Tralyan said:Global chat is one of those that I'm completely on the fence about, and one of the few mechanics in a game that I believe one can actually use the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument.
...
However, I do understand the argument of keeping chat within the zone, and I do agree. I think it's a weighing of pros and cons here.
Do you want a localized chat that encourages a subculture and creates an identity with that zone? Is that more important to you?
Or do you want a global chat that promotes a more general line of communication, and encourages socializing within the entirety of the game?
Both have their merits. Both speak to what a lot of the people here are looking for. Both a game with diverse races/classes where individuality and teamwork coincide for a more immersive experience, and a game where the social aspect is one of the, if not THE most important aspect, as it is one missing from many newer MMO's.
...
All that said, I'm for localized chat channels. If Global chat channels are included, I'd make them up to the players to create.
The "if you don't like it, don't use it" is just as problematic for chat as it is for any other form of convenience. Its not a realistic suggestion. Any player with a competitive bone in his or her body will be forced to utilize convenience if given the option. It basically means everyone suffers in one way or another. If you choose to abstain, you are at a disadvantage. If you choose to utilize [insert convenience mechanic here], you lose whatever semblance of realism or challenge you would have otherwise had without it.
Dullahan said:The "if you don't like it, don't use it" is just as problematic for chat as it is for any other form of convenience. Its not a realistic suggestion. Any player with a competitive bone in his or her body will be forced to utilize convenience if given the option. It basically means everyone suffers in one way or another. If you choose to abstain, you are at a disadvantage. If you choose to utilize [insert convenience mechanic here], you lose whatever semblance of realism or challenge you would have otherwise had without it.
Exactly - there are some options that can be toggleable such as floating combat numbers versus numbers in a text chatbox.
But, items that can offer a competitive advantage can't be on the table as toggelable. It's an either/or. Either Pantheon requires it, or it doesn't for all. Anyone that has any desire to want to better themselves or be "the best" (or at least the best they can be) will be forced to use convenience if given the option.
@Dullahan & Raidan
First, I'd like to stress that I'm on the side of localized zone chat.
I am genuinely curious about what the competitive advantages you're referring to are, however. If we use the premise that Pantheon will be closer to EQ than to, say, Rift or LOTRO, then I guess I don't see it.
In these newer MMO's with their dungeon finders that instantly teleport you to a spot, then Global chat most certainly gives people the advantage of finding groups quicker and with no negative effects, since you could just teleport to the dungeon and teleport back when it's over. But in a game like EQ, you would still be forced to locate a Druid or a Wizard for a teleport. You'd still be forced to travel to the point if none were available.
Are you saying that the ability to simply locate those groups that aren't in the zone you're in is a competitive advantage? I suppose I can see that line of reasoning, but I feel like the benefits of that outweight the negatives of having an optional, playermade, global chat.
Auction Houses, Fast Travel, Mounts, Cash Shops, Dungeon Finders - These are all things that I 100% agree that the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument is useless. But the difference between those features and the global chat that helps you locate groups, is that those features retract from the social aspect of the game that we all want. The Global chat benefits that aspect, and I'd say it does so in a big way.
Again, I'm pro localized chat. Just trying to wrap my head around your reasoning. I agree with the ambience of localized chat over global chat. I agree with creating a subculture within a zone. I agree with every other point made so far when it comes to localized chat. I have a hard time agreeing with the argument that global chat, in a game like Pantheon (EQ), would give a competitive advantage to players.
I do feel like this is an area we can improve upon while still maintaining the old school feel.
Take EQ2/ Vanguard for example. I loved the chat bubbles as I knew who was saying what and wasnt always paying attention to the chat box. I also feel like if you look at WOW they integrated visualized, and vocalized emotes in certain key words like LOL where your character would then laugh.
Also look at FFXIV. As a Tank I loved the ability to add group/ raid wide sound effects into the chat text which plays an audible alert. I would usually attatch these to commands in text alert macros for raids, and bosses so people knew what to do.
I feel like we could improve upon all of this while reducing Eastern chat box clutter. Say maybe certain chat would could convey an expression on your toons face, or his body language in the game like :( his shoulders could drop and he could look sad etc. While we all love the oldschool box we can keep it the same while adding in more functionality and more immesion into the game.
