 4790k will not be able to keep up and I'll have to tone down graphics for raids. I have no reason to think otherwise.
The low system requirements of WoW are among the top reasons why it became so popular. It was highly accessible even if you played on a toaster.
TL;DR: WoW's particle effects would probably look pretty weird in a game this pretty.
You are missing my point.
My point is that SOE made an effort to have less UI by putting more information on the screen in the guise of spell effects, etc... so that people would "know what is going on" - much as many of us would like to see.
However - they did it in such a way that it proved very ineffective. Rather than those effects providing the player with useful information, the screen got so overblown with effects that it looked like a blob of color.
I'm not saying that WoW particle effects would work in Pantheon - I'm saying that they actually accomplished what EQ II said they wanted to do. You can know everything being cast - with all settings on max in WoW because the effects are small enough and distinct enough to allow it.
If EQ II had made their effects more in line with the way WoW did - from a "make them small and distinct" perspective, they would have accomplished their goal... you would have had actionable informatoin without needing UI elements to tell you what was going on.
Wandidar said:Well, the net impact of that - when combined with how over the top some of the spell effects were - is that in a raid situation, a lot of people turn those spell effects off. Why? Generally 1 of 2 reasons, or both.
OMG - GW2 and FFXIV:ARR - tank in those games and there is a chance you will go blind!
I didn't mean to drag the immersion chat into UI discussion. UIs are a very personal thing. For me the critical factor is that poor overcrowded UIs break my sense of immersion. If i have to be honest - i would want two UIs general exploration which would be much more minimalistic and a raid ui taht gave me some group orientated critical information.
Liav imo your linked UI is too much for me, as there is a lot of stat data that means nothing in combat. I tried to link a pre raid UI of mine but am having some issues with the pic link timing out :( i will try again shortly.
Even reviewing my own raid UIs i still see things that i would not want now. I guess, my needs are changing.
Short version, and what immediately comes to mind for me on immersion:
Death needs to mean something. I can never stress/plead that enough.
Night time needs to be DARK, where people wonder wtf the dev's were thinking... then go to complain in chat, and like any new player gets told they need to find a fire beetle eye, lantern, torch, etc. (I'd love for the light source to increase your aggro range on certain mobs, and for fire light sources it might shy animals away).
No symbols floating above heads. For the love of... that feature needs to die in games. It's been long enough, I agree with alot of others sentiments here that dev's can be more creative with getting someones attention than a bright ! ? etc.
Names floating above a head? I personally think it's better to have to get closer to something to see what it is, than seeing floating text before you even see the mob. Considering the whole darkness thing, should you see bright white text for an npc's name before you actually see the npc? I wanna be paranoid to begin with and looking frantically if I hear a skeleton cackle in the area.
I think wandidar nailed it with the frying pan example. Give us a game that has you glued to the screen, paying attention to your surroundings, not just watching tv while you have notifications ready to warn you. Hell that alone speaks volumes to the difference in games. Watching tv while playing wow was a normal thing for me, I want a real (immersive) game again.
Lokkan said:I think wandidar nailed it with the frying pan example. Give us a game that has you glued to the screen, paying attention to your surroundings, not just watching tv while you have notifications ready to warn you. Hell that alone speaks volumes to the difference in games. Watching tv while playing wow was a normal thing for me, I want a real (immersive) game again.
My entire gameplay experience in P99 involved me watching anime while an autohotkey macro mashed backstab for me.
Somehow I doubt you were watching TV while doing progression raid content in WoW. You're either lying, or you're superhuman.
Lokkan said:Night time needs to be DARK, where people wonder wtf the dev's were thinking... then go to complain in chat, and like any new player gets told they need to find a fire beetle eye, lantern, torch, etc. (I'd love for the light source to increase your aggro range on certain mobs, and for fire light sources it might shy animals away).
No symbols floating above heads. For the love of... that feature needs to die in games. It's been long enough, I agree with alot of others sentiments here that dev's can be more creative with getting someones attention than a bright ! ? etc.
Names floating above a head? I personally think it's better to have to get closer to something to see what it is, than seeing floating text before you even see the mob. Considering the whole darkness thing, should you see bright white text for an npc's name before you actually see the npc? I wanna be paranoid to begin with and looking frantically if I hear a skeleton cackle in the area.
