A Step Back, into the Right Direction

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A Step Back, into the Right Direction

Susurrus
- 560 posts
November 15, 2023 12:24 PM PST

I will need to remember this as a prep talk to my employees. Well all but the profit at release seeing as they would likely get none.

joking of course.
Ranarius
- 1284 posts
November 15, 2023 12:58 PM PST

lotuss79 said: Hard work costs nothing. They can simply build out the game if they believe in it and take profits for their hard work at release.

How do you survive while you're working hard for free?
justdrop
- 194 posts
November 15, 2023 1:15 PM PST

Ranarius said:

lotuss79 said: Hard work costs nothing. They can simply build out the game if they believe in it and take profits for their hard work at release.

How do you survive while you're working hard for free?

"Free" AKA got paid up front.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 15, 2023 3:15 PM PST

I think VR didn't handle this at all well. From the shut down of comms, then the graphics redirection with a 5 min screen grab, then 247 leak. Then a begrudging statement about what it was with a little video.
I mean it wasn't going any other way except a huge backlash.
But, they listened and changed course again. Let's hope they can get what they need from pre alpha and we enjoy what they can give us. Just remember, when we are in, the content will not be complete in anyway what so ever.
lotuss79
- 185 posts
November 15, 2023 5:36 PM PST

Ranarius said:

lotuss79 said: Hard work costs nothing. They can simply build out the game if they believe in it and take profits for their hard work at release.

How do you survive while you're working hard for free?

Short answer would be the same way pretty much every tech startup did it in the 2000's, and many still do.

Keep in mind none of them have to clock into an office from 9:00am - 5:00pm Monday though Friday.

They are already working on it "at will".

Nothing says they can't take on paid work and complete their passion project at the same time.

And not to sound rude, but they are not unicorns, or egg shells, or delicate flowers who must be given extra special treatment.

There has been an undeniable lack of "hard work" for the past 10 years. Because of this, to keep on going business as usual does not seem to be an option anymore.

Maybe at least temporary pay reductions and some serious oversight?
Kittik
- 1019 posts
November 16, 2023 4:52 PM PST

lotuss79 said:

Maybe at least temporary pay reductions and some serious oversight?

This is what has been missing imo.

.
Ranarius
- 1284 posts
November 17, 2023 9:43 AM PST

But we don't know how much money any of them make. We don't know if pay reductions have already been a thing over the years, that wouldn't be information they'd publish. My assumption has always been that people have either worked for free, worked overtime for free, and/or deferred payment many times over the years. It's never going to be public info though.
sysopz
- 7 posts
November 20, 2023 5:06 PM PST

Grifters gonna grift.... That's what I see. Such a shame imo.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 22, 2023 3:44 AM PST

Urgh, I just get frustrated with some people and their "death to VR" posts. This is the real shame!

You cannot comment at all on how hard anyone in VR has worked, you just have no idea! Yes, the game is 10 years in the making, yes they are a small team, yes the product has changed more than once. This does not equate to a lack of hard work or effort, though. You have no idea of what has gone on in VR's workforce. Its just barf for the sake of sound!

And how do you kill a company? Enforce pay cuts. LMAO, they will just leave mate!

"Hard work costs nothing"?, says a boss who doesn't value hard work! Of course hard work costs! It costs the company good money for hard workers, it costs the workers who are putting their time into the hard work. Each and every minute put into hard work is a minute off that worker's life (or is that valueless?).
This post was edited by chenzeme at November 22, 2023 4:01 AM PST
dorotea
- 3852 posts
November 22, 2023 7:39 AM PST

The lack of success in moving Pantheon even to alpha over more years than we prefer thinking about does not equate to lack of effort or lack of desire to see the game release. Hard working and dedicated people can and often do fail - because of lack of resources, bad luck, bad decisions, or many other factors.

We should not allow frustration and impatience to lead us to attack the people - as I see too often here. It is sufficient to criticize the results and specific decisions. That is entirely warranted in many cases. Had all gone better criticism would be neither justified nor forthcoming but ...it did not.
lotuss79
- 185 posts
November 22, 2023 3:58 PM PST

I think we can reasonably speak to the work ethic at VR actually.

For example, if they had spent the last 8 months simply building out the zones with the old assets, a small but professional team, putting in real 40 hour work weeks for 8 months, would be much nearer completion and ready for Alpha with perhaps Beta on the horizon.

Thats not whats going on here.

Instead in 8 months of work, what was accomplished was a 2 room "tower" instance with a handfull of non-opperable NPCs, and a few "extraction portals" thoughout the zone.

This is the type of pace that could be realized by high school students in a few weeks of cumputer lab.

A major investor and supporter, someone who has direct inside knowledge about whats going on at VR (Cohh), posted his frustrations on twitter and ended with a call for them to "buckle down" and finish the game. Thats not the type of language thats used when people are working hard at their job.

Im sorry, but the suggestion that we don't know how hard they are working behind the scenes would have been reasonable 5 years ago, its not quite realistic now.

We have confirmation from insiders, as well as what our own eyes and ears are telling us over serveral years.

