Zlambit said:having access to your own numbers is fine with me, the ability to paste them into game chats and reading others, is a HUGE NO!
For me personally I would prefer that parsing and DPS meters not be allowed. The reason being is that in the end they end up adversley affecting almost the entire player base in game.
The majority of the folks that want/need DPS meters are normally the folks that tend to graviate towards min/maxing. These are also normally the folks that tend to be in the top tier guilds doing end game raiding.
This same group of players are also normally are the folks that are running the new end game content with the devs on the test server working on debugging and tuning raid content.
So what this means is that these folks that are helping to tune content for the entire game using these DPS meters are causing the devs to tune every fight around the fact that these players are doing the highest possible damage that can be done. This ends up causing every fight to have zero room for error. In most games I have played this then leads to players asking for and or creating programs to help give them more of a edge to beat a encounter. Next thing you know now stuff like BOSS MODS programs are being used to help give that split second advantage to avoid incomming attacks/debuffs. This in turns I feel waters down the challenge of the encounter. Now you have the devs having to resort to over tuning encounters to offset the advantages these programs are giving their player base. This then tends to lead to the devs having to waste more time tuning and retuning encounters that are already in game as opposed to spending that time creating more content.
For the folks that want/need a DPS meter remember there is one already built into the game, even at this early stage and it's the only one that really matters. Did we kill the monster before it killed us? Yes we did. Well then we had enough DPS.
All I hope for is that this game stresses things other than DPS
in all the craptastic MMOs out there today its all about dps, thats it...the be all and end all of your character is your dps
dont do enough and bam youre out (of the group, raid or guild)
I mean I understand that dps is important..but make other things matter...or have it where full on max dps at all times is actually detrimental to the fight. EQ did it 15 years ago
Im sure the devs can do it again. And I swear if I ever hear someone complain about my dps on my cleric they will instantly go on my do not rez list for life
and yeah Ive had that happen im many many games ( I play a damn healer so I dont have to worry aobut my damn dps!)
Put me down in the love/hate camp.
I love being informed enough to improve my character, but I hate that DPS and other meta wrecks my immersion.
I love being able to spot who is leeching exp and taking up space better filled with a good, involved player. I hate raid/group leaders who monitor the parse and just /kick people left and right because of some Elitist Jerks wannabe thing going on.
I love the useful, I hate the abuse.
Everyone seems to be focusing on DPS information. I'm not a min/max'er so I don't care about DPS. I want logs for all the other things they contain. I've gone back to logs over 10 years old when I need to look up information. Some other things logs are useful for.
* Determining how many of some thing you have killed.
* Helping other players connect with someone you saw selling something.
* Keeping track of what loot something drops.
* Tracking the price of something.
* Remebering what vendor had the item you needed.
* Remebering who that person the quest wanted you to go see was.
* Tracking your faction.
* Keeping track of when I purchased or sold something and for how much.
I really hope quest text will be written to a log and not just displayed in a scrollable window like WoW.
It's very obvious when a tank or healer is not performing. People die. Everyone notices. Why shouldn't DPS also be held to this same standard in a TEAM WORK ORIENTED GAME?
Let's look at how we measure "success" of each role.
The tank obviously tanks things, until death.
Failure of This Role = Not tanking something. Or dead, and cannot tank something.
If the tank dies --- It's either the tanks fault for not avoiding/mitigating something or the healers fault for not performing. Both are quite obvious for everyone to see.
The healer heals their team mates and provides support.
Failure of This Role = Not healing something. Or dead, and not healing.
If the healer dies --- It's the tanks fault for not picking something up or the healers fault for standing in something. Both are quite obvious for everyone to see.
DPS dishes out damage to the boss(es).
Failure of This Role = Not Meeting DPS checks. Not killing monsters in a specific priority to prevent catastrophe.
If the DPS are dead, it's either the DPS's fault for not avoiding something similar to the tank... or the healers aren't performing. As with the other two roles, this is easy for all to see.
HOWEVER
It is not so very obvious to the team when someone is not using their abilities correctly, or at the correct time, to maximize DPS.
To further complicate this, there are usually more DPS than any other role making it even more difficult to catch whoever is underperforming.
I am all for DPS meters built into the game. If this game provides the "challenge" people are asking for, it's going to be crucial we have the tools to be able to meet that challenge.
My general thoughts:
1. Parsing the information we send to the client is fine -- if you can parse it and data mine the information and it's of use to you, I've no issue with that.
2. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of creating a UI API where third parties can plug UI or parsing or data mining into the game client and either a. get more information than the other player who is not using the plug-in or b. get more information than what we intend the player to have or c. both.