Dullahan said:Cromulent said:Dullahan said:Xaleban said:Hate starting new threads on old topics so decided to bring this one back to life =)
In regards to chat systems in MMOs the one thing that I have really hated is global channels.. General/LFG/Trade etc. Am I the only one who has missed the EQ style of chat? Where you could /shout /ooc /say etc? It made each zone a lot more personable. The chat channels that are in todays MMOs drives me absolutely crazy. Having chat channels where everyone in game can sit in a particular channel and just chat away with each other no matter where they are needs to go. I would love to see the old school EQ style chat where each zone has its own and you have different ways of communicating in that zone as i mentioned above. I would love to see a new EC where people have to work to sell their wares and not be in an xp grp sitting in the Trade channel trying to sell stuff. It is always a pain turning them on and off then forgetting you turned one off and having to figure out how to turn it back on. Not to mention if you are in more than one channel trying to sort thru all the spam or having to create multiple chat boxes to be able to sort it out. Bring back the old school EQ chat!
I agree. All chat should be area or at most, zone-wide. If people want to talk server wide, they can add chat rooms for every server at the login screen. When I'm in game, I want to be immersed and that means not seeing people use the server as a glorfied chat room.
So you'd be against guild created chat channels as well then? Such as a healer channel and a tank channel for raids? Also what about officer and leader chat channels for the running of the guild?
Honestly I don't see the problem with global chat channels. If you don't like them then just leave them or filter them to a hidden chat window that you can bring up to the front if you ever want to see what is going on in them. That way the people who do like them are happy and you who doesn't like them is also happy.
Outside of guild or group chat, yes I am against global chat channels, especially by default.
I don't think the game should encourage global communication. In a game where locations mean something, races and lore create a sense of identity, and travel takes time, ideally localized communities should emerge that provide players with unique experiences and even subcultures. Simply put, globalized chat is in direct opposition to the concept of a virtual world.
Does anyone remember what it was like playing different races originally in EverQuest? There was something of a cultural identity and patriotism among players from different places. There was even a sort of informal social strata based on level ranges and playstyles. Playing a dwarf was different than playing a dark elf. Perhaps its a different time and we won't have that again aside from RP servers, but I think the game should make every effort to encourage that sort of play. I believe it should at least be the objective from a design standpoint, even if many people choose not to partake in that aspect of the game.
This^
ie: When you are alone and out in the wilderness in Pantheon, you will not be sparking up conversation with people... only when you enter, or near a city, will a player start to get the town cryer and guard speak, then as you get within sight of these cities, you see & hear all the licensed vendors. As you enter into the City anyone can speak openly...
Having regional and localized public chat... is the only way to go.
Also, those LFG..? In any town, village, fort, city there is a pub or tavern. Once there a new chat window opens up for those who are seeking each other.
Tralyan said:@Dullahan & Raidan
First, I'd like to stress that I'm on the side of localized zone chat.
I am genuinely curious about what the competitive advantages you're referring to are, however. If we use the premise that Pantheon will be closer to EQ than to, say, Rift or LOTRO, then I guess I don't see it.
In these newer MMO's with their dungeon finders that instantly teleport you to a spot, then Global chat most certainly gives people the advantage of finding groups quicker and with no negative effects, since you could just teleport to the dungeon and teleport back when it's over. But in a game like EQ, you would still be forced to locate a Druid or a Wizard for a teleport. You'd still be forced to travel to the point if none were available.
Are you saying that the ability to simply locate those groups that aren't in the zone you're in is a competitive advantage? I suppose I can see that line of reasoning, but I feel like the benefits of that outweight the negatives of having an optional, playermade, global chat.
Auction Houses, Fast Travel, Mounts, Cash Shops, Dungeon Finders - These are all things that I 100% agree that the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument is useless. But the difference between those features and the global chat that helps you locate groups, is that those features retract from the social aspect of the game that we all want. The Global chat benefits that aspect, and I'd say it does so in a big way.
Again, I'm pro localized chat. Just trying to wrap my head around your reasoning. I agree with the ambience of localized chat over global chat. I agree with creating a subculture within a zone. I agree with every other point made so far when it comes to localized chat. I have a hard time agreeing with the argument that global chat, in a game like Pantheon (EQ), would give a competitive advantage to players.
Pantheon is an adult game.
If you are truly LOOKING FOR A GROUP. It's respectful to not be wasting other's time. That means you would NOT NEED A PORT, you would already be equiped and at the dungeon head, of where you plan on grouping at. There will be local meeting hubs of activity and from there will nurture and spawn groups for local activities. You have to frame your mind around Pantheon, not EQ. Do you think Global chat will ever be needed..?
The idea that a Wizard is going to place you within 2m of "your dungeon of choice for the evening" is a bit far fetching. In any outing, your character will have to come prepared. Buying rations, torches and reagents will all come into play.
The advantage will always go towards the proactive players whom are already in the dungeon or cities LFG, verses the one broadcasting himself another continent away. Global speak is senseless.
