So something I've become very aware of recently is that there is a large chunk of games, gamers, and game devs that operate on a utilitarian approach to gaming. I've seen a lot of "if I won't use it, why should it be there?" arguments lately, and this is troubling to me. Why? Because to me this argument could be easily be interpreted to mean "the fact that other people would, or even might use it doesn't matier to me because I wouldn't." That wouldn't trouble me, except that very often this argument is being used to keep certain features out of a game. This led me to an understanding about my own play style and definition of immersion:
Sometimes in order to have an immersive world, you need to have features in the game that serve no purpose outside of providing immersion.
I'm curious to know how others define an immersive world, and futher, whether it's actually important to them.
Here's my definition:
The genre has "role playing game" in the title, so I expect the enviroment to be conducive to role play whether I intend to do so or not.
This is a big one to me. If I can see it in the world, I want to be able to interact with it. I want to click the door open and closed. I want to sit in the chair. I want to be able to loot any item I see visible on a mob. I want mobs to drop loot realistic to what kind of being they are. Why does a frog monster have a sword? Why does a giant spider have a rare spell parchment in its belly? There are ways to program such answers in that are not immersion breaking.
If I can hold it in my inventory, I should be able to put it on my person even if I can't train the skill.
I seem to be in a pretty clear minority here, but it really destroys immersion for me when I can loot an item, have it in my backpack, trade it to other players, but not actually equip it even though other members of my race can. No, I don't think everyone should be able to gain skill in every field, but you shouldn't need to train skill to physically equip something to see how it looks, or use it poorly in desperation.
Items should gain wear with use, and eventually break completely until repaired.
Pretty self explanatory.
Different races should have cultures, factions, languages, and cities that reflect all of the above.
Faction really went out the window after EQ. I really don't like the "my team your team" hard mechanic. I like being able to befriend the enemy if I want, or turn on my own people. I like that different races can be viewed differently by everyone, and not just boil down to good or evil. Also I miss being able to learn languages.
The world should be big and "getting there" should be it's own reward.
I don't like flight paths or fast travel. I want to commit to an area when I get there. I shouldn't be able to travel around the world quickly. I like waiting for boats. It let's you make new friends, and makes you think twice about where you're going and if you're really ready to leave. It makes grinding enemy faction worthwhile if you need a place to vendor while you explore far from home. Also, it let's a lot of cool things happen like having ocean zones with hidden islands that you can't have in a game like wow where you just teleport across in your magic zephlin.
Death should be feared, and repeated attempts without adaptation should have draw backs.
Nothing says "care bear" more than a game where you can keep trying until you luck into getting it right, with no penalties. I hate being able to run through an area, die and go "lol no consequences, time to do it again." I want actual fear from a game. I remember having a high heart rate many times playing EQ because of how close we were to wiping at 1% an hour into a raid. The first time my guild beat the Rather Council, it was hour 8 of raiding several weeks into trying. That kind of adrenaline doesn't happen in quick encounters or when death has no penalties.
These are some of my core tenants of immersion, and it is VERY important to me to see this in a game. Not everything is its own deal breaker, but enough of these things being violated makes me no longer enjoy the game.
So what about you guys?
Man, what a great post. It sounds like a cop out but, I completely agree with everything you wrote. All your points are important pieces that all come together to make the world feel alive and enrich our experience.
Off the top of my head, I might add a cohesive lore and attention to detail to your list. It kinda goes hand in hand with some of what you said though. The small things really add up to make the overall feel of the world something that has a presence of its own. Which makes it more immersive. Say what you will about WoW but Blizzard is excellent at breathing life into their worlds and I think a big portion of that is the attention to detail.
When we enter the world we need to feel the history. People and places have to have a history. A reason for being where and when they are. I've played some games where it feels like the devs just plopped buildings down in random places, there was no cohesiveness to the world and the lore seemed tacked on or irrelevant. That doean't lead to an immersive play experience.