Also, i can't tell you how many hours i have put in that were never Directly compensated for because a goal needed to be met.

Everyone has been in that situation in their professional lives, yet VR is apparently immune from those expectations?

Instead $6million later in salaries, 10 years down in development, and still in "Pre" Alpha. But we're to rest assured that they are working hard "behind the scenes"?
This post was edited by lotuss79 at November 22, 2023 4:01 PM PST
Ziegfried
- 264 posts
November 22, 2023 5:29 PM PST

dorotea said: The predictable flood of praise for the reversal tends to overlook one thing. VR switched to 247 for a reason. They changed the graphics for a reason. The reason has not gone away. The flirtation with 247 leaves them - and us - in worse shape than before the ill0fated romance not in better shape. What is VR going to do to overcome the problems that led them to switch to 247 in the first place?

Tough question. The answer is equally tough..put in huge hours and begin crunching. After all the project should be launched by now, not still in pre-alpha. Cut the scope of the project by as much as you possibly can and crunch hard. Maybe there's only one starting city, maybe only 4 races, maybe only 6 classes at launch. Instead of 10+ dungeons you're launching with 5 dungeons. Obviously raids, crafting, housing, etc all off the table. They have been unrealistic in what they could accomplish, that needs to stop.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 23, 2023 3:12 AM PST

lotuss79: For example, if they had spent the last 8 months simply building out the zones with the old assets, a small but professional team, putting in real 40 hour work weeks for 8 months, would be much nearer completion and ready for Alpha with perhaps Beta on the horizon.

lotuss79: Im sorry, but the suggestion that we don't know how hard they are working behind the scenes would have been reasonable 5 years ago, its not quite realistic now.

MAN! You just do not know this! Lack of apparent progress does not equate to lack of effort or hard work. We have no idea how hard they are working. It is not realistic to say "If we dont have a game, VR employees must be lazy". Shees! Once again, you do not know what the VR staff are working on or how hard. You are simply guessing. Making assumptions based on the fact we don't have a product yet; this is extrapolation of the worst kind.

lotuss79: We have confirmation from insiders, as well as what our own eyes and ears are telling us over serveral years.

And what confirmation please? From who? Link! Not seeing a release product does not mean they are not working hard!

lotuss79: Instead $6million later in salaries, 10 years down in development, and still in "Pre" Alpha. But we're to rest assured that they are working hard "behind the scenes"?

Assumption! Not fact! You know they have spent $6M? Then please link the proof. Even if they have (which is irrelevant anyway), that is down to the budget holders, not the people creating and writing the game. Once again, the lack of a release product, does not equate to a work force that is not working hard.
This post was edited by chenzeme at November 23, 2023 2:47 PM PST
Brutenga
- 102 posts
November 23, 2023 6:29 AM PST

Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Either way, we'll never know unless VR comes out and lays it all out. That's never going to happen, so this argument can go on forever.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 23, 2023 11:40 AM PST

Oh and just for the record, just imagine how demoralising it must be for the VR staff to have people making statements like "they are lazy" or "dock their pay". How to inspire people in 2 easy steps, not!
This post was edited by chenzeme at November 23, 2023 11:41 AM PST
Brutenga
- 102 posts
November 24, 2023 7:17 AM PST

well yeah I think (hope) most of us would agree, whipping the staff is not the greatest of motivators.
This post was edited by Brutenga at November 24, 2023 7:18 AM PST
justdrop
- 194 posts
November 24, 2023 10:08 AM PST

It's free hammers with the proper government in Civ
Gaku
- 86 posts
November 26, 2023 6:05 AM PST

White Knighting has NEVER been beneficial to the production of any game, criticism however has.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 26, 2023 8:34 AM PST

Criticisms are not critiques. I have critiqued and do not shy away from doing so. Critiques are beneficial, criticism are just complaints. Criticism without proof is just insulting. Calling VR staff lazy is an insult, and is not beneficial to anyone. It is not beneficial to getting a game complete.

White Knighting, lol!
lotuss79
- 185 posts
November 26, 2023 11:39 AM PST

Chenzeme, you said "you don't Know this", but evertying can't be subjective forever. Rational judgements need to be made at some point.

I could say "you don't Know for a fact that the Indian Ocean exists. You have never seen it. You have never swam in it. How can you Know?"

You're standard of proof seems to be a written and notorized statement from VR as to what they are doing. After 10 years we have to come to some kind of judgement on our own.

And the suggestion that i am making things up and you want links. Sure, a google search is easy to find.

You want confirmation from insiders. There you go.

https://twitter.com/CohhCarnage/status/1717943752600248508 />

https://massivelyop.com/2022/07/21/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen-lands-2-4m-in-funding-and-elaborates-on-its-death-mechanics/

They have the funding at $5.34 combined. Thats accredited investors. Add the thousands of pledgers on to that.