Hieromonk said:Tralyan said:@Dullahan & Raidan
First, I'd like to stress that I'm on the side of localized zone chat.
I am genuinely curious about what the competitive advantages you're referring to are, however. If we use the premise that Pantheon will be closer to EQ than to, say, Rift or LOTRO, then I guess I don't see it.
In these newer MMO's with their dungeon finders that instantly teleport you to a spot, then Global chat most certainly gives people the advantage of finding groups quicker and with no negative effects, since you could just teleport to the dungeon and teleport back when it's over. But in a game like EQ, you would still be forced to locate a Druid or a Wizard for a teleport. You'd still be forced to travel to the point if none were available.
Are you saying that the ability to simply locate those groups that aren't in the zone you're in is a competitive advantage? I suppose I can see that line of reasoning, but I feel like the benefits of that outweight the negatives of having an optional, playermade, global chat.
Auction Houses, Fast Travel, Mounts, Cash Shops, Dungeon Finders - These are all things that I 100% agree that the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument is useless. But the difference between those features and the global chat that helps you locate groups, is that those features retract from the social aspect of the game that we all want. The Global chat benefits that aspect, and I'd say it does so in a big way.
Again, I'm pro localized chat. Just trying to wrap my head around your reasoning. I agree with the ambience of localized chat over global chat. I agree with creating a subculture within a zone. I agree with every other point made so far when it comes to localized chat. I have a hard time agreeing with the argument that global chat, in a game like Pantheon (EQ), would give a competitive advantage to players.
Pantheon is an adult game.
If you are truly LOOKING FOR A GROUP. It's respectful to not be wasting other's time. That means you would NOT NEED A PORT, you would already be equiped and at the dungeon head, of where you plan on grouping at. There will be hubs of activity. From there will nest & nurture and spawn groups. You have to frame your mind around Pantheon, not EQ. Do you think Global chat will ever be needed..?
The idea that a Wizard is going to place you within 2m of "your dungeon of choice for the evening" is a bit far fetching. In any outing, your character will have to come prepared. Buying rations, torches and reagents will all come into play.
The advantage will always go towards the proactive players whom are already in the dungeon or cities LFG, verses the one broadcasting himself another continent away. Global speak is senseless.
Not quite sure what that has to do with this being an adult game.
How many times have we seen, especially in EQ and Vanguard, people discuss how hard it is to find groups? How many time has the advice been given, "Start your own group". How many times does starting your own group involve doing a /who all and sending tells to whoever you can to see if they'd be interested in exploration. I've done it countless times in many MMO's. Countless times those were people in other parts of the world that had to locate ports, or travel, or do what they could to get to the location specified for grouping.
What is disrespectful about locating people to join you for a group? What's disrespectful about putting your hand out to random people across the server and asking if they'd like to join you? What's disrespectful about "/Tell GandalfXX Howdy! Would you like to join me in Guk?" and GandalfXX either accepting, and travelling as necessary, or declining? The same applies to global chat.
Global chat will not be needed, obviously. But we're all making this assumption that Pantheon will have this huge playerbase where zones will be chalk full of individuals looking for group. We're all crossing our fingers that it won't be the empiness of Vanguard, where you would be forced to send /tells to randoms throughout the server, hoping they'd join you at Khegor's End. And if that's the case, you might as well just have Global Chat.
Look, I'll say it again as often as I need to. I am PRO LOCALIZED ZONE CHAT and AGAINST GLOBAL CHAT. I AGREE with almost everything people have said that are for Localized Chat. I just understand the appeal, and the benefits of global chat. I'm frankly kind of surprised that all of us that are here hoping for a more social MMO, and looking for every opporunity to increase that social aspect, are so against a mechanic that would achieve that goal so dramatically.
=Edit= And increasing that social aspect is NEVER senseless. That's an obtuse statement.
Tralyan said:Auction Houses, Fast Travel, Mounts, Cash Shops, Dungeon Finders - These are all things that I 100% agree that the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument is useless. But the difference between those features and the global chat that helps you locate groups, is that those features retract from the social aspect of the game that we all want. The Global chat benefits that aspect, and I'd say it does so in a big way.
It could be argued that in game where player reputation is a core tenent it is more valuable to know people whom you can rely on, seek them out wherever they may be with direct tells, and perhaps run across others in the process that you add to your growing list of allies, than it is to have a global shout of LFG.
It could also be pointed out that lacking the instant travel (or even quick travel) options, getting accepted to a group that's on the other side of the gameworld, and taking more than an hour to get there could cause as many problems as it means to solve. Groups waiting around with a reserved slot for long periods while people in the area are arriving and seeking a group would undoubtedly find more than a few of those individuals traveling to a group find they arrive and their slot is alraedy filled by another.
