I don't think anyone feels that creating an MMO is a simple task. I don't believe that anyone is like "Those guys just sit around the office playing foosball all day while making megabucks!". Most reasonable people know that time is limited. None of my points were "You guys need to do this!" so much as "A lot of people expect this these days as it seems to be the way things are trending for similar games. So expect a lot of people questioning why more information is not available."
I read a bunch of forums during the period where this was in Kickstarter mode and I can tell you, ignoring the posts containing Brad hate, the number one complaint I saw from anyone was the lack of information provided and the fact that the information that was provided was shallow and/or generic. Not enough hype was generated and not enough backers responded. So regardless of what anyone says there *IS* a business impact to radio silence. *shrug*
jezebel said:
I don't think anyone feels that creating an MMO is a simple task. I don't believe that anyone is like "Those guys just sit around the office playing foosball all day while making megabucks!". Most reasonable people know that time is limited. None of my points were "You guys need to do this!" so much as "A lot of people expect this these days as it seems to be the way things are trending for similar games. So expect a lot of people questioning why more information is not available."
I read a bunch of forums during the period where this was in Kickstarter mode and I can tell you, ignoring the posts containing Brad hate, the number one complaint I saw from anyone was the lack of information provided and the fact that the information that was provided was shallow and/or generic. Not enough hype was generated and not enough backers responded. So regardless of what anyone says there *IS* a business impact to radio silence. *shrug*
The video from earlier this year and the screenshots are enough update for me. I saw the progress, it looked great, but creating more similar updates without further progress or substance will only put them under greater scrutiny. People are pretty harsh if you don't have something substantial to reveal, so at this point pumping out little updates can do more harm than good. Talk is cheap, people want results.
I guess my real thought is you have to look at it two ways based on whether or not they can generate enough hype to make a meaningful contribution to the development budget.
If they can then yea, hype the daylights out of it. Makes sense, but if the numbers are so small they don't even pay for the manpower to generate the hype then don't bother.
If your goal is not to make a meaningful contribution to the development budget then the hype this far from launch is not going to translate into anything over a year from now. Spend the resources on development, put together a plan as to when is the optimal time to generate hype (maybe when you have more to show you can get a more meaningful contribution out of the community).
I also think that secrecy is always good when you have good novel approaches to the genre. especially for the smaller player. Why give your much larger competitors a chance to implement your ideas before you can even release them. Suppose you have some novel approach to death that solves every problem and you are successful in hyping it. Now you've got everyone anticipating your game so they can try this new feature but you are a year and half from release. So then some game two months from release snatches up your idea, or worse yet Wow decides to capitalize on the idea you hyped and now you've lost your competitive edge.
Out of site, out of mind... sounds like a bad thing, but really, it's not. it gives them distance from the past. They needed a little distance to shed a former image that no longer exists with this project. I think their goal is to just make a huge splash when they are ready. I don't see the problem with it. They basically have to reintroduce themselves to the gaming community, it's best to do that when you have a lot to talk about. It takes time to do that right, that was something Brad learned the hard way. I'm all for the new approach.
jezebel said:
I read a bunch of forums during the period where this was in Kickstarter mode and I can tell you, ignoring the posts containing Brad hate, the number one complaint I saw from anyone was the lack of information provided and the fact that the information that was provided was shallow and/or generic. Not enough hype was generated and not enough backers responded. So regardless of what anyone says there *IS* a business impact to radio silence. *shrug*
Hmm, I wasn't around then, but I can do web searches and find things on you tube. I count no less than seven hour long Pantheon Round Table videos between March 3, 2014 and April 15, 2014. Combine that with multiple hour long Pantheon Develop Series, interviews with Brad, launch trailers etc. I listened to them all, they covered a vast array of topics on game mechanics, design philosophy, etc. Is this the lack of information that you're referring too.
Kayd,
Jez is right. We're past that time now, but probably the main cited reason for Kickstarter failure was lack of information during the course of the campaign.
I think Jez's main point is that Brad's contemporaries have a different approach which seemingly is working out well for them, and a big part of that approach is constant communication with the fanbase (which has lead to millions in crowd funding).
Pantheon is in a slightly different situation, so I understand their viewpoint. Before VR begins a new marketing strategy, they want something to show that will make people take them seriously. I think this is exactly what needs to be done. It will shut a lot of people up and VR can move forward with the development of their game, hopefully with renewed interest and financial backing.
Maric said:
Kayd,
Jez is right. We're past that time now, but probably the main cited reason for Kickstarter failure was lack of information during the course of the campaign.
I think Jez's main point is that Brad's contemporaries have a different approach which seemingly is working out well for them, and a big part of that approach is constant communication with the fanbase (which has lead to millions in crowd funding).
Pantheon is in a slightly different situation, so I understand their viewpoint. Before VR begins a new marketing strategy, they want something to show that will make people take them seriously. I think this is exactly what needs to be done. It will shut a lot of people up and VR can move forward with the development of their game, hopefully with renewed interest and financial backing.