Fortunately, I don't think either of these things will be an issue in Pantheon. :)
I would really like a like button....
First let me admit. Im not an immersion guy, Im more just regular socialization (no RPing) and fun mechanics and loot kind of guy. Thats not to say Im against immersion. I would just say that Im no fan of immersion over sound game design. And I also realize thats probably relative to the individual. There are some things where immersion is great, and others where its more important (to me) that the devs protect the players from themselves (see my various anti-zerg converstations that I wont re-hash here). Devs need to be careful in their choices.
Seeing as this game will have some pretty hardcore gear aquisition, I dont agree with being able to loose items of have them break. Loss of durability to the point an item is worthless until repaired and having it be more expensive the longer you go without a repair is fine. And I like the Idea of harsh death penalties just fine (just not item loss).
But ultimately I agree with almost all your post! Having a more immersive experience if done right will only help
Immersion are those things which, either by their presence or absence allows me to suspend my disbelief that I'm merely playing a game, drawing me in so that the passage of time goes unnoticed and I become my character.
Some will argue that I'm talking about engagement and not immersion. I say it is immersion.
I put in 'either by their presence or absence' because some things which are present will ruin immersion while other things that are absent also ruin immersion. They are difficult to define because in some cases they aren't pervasive throughout the game but present enough that it diminishes the overall experience of the game. One example was in Rift. NPC standing outfront of a building, hail to get a quest and he tells me to go kill 10 of something. Those 10 things? They were, and I am not lying, were literally standing right across the road from the NPC. I killed all 10 without having to move from the spot. That breaks immersion because it made no sense and clearly told me the developers gave little to no thought on the matter..which then makes we wonder about all the other stuff they just slapped together. I think it was Warhammer Online that didn't even have animations for your character turning around. Your legs just stayed in place and you just rotated as if on a turntable. Spell naming is big for me. Don't give me Fireball1 followed by Fireball2, 3 and 4. Give me FlashFlame, FlameStrike, Consume and Inferno. Put some thought into it!
Having a 1st person view which doesn't feel claustrophobic and feels more intuitive and 'natural' than a 3rd person view also reinforces my immersion. I played EQ1 strictly in first person view, never having an issue with it. Yet something about the mechanics of EQ2 forced me into 3rd person. Same with Rift. 1st person view was too limiting when playing. Playing a game where I'm staring at the back of my character just yells out to me "you are playing a video game."
The world needs some level of logic that is graspable, understandable and consistent. Things which stand out as illogical or out of place lessens my enjoyment.
Immersion: A vague term generally cited as an objection to any form of modernity in video games.
Edit: Words are hard.
Immersion = A living, breathing world that exists whether I'm in it or not.
Non-Immersive equals constant reminders in the world that I'm playing a game.
It's important because it gives credibility to the world and it makes you buy in and become much more invested.
Liav said:Immersion: A vague term generally cited as a unanimous objection to any form of modernity in video games.
First of all, the term is hardly vague. In fact, the whole point of the post was to discuss it. Secondly, Arksien (as well as the contributing posters) listed many specific examples of what makes a game immersive and not a single one opposes the "modernity" of Pantheon. And C, wth is "unanimous objection" anyway?
Malsirian said:Liav said:Immersion: A vague term generally cited as a unanimous objection to any form of modernity in video games.
First of all, the term is hardly vague. In fact, the whole point of the post was to discuss it. Secondly, Arksien (as well as the contributing posters) listed many specific examples of what makes a game immersive and not a single one opposes the "modernity" of Pantheon. And C, wth is "unanimous objection" anyway?
Edited for clarity.
Also, people in general love to cite "ruins my immersion" to object to any game mechanics that could be considered modern, or pioneered by any game that came out after the year 2004. I find most of the objections citing immersion to be pretty hollow.
I'm for immersion but... requiring mobs to drop EVERYTHING they are wearing, or a requirement that animals can't drop swords, is simply limiting the potential of a game IMHO. We're playing epic high fantasy here, sometimes you're required to suspend disbelief to maintain proper mechanics.