And this is all beside the fact that the more people that are in one channel, the more bickering, trolling and being your basic petulent children will exist in that channel.
Feyshtey said:
Tralyan said:Auction Houses, Fast Travel, Mounts, Cash Shops, Dungeon Finders - These are all things that I 100% agree that the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument is useless. But the difference between those features and the global chat that helps you locate groups, is that those features retract from the social aspect of the game that we all want. The Global chat benefits that aspect, and I'd say it does so in a big way.
It could be argued that in game where player reputation is a core tenent it is more valuable to know people whom you can rely on, seek them out wherever they may be with direct tells, and perhaps run across others in the process that you add to your growing list of allies, than it is to have a global shout of LFG.
I could almost agree with this statement, however reputation as a core tenant can also be applied to Global Chat as well. Reputation can be a factor in all kinds of mechanics and applications. If only by garnaring a reputation of being an ****** in global versus being a decent guy in global. And this would not take away anything from reputation garnered by the other ways you mentioned.
Feyshtey said:It could also be pointed out that lacking the instant travel (or even quick travel) options, getting accepted to a group that's on the other side of the gameworld, and taking more than an hour to get there could cause as many problems as it means to solve. Groups waiting around with a reserved slot for long periods while people in the area are arriving and seeking a group would undoubtedly find more than a few of those individuals traveling to a group find they arrive and their slot is alraedy filled by another.
What problems could this cause? Genuine question, not meant to be snarky. I simply don't see it.
There are so many people, myself among them, that advocate the community policing itself but when it comes to the core tenant of this game - GROUPING - we stumble at the idea of doing so. So you see a person in Global Chat advertize themselves, you send them a /tell, you find out where they are. If it's too far, or if they don't have a port handy, you move on and locate another person. Or let them know you'll keep them on standby, but if a closer LFG'er comes into play you'll have to add them to the list. You work it out amongst yourselves. That's what we all want, right? To create a community unique to Pantheon but reminiscent of old? I truly believe many here are seeing problems that don't exist.
Feyshtey said:And this is all beside the fact that the more people that are in one channel, the more bickering, trolling and being your basic petulent children will exist in that channel.
And THIS is why. Global chat is a breeding ground of the crude, the obnoxious, and the boorish. We can all agree with that. I'm going to also go out on a limb, fly by the seat of my pants, and say that's the BIGGEST problem most people have with Global chat, but instead of using it as the basis of your argument, people instead create problems by making assumptions about a game that isn't even created yet. (I'm well aware that this is my putting words in people's mouth. I apologize for that. Call me out on it).
Again - and I feel I must reiterate this constantly! - I am for localized chat. I don't care about Global Chat. I just see why folks want it, and don't quite agree with many of the reasons here for not including it. I'm of the camp that thinks the ONLY reason to not have it is because it's like the PvP of Chatting. It just draws the type of crowd that i'd rather not be with.
That's why I'd just turn the darn thing off.
@Tralyan
When responding to Dullahan's post, I was referring to more of convenience features in general, as many will argue, well if you don't like it, toggle it off - problem solved - when it's not that easy.
As far as the global chat goes (not looking at it from the immersion angle which I wouldn't want it for either) there are a few things I use it for that are advantageous over localized chat. It doesn't provide near the competitive advantage of some other features admittedly. Using EQ as an example:
1. Global Trade Channel. I would have cornered the market on Banded Armor! And also would have been able to find my Bone Bladed Claymore.
2. Looking for Groups - yes you would have still had to travel, but you would be able to find people easier. I know some would argue this as a positive - but, I'm arguing that I would need to use it - not whether this specifically is positive/negative.
3. Information sharing in general. Less things are mysterious when I can /general Where do I find Quest Giver A?. Yes, I could /shout, or alt tab, and find out, but, I have less of a temptation when I have the ease at my fingertips. But, again, if it was there....
4. Randomness. Most of the time general chat is garbage, but, sometimes I have picked up tips/tricks/game information/upcoming events/etc. just from listening to it. Also, you may have the random person giving away something you need or selling the item you've been looking for. etc.
Mainly though, I would use it for trade, groups, and information. And yes, because I can be "that" competitive, I would leave it on because I wouldn't want to miss out even if 99% of the noise is garbage.