You may be right. I was just trying to make the point that hour-long interviews with the developers being done weekly wasn't no information. Having listened to them all I was acutely aware of how much information was put out during the kickstarter. Now perhaps it wasn't visible enough, or well enough organized, or specific enough, or even the right information. So you and jez may be right. Compared to their contemporaries they were found lacking.
jezebel said:
I don't think anyone feels that creating an MMO is a simple task. I don't believe that anyone is like "Those guys just sit around the office playing foosball all day while making megabucks!". Most reasonable people know that time is limited. None of my points were "You guys need to do this!" so much as "A lot of people expect this these days as it seems to be the way things are trending for similar games. So expect a lot of people questioning why more information is not available."
I read a bunch of forums during the period where this was in Kickstarter mode and I can tell you, ignoring the posts containing Brad hate, the number one complaint I saw from anyone was the lack of information provided and the fact that the information that was provided was shallow and/or generic. Not enough hype was generated and not enough backers responded. So regardless of what anyone says there *IS* a business impact to radio silence. *shrug*
I was a very active follower during and from even before the Kickstarter. I can honestly tell you that there was plenty of information provided and lots of communication with Brad and the developers from back then. I felt the information was as specific as could be made in that state of development.
Zarriya said:
I was a very active follower during and from even before the Kickstarter. I can honestly tell you that there was plenty of information provided and lots of communication with Brad and the developers from back then. I felt the information was as specific as could be made in that state of development.
As was I - communication is very different than information. Maric and Jezebel are right - there was plenty of noise of how great the game was going to be (Roundtables, etc.) without any substance (with the exception of Vhalen's Lore4). There wasn't any tangible, substantial information produced during the Kickstarter, or during the first 6+ months of this site launch, or really even until Joppa came on board with the team that a game was actually being produced. There were a few pieces of concept art (which I believe mainly are scrapped) and a pre-pre alpha video with mainly placeholder models (that I think has been re-visioned as well). And, I bolded your last sentence and specifically "in that state of development," as that was the issue during the Kickstarter - there was no or very little development and no tangible proof to back it up.
With that said, Convo is right, Pantheon is in a unique situation now that they are slowly regaining trust and rebuilding a reputation and they have to relaunch the project to a jaded audience to get them to buy back in. So, I'm ok with no random screenshots at the moment as I believe I have enough trust in this team that they're doing something behind the scenes. And, hopefully, the update projected for September/October will be able to deliver a successful relaunch of Pantheon to the masses (if the update only produces a few screenshots, this thread will have more merit).
However, if the update is substantial - I am hoping a timeline/roadmap for development outlining development goals, etc. will be released and I would agree at that point the updates should be more frequent/transparent.
Until that occurs, I'm willing to be patient.
Zarriya,
I've also been around since the earliest stages. I agree with you on this statement:
"I felt the information was as specific as could be made in that state of development." I think the key issue was showing something tangible. Had Brad and company maybe held off 6 months and come to the table with a working prototype things probably would have gone differently. But who knows? I think a lot of people never got off the fence because they felt Pantheon's game design was more of a concept then, being created on the fly, and didn't want to take the risk. Because I'm a big fan of Brad's past work, I was willing to gamble (as all that are here today chose to do). I think had things been organized a little differently, prior to hitting Kickstarter, the mountain would not have been as difficult to climb.
Anyway, no one here is bashing Brad or VR. We're all here because we support this project and the team behind it. I think it's healthy to debate what could have been done differently, and to provide examples of other projects that for whatever reason did not face the same hurdles and scrutiny that Pantheon did (and does to this day).
I also wholeheartedly agree with Kilsin that VR deserves credit for turning things around. We're still here. Big news around the corner. I'm excited for a new lease on life for the project, the fans, and all of the people working hard to make it happen.
This is getting a bit off topic now guys, the OP was simply asking what happened to the updates and podcasts and those questions were answered. The big update is not too far away now, so let's continue to move forward instead of backwards, or as Joppa would say "Onward!" :)
Kayd said:
Hmm, I wasn't around then, but I can do web searches and find things on you tube. I count no less than seven hour long Pantheon Round Table videos between March 3, 2014 and April 15, 2014. Combine that with multiple hour long Pantheon Develop Series, interviews with Brad, launch trailers etc. I listened to them all, they covered a vast array of topics on game mechanics, design philosophy, etc. Is this the lack of information that you're referring too.
Please keep in mind the Kickstarter ended in February. Most of what I recall reading were complaints that all of the information provided was essentially tiny lore blurbs here and there and seemed hastily thrown together rather than having been carefully planned out in advance of the crowdfunding campaign. These things would be what you would expect on a normal game page for an MMO being developed by a major studio more so than a crowdfunding effort where you are really trying to sell your game. If that makes sense.
Please understand that any comments I have made in this thread are not attacking Pantheon or the dev team. I am simply stating my perception of how other people could be influenced by the apparent lack of updates. How they choose to present themselves to the gaming community is clearly their prerogative. I guess I just feel that a little bit of PR could gain them more investment and community interest. As stated above however, if what they show is not well received it could have the opposite impact. *shrug* For me personally I want this type of game to be created and as such I have invested some dollars into this one. If the end result is best served by being in the dark in hopes of having a sleeper hit then more power to them lol.
