As a top mage in EQ it was very important for me to parse my raid stats. Most of us had goals, plus the ability to take down DPS end boss mobs was important.
A mage, doing half the dps they where suppose to usually ended up being a failed attempt. When you have 2-3 doing it, it becomes a nightmare burning a boss down. Same applied to necros, mages, wizards etc.. The dps classes such as rangers, rogues, zerkers etc.. had to keep on top of it all. It was very important to top end guilds.
so parsing allowed us to work on that as a guild. Not knowing how someone was doing, ment we where not doing something correctly.
Not sure what type of guild you came from kilsin, but most of the top end guilds today made use of it or you where not welcomed in a teir 1 guild.
just saying..
I guess I don't understand the need. How can a DPS meter be of any help.
Say I am a wizard, like the one in the twitch TV group. I Nuke, and get agro. I have to STOP dps-ing until the tank gets it off me, or I have to root it, back up and take it out by myself, or die.
What if, the fight before the group accidentally pulled 7 mobs and you barely made it thru the fight. Soon as you sit to med, you get respawn of 3 from behind you. The wizard has enough for 2 small/medium nukes the entire fight of the 3 adds.
His DPS is going to suck, and we all know stryker is going to consider that having to "carry" you because he has a DPS meter and that's all that matters to him.
He carried you for several fights like that for a couple hours. His elitism now says, You suck. .... (gotta love that wow 13 year old epeen attitude)
Say a wizard is capable of doing 1000 dps on a single target and 8000 dps in pure AE/AoE damage but that requires him to die every single fight because the tank can't pull that kind of agro off the wizard; Where is the cut off between sucking because you only did 400 Dps (single target) but, didn't pull agro, and didn't die or run the cleric oom.
So who is getting carried? the 1000 dps wizard that dies 30 times in 30 pulls, or the 400 dps that didn't need a lot of heals and didn't die once?
put dps meters in the game if you want them. the first time someone says something about my dps will be told 'F U. Go find another group in wow' and i'll show you where you can put your epeen elitism.
DPS meters and parses are literally the same thing, one is just displayed in-game and the other is displayed out of game, colloquially.
The purpose of a DPS meter/parser is simple; to optimize your gameplay.
Personally i have never been a fan of NOT having usefull tools just because SOME person could use it for SOMETHING that MIGHT be considered bad by SOMEONE.
Parsing logs is very valueable to raiding and guilds that do want to progress and improve themselves.
It really is that simple. Every tool can be used in a bad manner. If we remove every tool because of the possibility, just to avoid having to talk to others, then we end up without any tools at all. I am all up for log parsing addons since i personally LOVE to improve myself. Sure it can be done without, but bleeding edge is what i love and you can not get those last few % i you only "guess" what is better. I am also trying to get the best numbers WHILE NOT screwing over others. Doing my job perfectly and meanwhile do the best DPS WHILE doing that job perfectly.
Just a thing i love to do. Not due to others telling me to, but because it is a huge part of the fun for myself.
I agree totally with what people fear, and dont fear of raid tools.
Parses where used for recruitment tools, not solely but a guide. It allowed you to find a sponsor to help train you in giving all you can at raids and understanding the process. Nobody cares if your #1, they care if your half the value of the lowest level class all the time.
It is very early to be pressing the issue.
Professional baseball teams, will bench you, and send you to the minors all the time should a teir 1 raiding guild do any less? i dunno but these tools helped them.
I wouldnt boot someone from my group, unless they where afk all the time, and not healing etc... but thats the group game.
Kilsin said:We did have topics on this but sadly with the change to the forums, we had to archive most posts prior to 2015, so a lot of these are missing now, feel free to discuss this topic again here.
I will say that as a Guild Leader/Raid Leader myself and someone who actually sits down and spends a lot of time crunching those stats and numbers to be the best I can as a player and to get the most out of raiding, I really enjoyed having access to that data while playing VG and I do not have a problem with it at all.
Parsers are very valuable to anyone who wants to better themselves and put a little bit of extra effort into their characters, raider especially make great use of these tools as do developers.
I agree... I'm really hoping there is some detailed logging options available that will allow me to really analyze the data thats being captured. I'm a big min/max optimized and would really like to have exportable logs that cover as many facets of my gameplay as I choose to have.
Rint
Hmm, DPS parsers. Great concept that can be badly misused by 12 year olds. Not that I really care what they have to say...
Yeah, if they are available there are probably some people who will misuse them. However, with the given target audience I don't think that will be a huge issue, and if the majority of the population is anything like it was during my time in EQ, those dps elitists will either a) quit before they get very far and are shunned or b) will group/guild together to the exclusion of others. Either way the majority of us won't have to deal with them.
There shouldn't be anything wrong with using parsers to help yourself or others improve, it's all in how you go about it.