Why do you need a tank channel, a healer channel, officer channel, a puller channel etc? Most every raiding guild requires Ventrilo, Teamspeak, or some other form of chat software. I raided on EQ for many years without even needing a voice chat program granted it is the norm now and does make thing easier. I guess I am not totally against options for this but the point I was originally making was the whole Global chat thing. There doesnt need to be any kind of Global channels, whether it be LFG, General, or anything else. If you are lfg then put your lfg tag up and if someone sends you an invite then you find a port and head there. Having a LFG global channel isnt going to get you there any faster and those type channels just turn into another troll fest, e peen, bashing ground with people arguing and insulting one another. If you want to sell, then gather your items you want to sell and head to the market area to sell. I just dont see any need for any of those channels and will be so disappointed if they are added. They bring out the worst in people and even suck good people into the bashing.
Zone-only chats just create a much more friendly atmosphere and deter trolls from having a place to lurk. Mainly you just see people asking for help and getting helpful responses from others. For instance, in EQ or even P99 you very rarely saw trolls spamming a zone and if they did they rarely got responses and instead got a /ignore. Global channels entice people to respond to these trolls whereas they never wouldve seen their comments in the first place unless they were in the same zone.
Xaleban said:Why do you need a tank channel, a healer channel, officer channel, a puller channel etc?
So that those groups can communicate with each other in private. Healer channel is obvious. You need a complete heal chain in operation and they organise it themselves in the healer chat channel without spamming the rest of the raid. The cleric class leader then just sends a tell to the raid leader saying they are ready. Tanks need to decide who has things like defensive disc up at any one time and who has the best gear for a certain enounter so they choose who is going to tank the next raid mob. Officer channel is obvious. If there is a complaint about a guild member officers need a place to discuss how to deal with the problem and how to handle any punishments that might need to be given out. All of these things are pretty obvious and they make guild life so much easier. It also helps new guild members of a certain class learn tips from older players who have more experience. I absolutely think this needs to be possible in game from launch.
Xaleban said:Most every raiding guild requires Ventrilo, Teamspeak, or some other form of chat software.
When we raided in EQ we did it all without VoIP.
Xaleban said:I raided on EQ for many years without even needing a voice chat program granted it is the norm now and does make thing easier. I guess I am not totally against options for this but the point I was originally making was the whole Global chat thing. There doesnt need to be any kind of Global channels, whether it be LFG, General, or anything else. If you are lfg then put your lfg tag up and if someone sends you an invite then you find a port and head there. Having a LFG global channel isnt going to get you there any faster and those type channels just turn into another troll fest, e peen, bashing ground with people arguing and insulting one another. If you want to sell, then gather your items you want to sell and head to the market area to sell. I just dont see any need for any of those channels and will be so disappointed if they are added. They bring out the worst in people and even suck good people into the bashing.
Zone-only chats just create a much more friendly atmosphere and deter trolls from having a place to lurk. Mainly you just see people asking for help and getting helpful responses from others. For instance, in EQ or even P99 you very rarely saw trolls spamming a zone and if they did they rarely got responses and instead got a /ignore. Global channels entice people to respond to these trolls whereas they never wouldve seen their comments in the first place unless they were in the same zone.
I can agree that some global chat channels do end up being a bit of a cesspool and if the player population don't want them then that is fine. I won't be too annoyed if they are not in the game.
But as I said before players absolutely must be able to create their own password protected chat channels in order to allow guilds to organise themselves in the way that they want. Having class specific chat channels in a guild is a very common thing to have and allows classes to organise themselves on raids. I already discussed why at the top of this post.
Raidan said:@Tralyan
When responding to Dullahan's post, I was referring to more of convenience features in general, as many will argue, well if you don't like it, toggle it off - problem solved - when it's not that easy.
As far as the global chat goes (not looking at it from the immersion angle which I wouldn't want it for either) there are a few things I use it for that are advantageous over localized chat. It doesn't provide near the competitive advantage of some other features admittedly. Using EQ as an example:
1. Global Trade Channel. I would have cornered the market on Banded Armor! And also would have been able to find my Bone Bladed Claymore.
2. Looking for Groups - yes you would have still had to travel, but you would be able to find people easier. I know some would argue this as a positive - but, I'm arguing that I would need to use it - not whether this specifically is positive/negative.
3. Information sharing in general. Less things are mysterious when I can /general Where do I find Quest Giver A?. Yes, I could /shout, or alt tab, and find out, but, I have less of a temptation when I have the ease at my fingertips. But, again, if it was there....
4. Randomness. Most of the time general chat is garbage, but, sometimes I have picked up tips/tricks/game information/upcoming events/etc. just from listening to it. Also, you may have the random person giving away something you need or selling the item you've been looking for. etc.
Mainly though, I would use it for trade, groups, and information. And yes, because I can be "that" competitive, I would leave it on because I wouldn't want to miss out even if 99% of the noise is garbage.