3. I do want a customizable UI to a degree, and to allow players to set things up in a way that works for them personally. But I think this can be acheived without true plug-ins and APIs.
4. We are making an even bigger effort with Pantheon than we did with EQ and VG to keep the client as DUMB as possible, sending as little information over as possible and avoiding aboslute positional data (using relative positional data when we can). We don't want it to be easy to data mine where mobs spawn, or what the stats of items that drop in a zone are, or where other players and NPCs are relative to your position. Some of this is unnavoidable, but a lot is. Heh, this goes back to ShowEQ -- anyone remember that?
ShowEQ...lol, taking the one useful thing rangers did away from them, relegating the entire class to their early era, class defining role of eating Death Touches so useful classes could keep raiding. :D
I am a big fan of less meta that can wreck immersion. Pro-style modded MMO gaming is part of why newer MMOs don't have the staying power of older ones imho. Good on ya Brad if you guys are trying to make the immersion wrecking mechanics as minimum as possible.
Long before DPS parses, guilds were figuring out who needed to do what in raids to be more effective at the their game, and trial and error worked out just fine. No reason it can't keep being that way.
In a perfect world I'd want no exportable logs/parsing/etc period. Part of what keeps the magic of a game alive is not knowing what goes on behind the curtain. The less players are given access to raw data / numbers, the better.
This kind of bleeds over into add-ons for me. UI / Add-ons should be cosmetic only, and only display the same information as the base UI.
Manipulating these things is a slippery slope and is purely detrimental in my opinion. Why fight tooth and nail for the vision of this game, only to spit in it's face with data or interface manipulation that will trivialize any aspect of it?
I personally hate how the use of APIs have evolved. It has taken all the mystery out of games and turned it into a game of spreadsheets. I'm all for UI customization, but the use of DPS and aggro meters have ruined current MMOs for me. I'm tired of how ow it has turned out to be an epenis and has taken all the true skill of knowing when to use abilities.
JackDaStripper said:I personally hate how the use of APIs have evolved. It has taken all the mystery out of games and turned it into a game of spreadsheets. I'm all for UI customization, but the use of DPS and aggro meters have ruined current MMOs for me. I'm tired of how ow it has turned out to be an epenis and has taken all the true skill of knowing when to use abilities.
Uh, no.
On the point of aggro meters, well, that's one thing. However, obscuring information like DPS and the effects your stats have on your character actually encourages people to make spreadsheets and all sorts of ridiculousness.
If you provide the information to people then at the least a wider variety of people have access to that information. If you restrict it, then only the elite few will have that information and it will probably take a while to reach the more casual players.
Liav said:Kilsin said:We did have topics on this but sadly with the change to the forums, we had to archive most posts prior to 2015, so a lot of these are missing now, feel free to discuss this topic again here.
I will say that as a Guild Leader/Raid Leader myself and someone who actually sits down and spends a lot of time crunching those stats and numbers to be the best I can as a player and to get the most out of raiding, I really enjoyed having access to that data while playing VG and I do not have a problem with it at all.
Parsers are very valuable to anyone who wants to better themselves and put a little bit of extra effort into their characters, raider especially make great use of these tools as do developers.This echoes my feelings pretty closely. Knowledge is power, and I like to have as much of it as possible.
That said, I do have to say one thing. Please devs, Brad, whomever - make your chat logs extremely explicit in the information they provide. There are already amazing parsing engines available and it would be super cool if we could have chat logs that are written in close to real time so we can parse in real time.
The API for Advanced Combat Tracker (amazing parsing program that is used across many games) is publicly available, so if your developers could take a peek at that while writing the code for combat feedback, it'd certainly make the gaming community that much more satisfied with the game. Vanguard left a lot to be desired in terms of precise information/formatting, which lead to issues when abilities got added later in the game.
I agree completely: Knowledge is power.
A combat log that you can parse is a 'it is here if you want to use it'. Those that want to use it will and those who don't, won't. Will it affect the average person on a daily basis? Mostly likely not. But there is a subset of the population who love numbers, love seeing the effects of even a minor change. To us, such numbers do not detract from the wonder and beauty of the game rather it adds to our enjoyment. Knowing how everything works makes you appreciate it all the more.
I very much enjoyed today's live twitch demo, thanks for being so open about the development process.
During the session I noticed combat log information included on-screen, so I went ahead and started work on an Advanced Combat Tracker plugin. Here is some feedback about the structure of the log data that hopefully will be useful:
1) Ideally, each distinct action will be encoded on its own combat line with a timestamp so that it can be parsed with simple Regex. I noticed that critical hit text preceded the damage that actually landed, i.e right now it is:
An Orc brigand scored a critical hit!
An Orc Brigand hits Joppa for 30 damage!