Immersion to me is my ability to connect with the world, basically what Vandraad said, to allow time IRL to go unnoticed. Everquest is still the only game to this day where I actually commonly sat for 5-6 hours at a time without even getting up, and when I did stand up and look around, I actually forgot where I was for a few seconds. That is immersion to me, no game has ever mimicked that feel for me. I'm not saying we should all sit and play for 5-6 hours in a row, that's not the point, the point is if the game is made for those types of things to happen, it will be great, regardless of how much time you CAN put in, you'll want to put more, and you'll think about it all the time when you're not.
They called it Evercrack for a reason, because to some people, it felt like a drug, without actually being one by definition. That's immersion.
Liav said:Malsirian said:Liav said:Immersion: A vague term generally cited as a unanimous objection to any form of modernity in video games.
First of all, the term is hardly vague. In fact, the whole point of the post was to discuss it. Secondly, Arksien (as well as the contributing posters) listed many specific examples of what makes a game immersive and not a single one opposes the "modernity" of Pantheon. And C, wth is "unanimous objection" anyway?
Edited for clarity.
Also, people in general love to cite "ruins my immersion" to object to any game mechanics that could be considered modern, or pioneered by any game that came out after the year 2004. I find most of the objections citing immersion to be pretty hollow.
Your insistence on absolutes and generalizations undermines whatever valid point you might be trying to make. "any game mechanics that could be considered modern"? Come on guy, that's just a straight up troll job. You talk like you have a point, but you can't seem to ever make one without absurd hyperbole.
I'm going to answer this one with generalizations:
Something is immersive in an MMO if it "fits" within the game world and serves to draw you into the game world... it helps the real world around you melt away while you are experiencing the game world... almost to the point where your spouse has to hit you with a frying pan to get your attention.
Something is immersion breaking in an MMO if it either doesn't "fit" or if it simply serves to jar you out of the game world. Immersion breaking is something IN the game hitting you with that frying pan instead of your spouse. We all know what that immersion break feels like. We all know that it can be caused by someTHING in game, or someONE in game.
To me, I sort of think it might make more sense to talk about what is immersion BREAKING. Because anything that is not immersion breaking, at least leaves you in the world (if it doesn't directly serve to draw you into the world) - so immersion neutral at worst.
Some examples of Immersion BREAKING things
If you played EQII, you will likely recall that one NPC in one of the suburbs who had a quest for you... she waved frantically at you when you passed her beckoning you over. Awesome the first time it happened. When you passed her for the 1000'th time, and she long since didn't have that quest for you, and she was still waving at you like a giddy little fool... it was annoying - and thus, immersion breaking.
If you played WoW, the over the top speech Sindragosa gave about killing you... cool the first time, but again, annoying the 400th time you heard it - right before you killed her.
Again in WoW, when they put in the little "I CAN SEE YOU!" radar above the heads of any mob that would be able to see you while in stealth.
Trolling in general chat.
etc...
Krixus said:Your insistence on absolutes and generalizations undermines whatever valid point you might be trying to make. "any game mechanics that could be considered modern"? Come on guy, that's just a straight up troll job. You talk like you have a point, but you can't seem to ever make one without absurd hyperbole.
Hyperbole aside, they do sort of have a point. A lot of legitimate discussion gets sidetracked or even stonewalled by people chiming in with objections about it being "immersion breaking", without ever really explaining exactly what they mean by that.
I'll be honest though, immersion isn't that important to me, but I certainly wouldn't want to spoil it for others who do deem it an important factor in their enjoyment. I will say though I think the two most immersion breaking things are dungeon finders and guild halls. Between the two of them they make the world feel completely dead.