Raidan, not to get all bromance on you or anything, but your posts have always been thoughtful and polite, and I apperciate that. I find myself being unusually swayed to your points.
Especially in regards to crafting. I admit to not thinking about that. As someone who is all for the EC Tunnel like trading where /Auction is held in one zone and one zone only, Global chat would definitely change that. And so I concede.
Tralyan said:Hieromonk said:Tralyan said:@Dullahan & Raidan
First, I'd like to stress that I'm on the side of localized zone chat.
I am genuinely curious about what the competitive advantages you're referring to are, however. If we use the premise that Pantheon will be closer to EQ than to, say, Rift or LOTRO, then I guess I don't see it.
In these newer MMO's with their dungeon finders that instantly teleport you to a spot, then Global chat most certainly gives people the advantage of finding groups quicker and with no negative effects, since you could just teleport to the dungeon and teleport back when it's over. But in a game like EQ, you would still be forced to locate a Druid or a Wizard for a teleport. You'd still be forced to travel to the point if none were available.
Are you saying that the ability to simply locate those groups that aren't in the zone you're in is a competitive advantage? I suppose I can see that line of reasoning, but I feel like the benefits of that outweight the negatives of having an optional, playermade, global chat.
Auction Houses, Fast Travel, Mounts, Cash Shops, Dungeon Finders - These are all things that I 100% agree that the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument is useless. But the difference between those features and the global chat that helps you locate groups, is that those features retract from the social aspect of the game that we all want. The Global chat benefits that aspect, and I'd say it does so in a big way.
Again, I'm pro localized chat. Just trying to wrap my head around your reasoning. I agree with the ambience of localized chat over global chat. I agree with creating a subculture within a zone. I agree with every other point made so far when it comes to localized chat. I have a hard time agreeing with the argument that global chat, in a game like Pantheon (EQ), would give a competitive advantage to players.
Pantheon is an adult game.
If you are truly LOOKING FOR A GROUP. It's respectful to not be wasting other's time. That means you would NOT NEED A PORT, you would already be equiped and at the dungeon head, of where you plan on grouping at. There will be hubs of activity. From there will nest & nurture and spawn groups. You have to frame your mind around Pantheon, not EQ. Do you think Global chat will ever be needed..?
The idea that a Wizard is going to place you within 2m of "your dungeon of choice for the evening" is a bit far fetching. In any outing, your character will have to come prepared. Buying rations, torches and reagents will all come into play.
The advantage will always go towards the proactive players whom are already in the dungeon or cities LFG, verses the one broadcasting himself another continent away. Global speak is senseless.
Not quite sure what that has to do with this being an adult game.
How many times have we seen, especially in EQ and Vanguard, people discuss how hard it is to find groups? How many time has the advice been given, "Start your own group". How many times does starting your own group involve doing a /who all and sending tells to whoever you can to see if they'd be interested in exploration. I've done it countless times in many MMO's. Countless times those were people in other parts of the world that had to locate ports, or travel, or do what they could to get to the location specified for grouping.
What is disrespectful about locating people to join you for a group? What's disrespectful about putting your hand out to random people across the server and asking if they'd like to join you? What's disrespectful about "/Tell GandalfXX Howdy! Would you like to join me in Guk?" and GandalfXX either accepting, and travelling as necessary, or declining? The same applies to global chat.
Global chat will not be needed, obviously. But we're all making this assumption that Pantheon will have this huge playerbase where zones will be chalk full of individuals looking for group. We're all crossing our fingers that it won't be the empiness of Vanguard, where you would be forced to send /tells to randoms throughout the server, hoping they'd join you at Khegor's End. And if that's the case, you might as well just have Global Chat.
Look, I'll say it again as often as I need to. I am PRO LOCALIZED ZONE CHAT and AGAINST GLOBAL CHAT. I AGREE with almost everything people have said that are for Localized Chat. I just understand the appeal, and the benefits of global chat. I'm frankly kind of surprised that all of us that are here hoping for a more social MMO, and looking for every opporunity to increase that social aspect, are so against a mechanic that would achieve that goal so dramatically.
=Edit= And increasing that social aspect is NEVER senseless. That's an obtuse statement.
"Adult Game" meaning we are not needy incessant children and constantly need things handed to us.
Pantheon is not a video game, it is a MMORPG. If you as a Player were actually looking for a group wouldn't your Character actually be at the best spot for being picked up for a group..? Otherwise, YOUR COMPITITION will get picked for a group, before YOU...!! (Thus still /lfg)
And NO, I do not hear people complaining about getting into groups. Ever.. I do hear bad player who log on and want 2h of raiding on demand, upset that their incessant needs are not met exactly like they want it handed to them. Think on this: What if the world said NO... and you must physically find your teammates ..? (Not artificially broadcast yourself from half way across the world.) <-- Just think on that for a bit.
