Joppa, I got the feeling from your stream today that you've pretty much decided against finite arrows. I hope this is not the case. Even if it is I hope you will hear me out. At least for academic reasons if nothing else. I feel that I can better explain the way Vanguard handled arrows here in the forums as opposed to doing so on twitch during a live stream.
First I would say that Quivers are a must. Not just for fancy looks though. They would have to function like a bag that fits into the Ranged Ammo slot. A right click opens the bag to reveal slots. Each slot will hold a stack of arrows. However many slots a quiver has and how many arrows are in a stack is up to your discretion and the discretion of the other powers that be. In Vanguard I had a lvl 15 quiver that had 10 slots. And Ranger arrows stacked up to 500 per stack.
Next a little bit about how Forage worked in Vanguard. One difference VG Forage had was a 15 second cooldown. Another difference was you could Forage and loot on the move. I'm not saying Pantheon Forage should work like this. I just thought it was worth mentioning. It did make Foraging a lot more efficient though. Also there was a lot less "Failures" even at low lvls but they did exist and happened less with experience.
VG had 5 Tiers. Levels 1-10, Levels 11-20, Levels 21-30, Levels 31-40 and Levels 41-50. With each new Tier, Forage would start finding better quality arrow parts to craft the new Tier of Ranger arrows.
T1: 1 Flimsy Reed + 1 Pristine Chicken Feather + 1 Jagged Rock = 250 Crude Warden's Arrows
T2: 1 Straight Stick + 1 Hawk Feather + 1 Sharpened Obsidian = 250 Plain Warden's Arrows
T3: 1 Hollow Bird Bone + 1 Cockatrice Feather + 1 Viper Fang = 250 Polished Warden's Arrows
T4: 1 Brownie Walking Stick + 1 Roc Feather +1 Meteorite Shard = 250 Honed Warden's Arrows
T5: 1 Treant Finger + 1 Phoenix Feather + 1 Wyvern Stinger = 250 Precision Warden's Arrows
These arrow parts stacked up to 99 each in your inventory. They could also be found anywhere you Foraged. And as long as you had the proper parts you could craft these anywhere. As a Ranger in VG you had a Tab in your Codex. Clicking on that tab opened up an assembly table. You could choose which Tier of arrow you wish to craft depending on your lvl. There was an assemble button in the window. A single combined took 5 seconds. At 250 arrows per combined I could fill my 10 slot bag in less than 30 seconds.
I would add that a Foraging Bag would be nice but not absolutely necessary. One thing that would be necessary though is that the arrow parts would have to not have any weight. I know that sounds like it goes against the grain. But in this case I would argue that Infinite Arrows, which is a LOT of arrows only weighs 0.1 (zero point one). This could be more than fairly offset by making the quiver weight 1.0 or even 10.0 for the sake of the weight management game.
Ranger arrows were Tradeable but only Useable by other Rangers. So Rangers could trade arrows with each other. However other classes, depending on the players chosen tradeskill could also craft arrows. I know woodworkers could craft arrows and I think weaponsmiths could also craft arrows. These tradeskill arrows were pretty awesome and a close second to Ranger arrows. Ranger arrows did more total damage albeit physical damage only, and Ranger arrows had more range. +15 range. Tradeskill arrows had less range and less total damage but they had the added benefit of being able to be imbued with magic damage like Fire, Cold, Lightning etc. Tradeskill arrows of course was tradeable and usable by anyone proficient with a bow.
And of course there was also vendor arrows. These were the least among arrows. They could not compete with Tradekill arrows or Ranger arrows. But you could get a whole stack for a handful of copper or maybe a couple silver and they was good enough to pull a mob. Thanks for hearing me out. I'm very passionate about all things Ranger. If you have any further questions on the subject I would be happy to try to answer them.
Long time Ranger here, from EQ to Vanguard, to DAoC, to EQ2, and any game that had an archer class (except WoW, I hated the Hunter don't ask me why).
I wanted to chime in as someone who has always been opposed to arrows magically popping out of my character's butt.
I feel like the current implementation is good, but I also feel it is lacking. With weight being an issue, and carrying tens of thousands of arrows being impractical and unrealistic in the extreme, I don't think most people want to see ammo the same way other games have done it.
But I do like the idea of needing multiple arrow types or having many options.