But this would be easier to parse:
[2015-03-11 16:41:02] An Orc Brigand critically hits Joppa for 30 damage!
or:
[2015-03-11 16:41:02] Critical! An Orc Brigand hits Joppa for 30 damage!
It may not be possible to include everything in one line - for example, proc effects or aoe damage/buffs. For multi-lines, if it includes the actor, the target, and the ability name in each line, that may be enough to work with.
2) If you can include the spell/ability name, damage type (physical, fire, blunt, etc.) in the same line as the damage, that will provide richer information to the parser. One possibility:
[2015-03-11 16:45:37] You hit An Orc Bruiser with Ice Spike for 39 points of Cold damage.
3)It looks like DoTs are in the game, but it was hard to tell whether their damage was included in the combat log. If not, adding it will help people have a better grasp on their total damage. Something like this perhaps:
[2015-03-11 16:45:37] Your Leaking Wound hits an Orc Bruiser for 10 points of physical damage.
If the Dev team has any problems or concerns with a third-party log reading program, please let me know and I'll discontinue / delete my work.
Exactly what Grayven said. Having a very solid syntax is integral if you intend to support this at all, for numerous reasons.
One of the best reasons is that if all of the combat chat feedback follows a very precise syntax, it is trivially easy to parse abilities that are added into the game later by employing Regex. If the combat feedback is too jumbled (like Vanguard) then you get into the shitty situation where you have to manually add all of the abilities with their various syntaxes to the program on an individual basis to get anywhere.
I still say that this needs to be supported. A 17 year old game like EQ allows me to parse it, so I see no valid reason why Pantheon shouldn't.
It's entirely up to the community, rather than the devs, regarding how parsing is used. Meaning, if they provide the numbers, then people will use it in whatever way they want and there's nothing that can be done about it. There will be all sorts of tools to use. Whether they are in-game plug-ins or other UI elements or whatever doesn't matter. People can just use a separate screen or most programs provide an overlay.
My point is that there's no in-between. You either make the info available and give up all control or you don't make any of it available.
Sooo.. if they're made available:
Devs - please go all out and provide as much accuracy as possible (DoTs and DD and melee) and for everyone in the group/raid - not just those close to you or whatever.
Everyone else - understand that the devs will have no control over how they're used or where they're used or whether someone judges you by them. One they're sent to the log file all control is lost and it's up to the players.
(fwiw, I like parses - They're a useful tool to improve myself and see how I compare to others. It's a way for me to see if I can improve. That said, I don't carry it to the extreme - and I avoid those that do - they're no fun anyway.)
Until the wheel is re-invented by a prodigy game/design lead, the system we are stuck with (with its countless flaws and issues) entails a certain logic and a certain commitment to some very specific details.
Tools that are almost a 'must' in order to make the best out of said details (it gets complicated..we are only human..) need not be questioned unless yet again, someone comes up with an even more practical variation that can replace them.. it is just like the /inspect tool necessity we were discussing in that recent thread here; not to everyone's liking (not mine's either), certainly with its own inherent dangers, but a necessity nonetheless because "core philosophy = unchanged". It is what it is.
So (this is all in my opinion of course) what should be discussed is whether we need to worry about said inherent dangers i hinted at above. We've all seen them; and while i appreciate Ben's honestly believing that "this won't happen here", i at least wouldn't swear on it.. So perhaps the focus should move to where the Pantheon line is drawn, how/by what standards the balance is defined. So that we know where we stand in advance and hopefuly exclude the possibility of "bad" behaviours/toxic communities or groups:
i) Yes to parsing, but who's and how? ie, need a consent be given? None perhaps? Invasive and non-invasive, that's a big difference*. And it can be either.
ii) How about addon support/automating it? That's a big can of worms too*, hopefuly i need not give examples, we've all experienced them even in meaningless/trivial group content, let alone anything serious; there's just bound to be that one guy..
iii) How about other ingame systems encouraging or bolstering said negative mentality*? Such as achievements for example. Do not mistake them as random in regard to the above.. they too serve in defining the "Do-s" from the "Don't-s"; "I did this, you haven't" / "Link ach or gtfo". Nothing to do with parsing, everything to do with that same negative mentality*.
*potentially. Emphasis on that.
About all the above, each may have their own opinion.. each may think "we" will or will not use them so.. No right and wrong, no way of proving who's who, so no reason for arguments.. No tool is 'evil'. Parsers included. It's the hand. And you cannot predict what each and every hand will do, so you set the rules down. Ideally anyway, lol.. So i'd eventually like to know VR's definition of rules.
The veil of anonymity the internet gives fosters toxicity. Unless we're going to go full-Korea and start requiring ID #'s to log in to our games, there is nothing you can do about it.