I understand how everyone use to use "/who".. etc.
Everyone here knows and have done that, etc. But that is what we were left with as players back then... it is not how it should be. It is just how you & many others have gotten use to, and now you can not expand your mind to understand a fresh game with more open and realistic mechanics of finding others, etc.
How hard is it for you to find a pub, or a tavern..? If you can do that, then you are halfway to solving any... and all your & our problems. Chat channels are not a player right, they are a given, & to those who earn the right to use those individual channels. Regional and local permissives are the best.
Oddly, you keep imagining needing tons of people in a zone, to find groups. Why..? And how often is not finding a group is actually a problem for you? Who is having these problems and when..? I am unsure of the complaint.
Addditionally, Travel in Pantheon is not going to be trivial like it was in Everquest, or Vanguard. Travel will be respected and a big part of the game. So, when LFG you will most almost undoubtedly be lfg in the immediate area. Because no pug is going to wait on you for 25m while you find your way to them. Pantheon will be more proactive and most likely feature a pub-style game mechanic that allows travellers to find & talk with each other quickly and effortlessly.
Pantheon will be vastly different than in Everquest, because instant travel will be limited. Making traveling much more a necessity. Re-imagine a game where traveing threw something like an East Commons, and even at lvl 30.. it could be dangerous, if you are not carefeul while you travel. For example, Mobs may not always be where they were, the lasty time you saw them, etc. There will be tons of uncertainty when traveling... it is a 64bit game world and a dynamic story world is now possible.
In pantheon there will be many natual ways to make local pedestrians, group-up. If that is what they are seeking. (ie pubs)
Zones can be 8x larger than in EQ, means that your assumption "someone" is looking for a group in Pantheon, instead of logging in and being asked to join... is unfounded. I agree with most of what your saying, just that the solution are articial when they do not need to be. The social apsect of a MMPRG is not the chatting.
Chatting in global... is not how you promote a deep "social aspect". The deepness is in the actual meeting of Character's and inspecting and sharing stories in person. Otherwise, you do not need a MMORPG for chatting amongst people... that is not a game & you can open a room in skype and do that. Pantheon is about your character and his role. And how well you play his/her role in this story world is how people know your character.
I reject your notion that people need to have acess to arbitrary global channels, because in the past they had them. They are simply not needed for public conversation.
I'm actually opposed to global chat channels, even for LFG. However, this :
Hieromonk said:Oddly, you keep imagining needing tons of people in a zone, to find groups. Why..? And how often is not finding a group is actually a problem for you? Who is having these problems and when..? I am unsure of the complaint.
My two main characters in EQ were Necro and Paladin. I found it difficult at times to get a group with both because they were perceived to be weak classes that were less valued in a group than others. I was passed over in favor of others. I was in fact told at times that they were not interested in my class, and would go without until another class were available.
If you played one of several classes (Warrior, Cleric, Shaman, Wizard) I'm sure you didnt experience this. But there are many other classses (Rogue, Necro, Paladin, Bard) that did at various points in the game's lifecycle.
I dont mean this to be a defense of global channels. It isnt. I'm just pointing out that there were in fact people that did have trouble getting groups. And it wasnt a reputation issue with the player, but rather a reputation issue with their class.
Feyshtey said:I'm actually opposed to global chat channels, even for LFG. However, this :
Hieromonk said:Oddly, you keep imagining needing tons of people in a zone, to find groups. Why..? And how often is not finding a group is actually a problem for you? Who is having these problems and when..? I am unsure of the complaint.
My two main characters in EQ were Necro and Paladin. I found it difficult at times to get a group with both because they were perceived to be weak classes that were less valued in a group than others. I was passed over in favor of others. I was in fact told at times that they were not interested in my class, and would go without until another class were available.
If you played one of several classes (Warrior, Cleric, Shaman, Wizard) I'm sure you didnt experience this. But there are many other classses (Rogue, Necro, Paladin, Bard) that did at various points in the game's lifecycle.
I dont mean this to be a defense of global channels. It isnt. I'm just pointing out that there were in fact people that did have trouble getting groups. And it wasnt a reputation issue with the player, but rather a reputation issue with their class.
Then understand, your class and that game are the reson for your previous /group woes... and not the mechanics of Pantheon.
Therefore, there is no need for such fears in Pantheon.
Hieromonk said:Then understand, your class and that game are the reson for your previous /group woes... and not the mechanics of Pantheon.
Therefore, there is no need for such fears in Pantheon.