Wandidar said:If you played EQII, you will likely recall that one NPC in one of the suburbs who had a quest for you... she waved frantically at you when you passed her beckoning you over. Awesome the first time it happened. When you passed her for the 1000'th time, and she long since didn't have that quest for you, and she was still waving at you like a giddy little fool... it was annoying - and thus, immersion breaking.
I remember Vida Sweeps constantly complaining about needing a new broom. She still does it, she's just been relocated to Qeynos Harbor now, I think. I miss those old suburbs...
Wandidar said:I'm going to answer this one with generalizations:
Something is immersive in an MMO if it "fits" within the game world and serves to draw you into the game world... it helps the real world around you melt away while you are experiencing the game world... almost to the point where your spouse has to hit you with a frying pan to get your attention.
Something is immersion breaking in an MMO if it either doesn't "fit" or if it simply serves to jar you out of the game world. Immersion breaking is something IN the game hitting you with that frying pan instead of your spouse. We all know what that immersion break feels like. We all know that it can be caused by someTHING in game, or someONE in game.
To me, I sort of think it might make more sense to talk about what is immersion BREAKING. Because anything that is not immersion breaking, at least leaves you in the world (if it doesn't directly serve to draw you into the world) - so immersion neutral at worst.
Some examples of Immersion BREAKING things
If you played EQII, you will likely recall that one NPC in one of the suburbs who had a quest for you... she waved frantically at you when you passed her beckoning you over. Awesome the first time it happened. When you passed her for the 1000'th time, and she long since didn't have that quest for you, and she was still waving at you like a giddy little fool... it was annoying - and thus, immersion breaking.
If you played WoW, the over the top speech Sindragosa gave about killing you... cool the first time, but again, annoying the 400th time you heard it - right before you killed her.
Again in WoW, when they put in the little "I CAN SEE YOU!" radar above the heads of any mob that would be able to see you while in stealth.
Trolling in general chat.
etc...
Pretty well nailed it for me. The wife with the frying pan analogy... priceless.
I agree with your post. Immersion for me is anything that pulls you into the game. Since I quit everquest back in 2005 I've been trying to find the same kind of immersion but I wasn't ever able to do so until I started playing Skyrim. I was able to become my character, whichever one I was making/playing at the time, and roam around freely in a world where I could do almost anything. Everquest felt the same to me except my reputation was from real people and factions, not just what the game remembered that I did. I guess, like a few people have said, immersion is whatever pulls you into the game.
It could be different for everyone though. One thing could pull you in and push someone else out. I think that striking that balance for everyone is why games like world of warcraft have to include things like the radar above the heads of mobs that can see you, to reference another post. Those games try to be for everyone. With pantheon being for our little corner of the market I hope that we get a full and rich enviornment, much like everquest, that just lets us be in charge of how immersed we want to be.
Thanks for the great forum topic.
And may our wives/husbands keep their frying pans close.
itvar said:Krixus said:Your insistence on absolutes and generalizations undermines whatever valid point you might be trying to make. "any game mechanics that could be considered modern"? Come on guy, that's just a straight up troll job. You talk like you have a point, but you can't seem to ever make one without absurd hyperbole.
Hyperbole aside, they do sort of have a point. A lot of legitimate discussion gets sidetracked or even stonewalled by people chiming in with objections about it being "immersion breaking", without ever really explaining exactly what they mean by that.
I'll be honest though, immersion isn't that important to me, but I certainly wouldn't want to spoil it for others who do deem it an important factor in their enjoyment. I will say though I think the two most immersion breaking things are dungeon finders and guild halls. Between the two of them they make the world feel completely dead.
Wandidar said:If you played EQII, you will likely recall that one NPC in one of the suburbs who had a quest for you... she waved frantically at you when you passed her beckoning you over. Awesome the first time it happened. When you passed her for the 1000'th time, and she long since didn't have that quest for you, and she was still waving at you like a giddy little fool... it was annoying - and thus, immersion breaking.
I remember Vida Sweeps constantly complaining about needing a new broom. She still does it, she's just been relocated to Qeynos Harbor now, I think. I miss those old suburbs...