I think wandidar nailed it with the frying pan example. Give us a game that has you glued to the screen, paying attention to your surroundings, not just watching tv while you have notifications ready to warn you. Hell that alone speaks volumes to the difference in games. Watching tv while playing wow was a normal thing for me, I want a real (immersive) game again.
bold and italics i agree.
Italics i understand in regards to questing/gathering as i used to zone out and do other things - generally shoot **** with guildies listen to music or watcha movie. Raiding however (expecially progression) i agree with Liav - not possible
Lying or superhuman? There's no inbetween? lol okay.
I played a Frost mage from the second I knew frostbolts snared. Any mmorpg player with experience saw the immediate appeal to knowing your main dmg spell snares - allowing you to kite anything that can be snared. I recall all the wipes due to retarded people in the guild that would not focus enough to do their jobs. And yes that was the top raiding guild on the server (not bragging by any means, just stating the fact).
I was the first GM for pvp on alliance side (not counting Fyrwinde, cuz they had a second person playing their account) but again no real achievement since it was mostly time restrictions that was required for the pvp ranks then.
I recall burning crusade and thinking the first time in slave pens seeing 5 (or was it 6?) mob pulls and thinking finally something that might seperate quality players. But people blew past the levels no problem and any difficulty disappeared. I remember doing heroics plenty. Those were always fun. Kiting the mobs that 1-shot everyone in the tiny hallways. It made for a stressful first few pulls for any new tank who didn't understand "I'm fine, really, consider it offtanking" now that was entertaining to do.
I quit when wrath of the lich king came out. But yes, first time doing something? Sure it did require some attention, but not your full attention. The game was too forgiving to be overly serious about your roles.
I played a monk in EQ. I was pulling, constantly. If my group did not have a mob to kill, I took it to mean I was doing my job poorly. Chain singles, one to kill right as the first dies, unless the group had CC to handle more, that was the goal, and omg was it fun running down those dungeon halls and bringing the rares back to camp.
These recent posts show one of the big problems with many mmos. Even in EQ, you had classes like rogue that basically play themselves, and classes like Bard that are very, very hard to play. I've said many times buy if ALL classes required the focus and player skill of the EQ bard, we'd all be better off for it. When your best abilities are innate (warrior mitigation in eq, auto attack for melee classes) or require pushing one button (backstab, flying kick, archery attack) it's hard to stay engaged. WoW actually had some great ideas, it was just too forgiving/easy.
A big part of immersion is that EVERY class requires active abilities to be functional, and that those abilities require some semblance of skill. I'd hate to see this game have an imbalance of class population because ranger or rogue are easy (and therefor OP) and tanks/healers require skill. Or, that there's no classes where their best abilities are innate helping them be favored (like I warriors have innate mitigation but crusader requires active play to be as good a tank, suddenly you only see people rolling warriors).
I know this hinges on class balance, but a class that requires your attention and skill to be viable is also an immersive class. Auto attack and clicking 2 buttons is not immersive.
Arksien said:These recent posts show one of the big problems with many mmos. Even in EQ, you had classes like rogue that basically play themselves, and classes like Bard that are very, very hard to play. I've said many times buy if ALL classes required the focus and player skill of the EQ bard, we'd all be better off for it. When your best abilities are innate (warrior mitigation in eq, auto attack for melee classes) or require pushing one button (backstab, flying kick, archery attack) it's hard to stay engaged. WoW actually had some great ideas, it was just too forgiving/easy.
A big part of immersion is that EVERY class requires active abilities to be functional, and that those abilities require some semblance of skill. I'd hate to see this game have an imbalance of class population because ranger or rogue are easy (and therefor OP) and tanks/healers require skill. Or, that there's no classes where their best abilities are innate helping them be favored (like I warriors have innate mitigation but crusader requires active play to be as good a tank, suddenly you only see people rolling warriors).
I know this hinges on class balance, but a class that requires your attention and skill to be viable is also an immersive class. Auto attack and clicking 2 buttons is not immersive.
You make good points, but I have to say I was immersed further than any game before or since while clicking flying kick every 10 seconds.