Because... The Pantheon devs are beyond error? Because they can promise perfect balance in all the classes and in all content?
Sorry, but no one is perfect, and no game with sandbox-type freedom or variety of gameplay options will ever achieve perfect balance. It will happen. There will be classes that are considered gimp. And there will be eras of the game in which the most gimp classes changes from one to another. The playerbase will more often choose certain classes to play cooperatively with over others. It's just a reality of this type of immense evolving system.
To Feyshtey:
Most of the classes that didn't do so well in groups exceled when soloing, that was a person’s choice to pick their class. With everything I've seen being put in to Pantheon, I think the class build system/grouping/socialization may lean more towards not many if any being able to 'solo'...at least not entirely.
To everyone:
My first fear is that a global chat system will ruin what many want the economy to be in Pantheon. Even limited to 'LFG' Channels, undoubtedly some will use it as a trade channel and thus you will have global chat...The sub-economies that existed in EQ is what made things so dynamic. Being able to buy items in one area that they are commonly found, then traveling across Norath and reselling at a different price was an entire segment of my gaming experience in EQ.
Feyshtey said:Hieromonk said:Then understand, your class and that game are the reson for your previous /group woes... and not the mechanics of Pantheon.
Therefore, there is no need for such fears in Pantheon.
Because... The Pantheon devs are beyond error? Because they can promise perfect balance in all the classes and in all content?
Sorry, but no one is perfect, and no game with sandbox-type freedom or variety of gameplay options will ever achieve perfect balance. It will happen. There will be classes that are considered gimp. And there will be eras of the game in which the most gimp classes changes from one to another. The playerbase will more often choose certain classes to play cooperatively with over others. It's just a reality of this type of immense evolving system.
Quite so. Hiero, I appreciate your passion and optimism for this game, but I beleive you're making some pretty wild assumptions here.
I loved EQ, and I loved Vanguard. LOVED them. To me, they were the pinnacle of what I believe to be an engaging MMO. But no matter how much I loved them, and how much I will most likely enjoy Pantheon, there will be times when some folks have trouble locating groups. It's been that way in every MMO out there.
Daily, I see posts and questions in P99 Everquest of folks bemoaning how hard it is to locate groups. Daily, I would see that question in Vanguard. When you have an MMO with open and contested content, where you don't have to join dungeon finding queues and are able to go about your business while allowing the game to locate a group for you, that problem will ALWAYS pop up to greater or lesser degrees.
And daily, with all those complaints, the answer woul invariably be "Why don't you start your own group?" This would involve locating members throughout the entire server to see if they'd be willing to travel. That's just the reality of MMO's like Vanguard, EQ, and most likely, Pantheon.
Hieromonk said:Addditionally, Travel in Pantheon is not going to be trivial like it was in Everquest, or Vanguard. Travel will be respected and a big part of the game.
What? Are you sure you played the same EQ that I played? Maybe you are talking about a later time period, because travel was more meaningful in that it took time and planning than any mmorpg since. We'd be lucky if it was that "respected."
Hieromonk said:So, when LFG you will most almost undoubtedly be lfg in the immediate area. Because no pug is going to wait on you for 25m while you find your way to them. Pantheon will be more proactive and most likely feature a pub-style game mechanic that allows travellers to find & talk with each other quickly and effortlessly.
Pantheon will be vastly different than in Everquest, because instant travel will be limited. Making traveling much more a necessity.
(again) Huh? err.. That was not my experience in EQ. Again, I wouldn't mind seeing travel be even more limited in Pantheon than EQ, but its unfortunately unlikely.
Love your enthusiasm man, but you have a way of letting your imagination and conjectures run away with you.
Feyshtey said:Hieromonk said:Then understand, your class and that game are the reson for your previous /group woes... and not the mechanics of Pantheon.
Therefore, there is no need for such fears in Pantheon.
Because... The Pantheon devs are beyond error? Because they can promise perfect balance in all the classes and in all content?
Sorry, but no one is perfect, and no game with sandbox-type freedom or variety of gameplay options will ever achieve perfect balance. It will happen. There will be classes that are considered gimp. And there will be eras of the game in which the most gimp classes changes from one to another. The playerbase will more often choose certain classes to play cooperatively with over others. It's just a reality of this type of immense evolving system.
Balance among classes is not about being perfect, it is about being different.
Everyone who has ever played a true MMORPG understand that certain classes are not solo friendly and are also not the best for most pugs. If you have a fear of not getting into a group, then temper this with the Class one mighht be thinking of making. That is just called logical. But no need to spread that fear through 18 years of flegling mechanics and place them on Pantheon.
Classes have a role, we all know this. 90% of getting in a group is being there.