What I would propose is a compromise between the two systems. Quivers should be a thing. With some number of slots based on tier of the item. Either crafted or dropped. The current system of having an arrow "item" that is equipped and provides ammo. I liked this when I saw it. The quiver should be set up to only hold these items. Nothing else. the slots should be very limited. tier 1 would maybe have 2, and increase by one until a limit is reached. further tiers might provide other benefits.
The equipping of the quiver should give us an ability or the item itself should be slotted on the utility bar. Using the item/ability allows us to cycle through the arrows in the quiver. Allowing us to "select" and arrow from the quiver. this lends to the "strategy" theme of Pantheon and gives people an easy way to quickly manage dmg types during combat. Broadhead, Bodkin, Field Point for slash , pierce, crush. Then add magical dmg types maybe?
Allow the Ranger to do their Rangering by crafting these arrow items from a special ability. Give them a slight bonus over normal arrows and make them ranger only.
Crafted arrows are nearly as good, but not quite, but can also be imbued with magic for the magic dmg types. So if elemental dmg is better for a specific mob, even a Ranger will need a crafter to make arrows.
I think this would give Rangers a feel of being the archer a lot of us want to be, while not being over powered, still being convenient in terms of inventory and weight management, still require a degree of dependance on crafters, giving us tactical choice during combat, and all while being an optional system. You could always just equip a single arrow item without a quiver and go with that for simple pulling and the like.
@Kellindil, I love it. Maybe not quite as much as Vanguard, but I agree what you described is the perfect compromise. I still have an affinity for finite arrows but I also understand that many people feel the opposite.
Make an infinite arrow that only a Ranger can craft. These should have the most damage but should be physical damage only. I like that you specified different types such as Broadhead or Bodkin. It would be great for a Ranger to have these options for crushing, slashing, piercing. Also a small range bonus on Ranger arrows would be sweet. Get that 40m mark instead of the standard 35m with Longbow.
A player with the appropriate tradeskill could craft other types of infinite arrows. These would not do as much physical damage but have magical damage types.
Yeah the quiver could allow you to equip and be able to quickly change between these different types of arrows for different tactical scenarios.
Yes, I could get behind and support a compromise like this. I think I could except the infinite arrows school of thought. As long as I had some hand in creating them for myself and the ability to have choices and a strategic advantage of being able to have a small arsenal of varied types of arrows for different situations.
What I do not want is a system where I'm handed an infinite arrow and basically told this is it unless you get lucky enough to find some rare drop. While I'm not opposed to special arrows being dropped from mobs, I just don't want that to be all there is. As a Ranger I should be able to strive to create a better arrow than what I've been given and yes sometimes to seek out others that would create a better arrow for me.
So you want to have to tote around thousands of arrows, but you want them weightless? Forage could still be used to find things a ranger can use to make ranger-only arrows the way they are done currently without the tedium of having to tote around thousands of them. It completely kills any immersion to have thousands of arrows in your pack not adding to encumberance.
If they do have consumable arrows, I hope that there is a special bag slot that only Rangers get that you can only put a quiver into. That way they are not at a huge inventory disadvantage. I am fine with having non-consumable arrows too for what it is worth. They can just make them harder to craft. You are also going to have (some of these are already craft-able) different arrow types that provide different damage, etc to manage. Imagine now having piercing, slashing, and blunt arrows with multiple stacks. And then they may add magic arrows that do magic damage at some point too. It could get out of hand real fast worrying about all of those arrows being consumable...
We don't need to reinvent anything at this point. they have arrows as a static item, not consumable, so let's just leave it at that. It is what it is.
Any argument on immersion can go both ways. It is immersion breaking to have arrows popping out of your butt, and it's immersion breaking to carry around thousands of arrows. Realism would be you can only carry a few dozen arrows at a time and when you run out you can't use your bow any more. We can't do this because it would be terrible gameplay. There must be balance between immersion and realism and good gameplay.
To this, lets just move past talk of immersion as a reason to have or not have anything. We will never agree. I don't mind having to carry around thousands of arrows. It doesn't hurt my immersion. But having arrows magically appear does. Obviously some people feel the opposite.
Let's focus on the gameplay and how to make the Ranger, who seems to have a heavy focus on ranged attacks, feel connected to their "signature" weapon type.