When you can do something like the consider system which takes one click or one keypress, why would you need to have a HUD that tells you LEVEL 27. And when you've fought the mob once or twice, why do you need an on screen display that says CLASS: WARRIOR. You know it's a warrior. And when that warrior backstabs you, oops, you were wrong. And now you know it's a rogue. Why should you have been told up front on your screen? Why do we need visual indicators for things we already know or can figure out easily?
The whole "war against modernizing" is so disingenuous. This is a high fantasy game, not mechwarrior. We don't need a HUD. We can take our cues from the world around us.
You've just defeated a rare bear in its cave for your level 30 class breastplate quest, up on this beautiful forested mountain. suddenly it becomes dark and cloudy and starts raining. The trees become thicker as you swiftly descend, you bonk your head on a low hanging branch and lose your balance. When you get to your feet, the first thing you see is a clutch of giant eggs. You hear an all too familiar screech and spin around. The Griffin Matriarch is home, guarding her brood. She atacks!
And then yellow and red and purple numbers start flying up your screen and your targeting stats say it's a level 47 Druid with 4480/4500 HP and 600/600 mana and has skin like steel, thorns, and strength of earth buffs. Is that what you want? I'm no roleplayer, but some things belong in the console, not IN the world. The first time you whack that griffin you're going to know it has a damage shield. You con it and know what level it is, or hell, you've been killed by these a million times. You already know. You knew it had buffs the first time you cast dispel magic on it and "its mystical shield crumbles and its strength fades". Why do you need these things spelled out for you in plain english on the screen?
Krixus said:When you can do something like the consider system which takes one click or one keypress, why would you need to have a HUD that tells you LEVEL 27. And when you've fought the mob once or twice, why do you need an on screen display that says CLASS: WARRIOR. You know it's a warrior. And when that warrior backstabs you, oops, you were wrong. And now you know it's a rogue. Why should you have been told up front on your screen? Why do we need visual indicators for things we already know or can figure out easily?
The whole "war against modernizing" is so disingenuous. This is a high fantasy game, not mechwarrior. We don't need a HUD. We can take our cues from the world around us.
You've just defeated a rare bear in its cave for your level 30 class breastplate quest, up on this beautiful forested mountain. suddenly it becomes dark and cloudy and starts raining. The trees become thicker as you swiftly descend, you bonk your head on a low hanging branch and lose your balance. When you get to your feet, the first thing you see is a clutch of giant eggs. You hear an all too familiar screech and spin around. The Griffin Matriarch is home, guarding her brood. She atacks!
And then yellow and red and purple numbers start flying up your screen and your targeting stats say it's a level 47 Druid with 4480/4500 HP and 600/600 mana and has skin like steel, thorns, and strength of earth buffs. Is that what you want? I'm no roleplayer, but some things belong in the console, not IN the world. The first time you whack that griffin you're going to know it has a damage shield. You con it and know what level it is, or hell, you've been killed by these a million times. You already know. You knew it had buffs the first time you cast dispel magic on it and "its mystical shield crumbles and its strength fades". Why do you need these things spelled out for you in plain english on the screen?
hahaha...all that is SO true Krixus. I gotta agree with every word.
Krixus said:The whole "war against modernizing" is so disingenuous. This is a high fantasy game, not mechwarrior. We don't need a HUD. We can take our cues from the world around us.
Great post and I echo Vandraad - agree with the whole thing - snipped it to what I think is the most important and can be applied to all of Pantheon's development.
Scrago said:I agree with your post. Immersion for me is anything that pulls you into the game. Since I quit everquest back in 2005 I've been trying to find the same kind of immersion but I wasn't ever able to do so until I started playing Skyrim. I was able to become my character, whichever one I was making/playing at the time, and roam around freely in a world where I could do almost anything. Everquest felt the same to me except my reputation was from real people and factions, not just what the game remembered that I did. I guess, like a few people have said, immersion is whatever pulls you into the game.