Im not making up crazy assumtions out of thin air. We are allowed to come to reasonable conclusions based on the information thats out there.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 27, 2023 1:08 AM PST

Lotuss79

You proposed that your statement (and I quote you here) "$6 million later in salaries..." was the truth. THIS kind of statement requires PROOF. It is not enough to put down a figure then make an argument based on that figure without unequivocal evidence. You are not merely making a point of view, you are trying to say that your view is backed up by facts.

When you disparage people and call them lazy and go on to quote a figure, then you had better back that figure up with proof or it is just, at best, not true and at worst, a disingenuous exaggeration. Until now, you offered no proof of your statement at all. But now you have, so, on to your links:

Cohh's post; this is regarding 247, there is no mention of salary amounts. The "buckle down" is referring to getting back on track with the mmo. It is a huge stretch to imply this is regarding the work rate of staff. It is made by an investor (not an insider, he is not employed by VR and he has no extra access to the company's finances than any other investor and does not quote any figures). In my view, he was taking exception to 247 and being unhappy with that direction. It is a personal point of view about that direction at that point in time (and that direction has changed since then). This is not proof of wages or laziness and its huge stretch to call him a VR insider.

Your second link, Massively Overpowered journalistic piece; the $6 million is roughly the amount raised in investment, and I am not questioning this and this post does imply that the investment is not too far off this amount. Yup I agree to this value. But that figure is for the total invested and as far as that Massively Overpowered's piece goes; there is no mention of salaries or any other assets purchased by VR. Calling Massively Overpowered an insider in VR is yet another stretch. They report on MMOs in general and are not affiliated with VR. They are "independent journalists" (which is a phrase they use to describe themselves to their potential patrons!). Their post is nothing to do with the amount spent by VR on salaries.

Your statement of "$6 million later in salaries" is saying that all of this investment is spent on salaries and there is nothing left. This is just wrong! Investments get spent on lots of things other than wages and VR still has funds to get Pantheon to publication. Thus there are still investments left to spend. Thus it is impossible for the $6 million invested to date to be spent solely on salaries.

Investment != spent salaries.

Your description of a lazy workforce at VR is unjustified. You still offer no proof of "$6 million later in salaries" and I stand by my opinion that this statement is just not true and your conclusions are not reasonable and are stretching points to the extreme. You have offered nothing for me to change my mind.
This post was edited by chenzeme at November 27, 2023 7:11 AM PST
dorotea
- 3852 posts
November 27, 2023 7:11 AM PST

I was not looking to jump into the debate between chenzeme and lotuss79 but I see one major blooper here.

"a small but professional team, putting in real 40 hour work weeks for 8 months, would be much nearer completion and ready for Alpha with perhaps Beta on the horizon."

lotuss79 this may be true but it is entirely irrelevant. All or almost all of the VR team consists of part-timers working remotely. What you think of as employees are much more accurately described as consultants. While I have no idea what their hours are - I do know the consulting field. Rather than 40 hours a week they may well be paid for 10 hours a *month*. We just do not know.
lotuss79
- 185 posts
November 27, 2023 11:06 AM PST

Chenzeme, of course nothing i said changed you mind. Your mind can't be changed. You have your opinion on this and thats fine.

But please apply the same standard to yourself that you wish to apply to me.

If you're going to say that my statements have "no proof", then you can't say things like 'investments get spent on a lot of other things, they still have investments left to spend'.

How do You know? I could just as easily say to you "You don't Know this! You're being disingenuous! Where's your Proof!".

Thats of course ridiculous though. You're fully entitled to express you're opinion without being called disingenuous.

To make a specific point about the investment though. VR does not have to rent office space. They did not have to build a factory, or manufacture widgets.

Their spending is near entirely on renting a few servers, and... salaries. And to preempt you, no, im not going to link to a financial statement from VR "proving" this. Its common sense.

In a court of law you need to meet a standard of reasonable doubt. You seem to be insisting on a standard of unreasonable doubt.

Where im supposed to believe that 10 years and $5.whatever million later, what we have now is the product of continuous, diligent, hard work?

And im not allowed to conclude otherwise because i don't have some impossible to verify level of proof?

Sorry, not going there.

Dorotea, you're probably right. In which case there business model should probably change immediately! Maybe fewer "directors" and more programmers could be considered. There's a quote out there from Joppa about VR having one full time developer? I don't see how you can possibly make a game using only part time consultants.
justdrop
- 194 posts
November 27, 2023 11:14 AM PST

The Joppa quote is that he is the only full time DIRECTOR, not developer. The part-timers work more than part-time hours too. It really can't be made more clear at this point.
chenzeme
- 902 posts
November 27, 2023 11:40 AM PST

If I list a stat I always put its source, always. Otherwise I say its my opinion.
I reiterate, you have no clue how much they have in the bank or what they have used or what it has been spent on.
For the record, I have changed my mind many times on here and hold my hands up when I am wrong.
Yes, I believe that the work force had worked hard. I also believe that multiple changes in direction are the reason we don't have a product, not a lazy work force. That is my opinion btw. I gave no proof but that is what I think.
You can extrapolate whatever you want, but if a post is made with a statistic then, I for one will check it and call it out when it is incorrect. I expect any statistics I post to be vetted in exactly the same way!