I think the current implementation is fine. The fact that arrows are an item, and an upgradable item, feels good. Now let's make the Ranger feel a little more special than any other class that can use a bow. I feel the Ranger should be special in this account.
I feel like what I outlined in my earlier post is a good solution. It builds on what they currently have implemented. The changes around Quivers and how they function would be usable by any class, and solve the issue of carrying multiple arrow types and bag space. It's a special bag with a special slot. It can still be slightly restrictive based on tier of the bag (quiver). So there is gear progression, and the quiver isn't an automatic thing, so early on we will still be stuck managing arrows in normal bag slots until we grow as a character. This keeps the sense of achievement from progress we see as a player.
It seems a happy medium between having no ammo and magic butt popping arrows vs consumable ammo. It limits us to a handful of arrows in inventory, which is more realistic, but doesn't require us to carry thousands of arrows to remain viable for ranged attacks.
There could be a large variety of arrow options, and some special arrows only available to Rangers through a forage class skill or some such. Crafters can also find income from making multiple arrow types, and interact with other crafters to potentially grant magic capabilities to arrows.
As someone who hates magic butt popping arrows, and doesn't mind having to carry thousands of arrows, I feel this would satisfy me in a gameplay sense. It's gives me a sense of carrying arrows in my inventory and feel they aren't magically appearing out of nothingness, while not being too crazy out there for those who hate carrying thousands of arrows but don't mind magic butt popping arrows.
As a master fletcher in EQ1, I didn't have an issue with the implementation of creating arrows to use and loved the different types that could be made. As a ranger, I saw this as part of my class with the added bonus of being able to sell said arrows to pullers and those that did not take the time to fletch.
In my view, crafting arrows comes as part and parcel of the ranger class. It is as woven into my play style as is creating my own bows (before getting epics and the like) or tracking. I see it as a fundamental part of the class.
Given Pantheon's in-depth battles where you can feed off mob states set by other players, differing arrow types could easily be employed to take advantage or indeed cause a state shift. Blunt nosed to stun, armour piercing for plate, serrated for bleeds, etc, etc, etc. I am all in favour of finite consumed arrows with differing options.
I might be wrong, but I don't think a final decision on arrows has been made one way or the other.
So from this stand point, I would love that my crafting skills, fletching choice, wood choice, point choice, metal choice all played a part in how good an arrow I could craft. They definitely should be finite with some choice to take into a fight and sellable.
@chenzeme. Currently, there is no Fletching skill and arrow manufacture is split into 2 trades (Woodworking and Blacksmithing). Which means a single player can not make their own arrows. They would have to go in a different direction on this if they just want you to be self sufficient the way you are describing. Frankly, the more I think about it the more I think it is too much. Got to juggle food, resist gear, weapon types for different damage, and now arrows with different arrow types too? Just not sold sorry. And we already have the forage skill to fuel our utility skills which is just more stuff in our bags...
In a game with giant spiders, gas bats that explode, ghosts that run around trying to kill you, etc., someone says it ruins their immersion to have arrows pop out of their butt. There are a lot of people who want this game to be as tedious as possible. If the devs cater to that need, you had better hope that there are enough people who want that playstyle to make the game able to survive. One of the perks of a vip package was free sub for years. Now they're doing away with that. I don't know how they plan to make money, but the game will not do well with a few hundred players, and if the try hards get what they want, that's exactly how this game will end up. There is challenge, and then there is unnecessary tedium. Crafting, in general, is utterly tedious. It's so complicated that I don't feel like it's even feasible to expect to be able to get what you want from other players to make your own things you're limited to. You're going to have to level up multiple alts to supply yourself. Otherwise limited availability will just push prices through the roof, making it so basically everyone has to craft everything. Massive amounts of resources, multiple steps to make one item. Spending hours gathering to gain 1 or 2 points. That's not hard. It's boring. When you design a game that makes every single aspect of it punish the player, you end up with a game that is popular with a few hundred people, and that number will dwindle as they die off. Gamers are not flocking to games that punish them. Embers Adrift anyone? $40 for the game and a $10 sub for a game that kicks you in the jimmies all day long? I've already given up on this game ever making it to "live". With attitudes like I see in some of the "fans", it's going to die quickly. Hear me now. Believe me later. Or neither. Don't care.