It could be different for everyone though. One thing could pull you in and push someone else out. I think that striking that balance for everyone is why games like world of warcraft have to include things like the radar above the heads of mobs that can see you, to reference another post. Those games try to be for everyone. With pantheon being for our little corner of the market I hope that we get a full and rich enviornment, much like everquest, that just lets us be in charge of how immersed we want to be.
Thanks for the great forum topic.
And may our wives/husbands keep their frying pans close.
I went through exaclty the same thing. Since EQ, I found immersion in other MMO's was difficult to find, but Skyrim really did it for me. The commonalities between the two games is that they didnt tell you much. No indicators for mob strength, no floating damage text, no aggro indicators, dps meters or gear scores. Total immersion.
To me, immersion almost completely lies into the quality of the lore and the fun of the game. Researching lore is what makes the character feel alive to me. To fun part is about forgetting outside distraction. If I'm bored with what's on my screeen nothing else will keep me in my character.
Krixus said:When you can do something like the consider system which takes one click or one keypress, why would you need to have a HUD that tells you LEVEL 27. And when you've fought the mob once or twice, why do you need an on screen display that says CLASS: WARRIOR. You know it's a warrior. And when that warrior backstabs you, oops, you were wrong. And now you know it's a rogue. Why should you have been told up front on your screen? Why do we need visual indicators for things we already know or can figure out easily?
The whole "war against modernizing" is so disingenuous. This is a high fantasy game, not mechwarrior. We don't need a HUD. We can take our cues from the world around us.
You've just defeated a rare bear in its cave for your level 30 class breastplate quest, up on this beautiful forested mountain. suddenly it becomes dark and cloudy and starts raining. The trees become thicker as you swiftly descend, you bonk your head on a low hanging branch and lose your balance. When you get to your feet, the first thing you see is a clutch of giant eggs. You hear an all too familiar screech and spin around. The Griffin Matriarch is home, guarding her brood. She atacks!
And then yellow and red and purple numbers start flying up your screen and your targeting stats say it's a level 47 Druid with 4480/4500 HP and 600/600 mana and has skin like steel, thorns, and strength of earth buffs. Is that what you want? I'm no roleplayer, but some things belong in the console, not IN the world. The first time you whack that griffin you're going to know it has a damage shield. You con it and know what level it is, or hell, you've been killed by these a million times. You already know. You knew it had buffs the first time you cast dispel magic on it and "its mystical shield crumbles and its strength fades". Why do you need these things spelled out for you in plain english on the screen?
Let's reverse your argument. Why do you need a consider system when you can have a HUD? I prefer HUDS to text box info. I like my chat box to be about actual chat. Why clutter my screen with an additional chat box I'll rarely check if I can hide it behind the main tab and have combat numbers pop and disappear above the enemy?
UI elements should always be toggles and customizable in my mind. There is no agreeing on the perfect UI for everyone.
Immersion to me is at any moment in the game where elements come together to create a fond memory or feeling in your head that is lasting. Remind you, this can be a good feeling or a feeling of hardship, either way, it is immersive because the game itself effected you emotionally.
Sounds, music, game mechanics, graphics, NPC actions, group interactions, conditions, results... and many other factors all play a role in this but the key factor is did it capture your emotion hard enough to make a perminent memory.
That is why in MMOs where you are able to "rush" through and kill everything on your own without danger or a game where you mindlessly stroll from quest to quest to quest, simply lacks the mental / emotional impact to make it immersive. There are not enough elements that come together to make it immersive.
Mekada said:To me, immersion almost completely lies into the quality of the lore and the fun of the game. Researching lore is what makes the character feel alive to me. To fun part is about forgetting outside distraction. If I'm bored with what's on my screeen nothing else will keep me in my character.