That being said, it would be great if the parsers were true "Combat parsers" rather than just DPS parsers. The inclusion of other combat-affecting actions would be great. For example (and I didn't follow the combat window during any of the live streams closely enough to see if this was included) the use of stuns to interrupt key spells. For instance, maybe a line similar to "A Risen Cleric's spell was interrupted by Backstabber's Glancing Blow". Backstabber's dps at the end of the fight was 300, which was lower than Pinprick's 325(both are rogues, if you haven't guessed). However Backstabber interrupted 3 heals, and while that lowered his overall DPS, those heals could well have doubled the duration of the fight had they landed. Who played the class more effectively?
My point being, it's fine to give people a tool to measure combat effectiveness, or even just the means to create one. But if you are going to give people that information, make sure that it can measure all aspects of combat actions, not just DPS.
I'm in the pro-parse crowd. Correct, DPS numbers do not describe a player's full capability, however it can allow to peak in to see how much the player is doing or if they may or may not know what certain abilities can do. Players take it personal when their ability is able to get critiqued down to a science, so why not get better at it? (Now of course I'm talking about one aspect of the parser). Call me elitist, but if I am doing high-end content, group or raid and I know there is a requirement on the dps front that needs to be met, then I'm going to take players (if not my guild) who can meet that requirement.
Parsers don't really bother me either, as has been said, if it's used negatively I just won't end up in those groups because I am not a min/maxer. I do have a huge problem with other addon programs that give advantages that were never intended. Those I hope they don't allow.
Most addons derive from information that's already available to the player, just in a more....usable manner you could say. Even addons that tells players timers and when things will be occuring during raid encounters I am ok with because that information came from a player who got it from within the game. Now of course addons that could somehow tell you if a named is up 10-zones over are pretty sketch.
If this "game" turns into a job of number crunching I will have lost the desire to play before I have played. I'd like the game to be a game that I play with family, friends, and strangers. I'd like it not to turn into another esport game that breeds assholes and elitiest. My personal take on it of course...
Seems as thought I should have thought twice before giving thousands to a project that didn't have a solid plan other than to be "old school". I guess my definition of "old school" differs from others.
If players know how to optimize their gameplay for more difficult content (presuming the content requires that) without a parser, more power to them. However that usually isn't the case. Doesn't breed assholes/elitist, 10 times out of 10 those players were assholes/elitist prior :p
Niien said:If this "game" turns into a job of number crunching I will have lost the desire to play before I have played. I'd like the game to be a game that I play with family, friends, and strangers. I'd like it not to turn into another esport game that breeds assholes and elitiest. My personal take on it of course...
Seems as thought I should have thought twice before giving thousands to a project that didn't have a solid plan other than to be "old school". I guess my definition of "old school" differs from others.
The style of game this is won't allow it to become an esport as there is no heavy push on PVP and you can't do much by yourself for very long anyway. In my experience in EQ, the elitist only really showed up in server first type guilds. It wasn't a problem with every day experience groups because the elitists were all in their own groups away from the common rabble.
That being said I would like parsers to require a modicum of work to get going. Doesn't mean a thing to raid leaders or guild leaders, but reduces the number of every day chaps who don't really need it and don't understand it trying to feel special by belittling someone with a lower number than them. Although I am also skeptical that people like that will make it past level 10 since they will have to rely on others to level up so that may be a moot point.
Being able to analyze how much damage, what attack to use first vs. 2nd, how to optimize your dmg output, all reason to analyze your DPS class. Using parsers in early Vanguard I was able to devise this flowchart that helped me understand how to structure my attacks to optimum use.
It was very successful and many wanted to know how to duplicate my results. So I published my flow chart. Oddly enough, the devs used this information to actually nerf the class as it was deemed the amount of damage was exceeding what they thought was appropriate.
There are programs that will parse your chat through OCR. Final Fantasy XIV doesnt allow any mods but there is still a program that runs on your PC that "reads" your chat log and parses the numbers for you so even if they do not allow parses people can and will still use them.
Aggelos said:There are programs that will parse your chat through OCR. Final Fantasy XIV doesnt allow any mods but there is still a program that runs on your PC that "reads" your chat log and parses the numbers for you so even if they do not allow parses people can and will still use them.
Oh goodness, please lets not start another parser/dps meter conversation.
Unless they do something extreme like not make everyones damage viewable to group members there will always be a way for others to parse your dps. That is a given. Can we not poke that bear again please?
zewtastic said:Being able to analyze how much damage, what attack to use first vs. 2nd, how to optimize your dmg output, all reason to analyze your DPS class. Using parsers in early Vanguard I was able to devise this flowchart that helped me understand how to structure my attacks to optimum use.
It was very successful and many wanted to know how to duplicate my results. So I published my flow chart. Oddly enough, the devs used this information to actually nerf the class as it was deemed the amount of damage was exceeding what they thought was appropriate.
I remember you posting this originally Zew and even though I didn;t play a Ranger, I thought it was pretty cool, those numbers are pretty nice on Vicus man! No wonder they nerfed you! lol