Removing cool features from a game because of a few douchebags isn't really a good strategy. I could just as easily say we shouldn't make this game at all because video games in general are a magnet for douchebags.
As always, I believe the only reasonable solution is to give people the option and deal with the douchebags on an individual basis.
Too easy, too vague a reply, too close to the actual practice of so many companies in the past.. :)
- We acknowledge things can go bad/toxic
- We (indirectly) acknowledge it's too much work dealing with it
- We succumb in a theoretical 'give players the freedon' non-solution that self-fulfills our own prophecy.. that of the community eventually becoming toxic
You've never come across that before? :)
Who said we need remove tools so as to assure quality? Who said giving options sans regulation does not, almost always, amount to the majorities taking the easy/bad way out? Or more importantly, that the majorities taking said way out affects the whole server eventually? Have we ever even discussed HOW this all can be regulated?
I acknowledge thing can go bad/toxic, yes, that is a given.
I disagree that it's too much work to deal with.
I'm not succumbing to ****. I do not see a toxic community as an inevitable result of parsing.
I never made any mention of regulation, or lack thereof. It's trivially easy to "regulate", and 95% of the regulation comes from the community itself.
You missed my point and in two separate aspects. Regardless, try not to take things personally; your comment was used as a basis for showcasing a scenario often encountered in this genre. The use of plural rather than singular should have been a clear sign i'd think.
Personally, I really don't understand why people put up with "that one guy". Leave the group or kick him. Is there really no other choice than to stay with him? It's clear you have different ideas about what the game is about - so different that it's not worth being miserable for.
In other words, Seriously, what's wrong with gtfo? (and by that, I mean: getting tfo)
I certainly want to see you being able to export chat logs and damage reports for use in parsers etc. It just gives you a way to test different weapon / gear loadouts on your character as well as letting you adjust your playstyle if you want to do that.
But the biggest advantage is being able to copy quest text nice and easily. So much easier than taking a screenshot and posting it on a forum. Sometimes you just need a little help from guildies and pasting a bit of text from a chat log is so much more useful than needing to take a screenshot of a dialogue window.
I'm kind of on the fence about other people seeing my numbers. Some people could use it to give some helpful advice. Some people could use it to just be a ******. Time will tell I suppose. From what I have seen the Pantheon community seems nice and respectful of each other (at the moment at least) which is always a good sign so hopefully I'm just wrong on that front.
Kilsin said:Zlambit said:Oh i wish it would be like that Kilsin :)
Unfortunately usefull tools are also easy to abuse, as for the combat logs, i dont have a problem with those, it's the ability to parse others, and then paste results into chat for X purpose i dislike, I guess to me good solution would be a 3rd party or inhouse developed parser with the option to share info with other players parsers or not as an easy toggle, that would give both the number ignorers-self improvers and the raid math-heads what they want.
PS. I got 0 idea if its even possible to make something like that :)
Hmm not sure what is going on with quotes!
I understand the concern some may have, but it isn't compulsory to use this info, if someone says to you that you are not doing a good enough job, I would say goodbye to them and find friendlier people to play with.
As a Guild and Raid Leader myself, I would never hold numbers or poor performance against someone, it would be my job to help them fit into a position that they are comfortable with and that they can manage and lean on my more skilled and experienced players to step up and help carry.
If anyone used numbers against me, I would drop group, drop raid, leave guild etc. as those are not people I would want to continue playing with. The parsers though, are extremely useful to many of us and in the right hands, they are a benefit to any player/guild/raid/group but I honestly do not think this will be much of a problem in Pantheon with this community :)
Agree with this completely. I'm all for parses. Ultimately, it's up to people to determine if they use or abuse the data that they provide and also up to people to decide who to associate with. If someone wants to run a hardcore guild and be hardasses about parses then that's fine. If you don't like it you can join a different guild and that's fine as well.
I think in many cases encounters are not straight forward tank and spank anyway so DPS numbers don't tell the whole story. Also, in a game like this with diverse classes/roles it will not be enough to use DPS to determine someone's value in a raid or group. I'm sure there will be buff classes, off-tanks, tanks, primary healers, secondary healers, crowd control etc..It wouldn't make sense to judge based purely on DPS alone.
I view parsing as a tool to reveal potential DPS. In EQ2 or WoW I would use parsing tools like ACT to get my potential DPS up as high as possible so that when the time came in a particular fight that I was needed to provide DPS I could do it most effectively. Some encounters would be all about DPS and parses were more clear cut but many times you have to do other things or things happen that break up or dilute the parse so it doesn't really matter. It's also useful to develop strats when you can break down encounters by dmg type.