Krixus said:When you can do something like the consider system which takes one click or one keypress, why would you need to have a HUD that tells you LEVEL 27. And when you've fought the mob once or twice, why do you need an on screen display that says CLASS: WARRIOR. You know it's a warrior. And when that warrior backstabs you, oops, you were wrong. And now you know it's a rogue. Why should you have been told up front on your screen? Why do we need visual indicators for things we already know or can figure out easily?
The whole "war against modernizing" is so disingenuous. This is a high fantasy game, not mechwarrior. We don't need a HUD. We can take our cues from the world around us.
You've just defeated a rare bear in its cave for your level 30 class breastplate quest, up on this beautiful forested mountain. suddenly it becomes dark and cloudy and starts raining. The trees become thicker as you swiftly descend, you bonk your head on a low hanging branch and lose your balance. When you get to your feet, the first thing you see is a clutch of giant eggs. You hear an all too familiar screech and spin around. The Griffin Matriarch is home, guarding her brood. She atacks!
And then yellow and red and purple numbers start flying up your screen and your targeting stats say it's a level 47 Druid with 4480/4500 HP and 600/600 mana and has skin like steel, thorns, and strength of earth buffs. Is that what you want? I'm no roleplayer, but some things belong in the console, not IN the world. The first time you whack that griffin you're going to know it has a damage shield. You con it and know what level it is, or hell, you've been killed by these a million times. You already know. You knew it had buffs the first time you cast dispel magic on it and "its mystical shield crumbles and its strength fades". Why do you need these things spelled out for you in plain english on the screen?
Let's reverse your argument. Why do you need a consider system when you can have a HUD? I prefer HUDS to text box info. I like my chat box to be about actual chat. Why clutter my screen with an additional chat box I'll rarely check if I can hide it behind the main tab and have combat numbers pop and disappear above the enemy?
UI elements should always be toggles and customizable in my mind. There is no agreeing on the perfect UI for everyone.
Hardly reversing my argument. You address one example, the on screen numbers, which is, as you said, the easiet to deal with for everyone. I stand by my point. Why do we need on screen info that explicitly tells us thing we already know or can figure out?
Pyye said:Immersion to me is at any moment in the game where elements come together to create a fond memory or feeling in your head that is lasting. Remind you, this can be a good feeling or a feeling of hardship, either way, it is immersive because the game itself effected you emotionally.
Sounds, music, game mechanics, graphics, NPC actions, group interactions, conditions, results... and many other factors all play a role in this but the key factor is did it capture your emotion hard enough to make a perminent memory.
That is why in MMOs where you are able to "rush" through and kill everything on your own without danger or a game where you mindlessly stroll from quest to quest to quest, simply lacks the mental / emotional impact to make it immersive. There are not enough elements that come together to make it immersive.
nailed it
I think it's important to note as well how a huge part of the classic EQ playerbase opted to use ShowEQ/MacroQuest(2) so they could tap into a lot of the information that wasn't immediately available in the game UI. I'm not advocating for cheating, but it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of people like to have what could be considered bare bones information presented to them. It's just pointless not to, and all of the cries for immersion breaking seem to be coming from the same 10-15 names on the forum.
How many people will play Pantheon? How many of those people will buy/have bought pledges? How many of that smaller group posts on these forums? Last but not least, how representative and influential should the opinion of the extreme minority of players posting here be considered by the developers?
Call it anecdotal if you like, but there seems to be a lot of evidence that trends towards QOL information being preferred, as opposed to not. I'm really concerned with the absolute lack of compromise that the posters here tend to exhibit. Some of the objections to "HUD" elements in-game seem like they could be logically extended to features that classic EQ had as well. Why even bother putting overhead names on NPCs? I'll tell you why. Pantheon is not going to be a virtual-reality game, and compromises need to be made to provide some basic-level information to the player so as to not frustrate and inconvenience the hell out of people.
What is basic-level information? Pretty self explanatory. Enemy/ally evel, enemy/ally hit points in percentage format, and very explicitly defined stats that don't require days of research to understand how they influence your effectiveness. I would add the nuances that being able to view the HP percentage of every mob that is on your hate list simultaneously is an amazing feature that I believe should be there. Last but not least, exportable logs with timestamps in a very unambiguous format.
