Woah, woah, woah. Let's step back and think about this a second. First, a cleric can NOT out DPS a paladin. A paladin has 3 separate attack lanes: autoattack, Fervent Strike using wrath, and his technique bar using readiness, which is already 1 more attack ability than clerics have. Then, at level 12 I think, a pally has two DOT spells by then, Righteousness flame and Oath of Determination, which use wrath. Then he has wrathful aegis which is a third aoe DoT that uses wrath. And all of these stack. then, he has vs undead attack. And they have AoE attacks on top of that. And with Venger's Vow, his output is increased by 10& on top. So, no, a cleric can not outperform that DPS, and not even close.
Then there is healing. Oathflame takes 400 wrath wich is about 2 cycles through your abilities. So every other rotation you can heal. Then, utilizing Venger's Vow from above, you get 2 additional heals, 750 wrath on a 1 min cooldown. So already that is roughly 5 leals per minute from oathflame. Then, Faithful Strike which you can use each round with readiness, heals him for the damage dealt, which scales. Then, if you are somehow still out of wrath, you can pop Wrathful Reckoning, which gives you 1.25 heals worth of wrath for 1 reckoning, which you can store up to 3, and only a 30 sec cooldown, so there's 6.25 heals per minute with oathflame alone. Then, Hymn of Devotion increases all of your heals by 20% on top of that. Then, if that isnt enough, your Lay On Hands will restore all of your health, and by utilizing your 8 second stun wich costs a reckoning and not wrath, you can have enough time from a single target, to generate another heal's worth of wrath.
I hope you are using your abilities wisely because I have found, using them correctly, the paladin may be the best and most resilient tank in the game by a very wide margin. Write back if there's something you disagree with. Love to hear some more detail on why you think their DPS is worse than a cleric and how they don't have enough heals. Thx Carryion.
First let look at what Im saying! You cant keep casting attack spells with out using your Readiness. Witch mean you not healing! And the spell are not going off correclty! If they get a heal yes they can out dps a clr. But they can not do this alone! As a clr can! So in the long run the Clr last longer so it will out dps the pal because he dead! When your Your heals are less then the damage taken your dead! And then ya have the hug spell failurs!
A DL on the same mobs can kill 2 at a time needing no heals!
Pal bealy kills 1
Clr can take on 2 of the same mob! So a Clr can Out tank out DPS 1 Pal with no heals!
War can take out 1 with no problems
For Plate class a Paladan, You figer he be able hold his own!
Wiz Mage they are So dame easy taking out same mobs with no problems
I mean I have not test this on all mobs! I can solo blues bepending mob.
I have 3 20+ toons Just saying they way underpower in self heals
I can agree that Faithful Strike can use an overhaul; or change the name to Unreliable Strike. It should heal and generate threat regardless of dealing damage (if it's supposed to be "faithful").
Righteous Flame should be a 1min buff (and increase in damage when fighting undead), and Oathflame should be a Technique that costs 1000 Readiness OR allow the wrath mechanic to work more like essence OR SIGNIFICANTLY lower the wrath cost (down to like 100 from 400!!!!).
DL should not be able to heal themselves more reliably than a Paladin can IMO. Paladin also shouldn't have to rely on being in combat to heal (hence my suggesting change to wrath mechanic)... if I wanted to rely on being in combat to heal, I'd play a DL.
I haven't gotten my pally high enough to know what it feels like, but at lower levels I can take on multiple mobs at my level and be OK. the benefit of not having to rely on a mana pool is very nice. I don't think were taking into account the mana and how it affects the fight for a cleric perhaps? I know that my shaman has to actually have downtime to generate mana after a few fights, whereas my pally can just keep going all day. I'll have to start a cleric and see how they do.
Perhaps it's just scaling? I mean, I have strikes that heal me, strikes that do good damage, heals (costs wrath of course), AoE (wrath) DoT's and more. Our kit isn't bad, so maybe they just need to look at the scaling as we get to higher level.
Plus if you have any suggestions as to what they need to change, I think that would go a long ways in the discussion. just saying that paladins suck and everyone else is stronger doesn't really go too far. We've all been browsing forums since the dawn of MMO's, and that gripe is an old horse. Everyone who wants their class to change says it sucks. give us some real ideas for change? do we just need more threat? is it the lack of resources like wrath and readiness, or are the pools too small?
I find that I like the paladin mechanics in this game. I don't want mana, I like being able to juggle my resources during a right and not just have a single mana pool that eventually winds itself down to O during a fight. So to me it just seems like we need some resource adjustments really.
I haven't had any problems with my paladin holding aggro or tanking... like at all. Maybe your rotation is wrong?
I usually go Lance of the Lightful to pull being a 30m ranged... when mob is in range, use Incite for the snap taunt (something a DL cant do), spam Feverent Strikes and Venger's Vow for Wrath, Condemning Blow (for the increased aggro) I dont use Faithful strike. Then - I heal myself. A lot. I use Oathflame almost as much as I can, even with a dedicated healer. Why? Because healing is an aggro builder. Once Im comfortable with my aggro build up, I even begin to delay using incite, just continuing Condemning Blows and Oathflame as it comes up. If it seems like I may lose aggro and dont have incite up, I use my stun. Generally that gives me time till my incite is up.
You can even "re-set the table" so to speak if an add comes along and you need to reposition the group. Edict of Celestial Might has saved us many times.
Our groups usually go smooth enough that my supplemental heals and Hymn of Devotion aura gives the healer enough mana to add some DPS themselves.
Outside of full groups, my main setup is a duo with a Wizard and we dont have any issues without a dedicated healer at all.
The only time you should regularly be losing aggro is if a dps like a Wiz is unloading at the very beginning of the fight.
Obviously no class is perfect, but the Paladin is good. Could they use some tuning? Sure. I suppose a way to deal with magic damage the way Lightguard helps with melee would go a long way. But I don't think they're broken.
@Brandus -
You just highlighted the issue I "personally" was addressing when you said "I usually go Lance of the Lightful..." that costs wrath, which requires you to pop a cooldown or otherwise have been in combat within the past few seconds without using your wrath for other abilities - which forces a poor (LEEEEEROY JENKINSsss) playstyle of trying to maintain wrath (rage) in order to be optimal. With the exception of Fervent Strike, the Paladin has to juggle resources to either stay alive or generate threat, whereas the warrior and DL don't have to worry about their resources to maintain threat because their damage is also really decent.
We're not saying the Paladin isn't good, but they're not as fun as the DL or War when it comes to just being able to play the game and not have to worry about losing threat whenever your taunt and Edict of Might are on their 10 and 20sec cooldowns.
So VR what is your thought process when it comes to paladins? You fixed pal and they were quite fun to play with new fixes. These new changes make no sense and make me think that you really don't know your base. Was the pal AOE a little overpowered yes it needed a slight nerf. But all these others changes are not remotely making sense. Why, Why change the tech to dex based how does that make any dam sense and wrathful aegis as well. Why would you need dex to cast a dam aoe spell why is a tank melee class having to focus on dex instead of str. Do you think people play this game to just auto attack if they are str based, its a joke I just tested faithful strike it did 8 damage while a reg attack does 24 with my 28 str. You also changed smite to only be chr based which would be fine if there was any charisma gear in heavy crafted or non crafted. The only purpose now of having str is auto attacks and bright lance. Congratz every class is just going to dump str for other stats now. The Blade of carnage is now BOS for most classes that melee. You made the game worse not better