These are basic level features that every single game in the past decade has had. If you want to be cute and argue that every game in the past decade sucks, well, you're demonstrably wrong if you're attempting to state it as fact. What's also important to note is that the basic-level features as defined above are not the cause of a game failing. These features are absolutely basic UI functions.
TL;DR: Unwillingness to compromise on both sides of the fence are pissing me off. We don't need an arcade game, but we also don't need a game with a barely-existent user-interface.
Liav said:I think it's important to note as well how a huge part of the classic EQ playerbase opted to use ShowEQ/MacroQuest(2) so they could tap into a lot of the information that wasn't immediately available in the game UI. I'm not advocating for cheating, but it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of people like to have what could be considered bare bones information presented to them. It's just pointless not to, and all of the cries for immersion breaking seem to be coming from the same 10-15 names on the forum.
How many people will play Pantheon? How many of those people will buy/have bought pledges? How many of that smaller group posts on these forums? Last but not least, how representative and influential should the opinion of the extreme minority of players posting here be considered by the developers?
Call it anecdotal if you like, but there seems to be a lot of evidence that trends towards QOL information being preferred, as opposed to not. I'm really concerned with the absolute lack of compromise that the posters here tend to exhibit. Some of the objections to "HUD" elements in-game seem like they could be logically extended to features that classic EQ had as well. Why even bother putting overhead names on NPCs? I'll tell you why. Pantheon is not going to be a virtual-reality game, and compromises need to be made to provide some basic-level information to the player so as to not frustrate and inconvenience the hell out of people.
What is basic-level information? Pretty self explanatory. Enemy/ally evel, enemy/ally hit points in percentage format, and very explicitly defined stats that don't require days of research to understand how they influence your effectiveness. I would add the nuances that being able to view the HP percentage of every mob that is on your hate list simultaneously is an amazing feature that I believe should be there. Last but not least, exportable logs with timestamps in a very unambiguous format.
These are basic level features that every single game in the past decade has had. If you want to be cute and argue that every game in the past decade sucks, well, you're demonstrably wrong if you're attempting to state it as fact. What's also important to note is that the basic-level features as defined above are not the cause of a game failing. These features are absolutely basic UI functions.
TL;DR: Unwillingness to compromise on both sides of the fence are pissing me off. We don't need an arcade game, but we also don't need a game with a barely-existent user-interface.
First if all, "most" people did not use showEQ, in fact, I'd wager next to no one did, especially since it was a ban worthy offense.
Also, yes, many people like games like WoW, which is why games like WoW exist. This game is literally saying "I will not cave in. I will make a good game again, and if the casuals and ADD people of the world don't like it, too bad, this game is not for them."
That is the very mission statement of the game. Your arguments come off as dangerously close to "let's sell out to the masses and make this game another WoW clone to get more interest," when this game is supposed to be our one safe haven against exactly that.
If this game goes even so much as letting moders put the wow style lowest common denominator interface in, and ESPECIALLY if it is the default, I won't play, and I bet most of the core demographic this game targets won't either.
I wouldn't mind if this game didn't even give yout HP bars for the enemy. I'd like the animations to show how much abuse they are taking with body language. Not a bar. Not with text. And DEFINITELY not an HUD. If I punch a guy, I can tell how much it hurt him by how he reacts. That's what I want in a game. If we wipe, I don't want to know I was only 3% away, I just want to know I failed. I want to feel relief when a mob dies.
Sorry if you like the modern gaming HUDs, but I don't and I think they've ruined gaming. I think this game needs modernization and new features, but things that make the game easier are not the type of modernization I'm looking for personally. I should never know my enemies hp or mana, or what class they are. I should have rough guesses based on size/race of the mob, but shouldn't ever be able to take anything for granted.