Dikenzu said:Using the word "Objective" and using Reddit and Youtube as a standard of that is beyond laughable and an extremely asinine take on things. I frequent Youtube Pantheon videos almost religiously and there is absolutely NOTHING "Objective" about the superficial, false narrative, trollish drivel that comes from many of the commenters there about Pantheon. I have more to say, but I have to go to work.
I'll be laughing and crying at this nonsense all day.
Well now that you're not "dwelling in negativity", i would like to remind you of your first post.
You're free to disagree with me about the reasoning for this change. Im actually ok with that even if i still think you're take is wrong.
But your first response was just an arrogant, childish insult that contributed nothing.
So spare me your lecture on "negativity", you can knock that crap off.
To say that people are "ignoring points to make other points", its called a discussion. We prioritize different things. You do the same.
and "attacking certain points and not the entirety of my comments" lol wow, look in the mirror.
To sum up, they were funded till release and had 10 years to work on it. MONEY and TIME are not the issue here.
This is a complete betrayal of what they promised to deliver.
The segment of this community that over the years just kissed up and congratulated VR while they were making effectively zero progress is a big part of the reason for this failure.
The outside world can see this clearly. They have burned a lot of bridges.
lotuss79 said:Dikenzu said:Using the word "Objective" and using Reddit and Youtube as a standard of that is beyond laughable and an extremely asinine take on things. I frequent Youtube Pantheon videos almost religiously and there is absolutely NOTHING "Objective" about the superficial, false narrative, trollish drivel that comes from many of the commenters there about Pantheon. I have more to say, but I have to go to work.
I'll be laughing and crying at this nonsense all day.
Well now that you're not "dwelling in negativity", i would like to remind you of your first post.
You're free to disagree with me about the reasoning for this change. Im actually ok with that even if i still think you're take is wrong.
But your first response was just an arrogant, childish insult that contributed nothing.
So spare me your lecture on "negativity", you can knock that crap off.
To say that people are "ignoring points to make other points", its called a discussion. We prioritize different things. You do the same.
and "attacking certain points and not the entirety of my comments" lol wow, look in the mirror.
To sum up, they were funded till release and had 10 years to work on it. MONEY and TIME are not the issue here.
This is a complete betrayal of what they promised to deliver.
The segment of this community that over the years just kissed up and congratulated VR while they were making effectively zero progress is a big part of the reason for this failure.
The outside world can see this clearly. They have burned a lot of bridges.
YOUR ORIGINAL POST contained the following: "
-----Only in the opaque bubble of the official forums with its diehard fanboys are people saying "it lookes great!", "i like it even better!".
Its getting absolutely panned by outside observers. And Rightly So!
Please pull our heads out of the sand and see this. The new art direction is Objectively Terrible, and everyone that looks at it Objectively can see this. The devs need to admit their mistake and reverse course before its too late. Otherwise the game is simply doomed to failure.------
Me calling you out for insulting and shaming the community is not "Dwelling in negativity" unless you think I should have coddled your nonsense and went the high road? If you want to go that route, then so be. I don't agree, but whatever. You want to say I'm negative, but act like your insults were just being "Obejective" is still an asinine and laughable position.
Saying or insinuating that the game is "fully funded" was a mistake and VR has backtracked that statement more than once. But, it is disingenuous to IGNORE those clarifying comments and use anything VR says to keep up your confirmation bias. Are you one of the ones also demanding more transparency in communication just so you can use that against them in the future? Your comments display an complete and utter ignorance to how game development works. A game of Pantheon's scale requires a significant amount of money and developers to make.
You still thinking that in 2023 after all that has been stated about Pantheon, crowdfunded games and the cost and compleixity of making the hardest genre of games, MMOS your comments are objective. You want to criticize VR for not learning and improving in 10 years, but you're still STUCK in 10 years ago thinking that several hundred thousands of dollars or even 2.4 million was enough to create a game of Pantheon's scale is hypocritical. You haven't learned anything in 10 years about game development, but want to speak on what VR has done.
I'll leave that for you to ponder...or not.
The "Outside World" is made up of folks who criticize in good faith, folks who comment with superficial facts, lemmings who parrot whatever their favorite content creator has to say about Pantheon and not do their own sincere research, self-acknowledge Trolls and just hatefilled negative folks who just want to project their misery and the gaming sphere is their drug of choice. I know how to discern when folks are criticizing in good faith or just venting or trolling or making comments based on superficial information. As a result, I don't share your appreciation for all the "Outside World" and what they have to say. I break it down further into the categories and descriptors I laid out. Very few "good faith" and sincere comments and conversations are going on in Social Media, so you really need to stop the nonsense by using that as some kind "proof" of anything....or not
The choice is yours.
My lenghty responses addressed all the points you made. That's why they were lenghty. If I, somehow, didn't address something you said that you want me to then let me know. so, I don't agree with you trying to equate me with others in that. Yes, there is room for error on my part about that, but I don't see it. But you, on the other hand, continue to only address points for your confirmation bias and ignore anything else and you are still doing so even after I have pointed it out more than once. Which is why I know this back and forth will go nowhere. You have no desire to comment in good faith and thought coming here with your point of view insulting and belittling the community would, somehow...maybe...magically work in your favor. Like countless others having come here trying to TELL the community how to feel, act and respond. LOTS of folks here, that are consistent members, have spoken out and shared their displeasure with a LOT of things VR has done. Some of them were even highlighted by VR. There is some strong dissenting opinions on these Froums and Discord.
That is why I call out disingenuous posts when they pop up.
Some of what you calling me sounds like projecting. I didn't intially make a "arrogant, childish insult that contributed nothing" post, then get "offended" by someone else for responding and holding me accountable for my comments.
At this point I just think you want to 'win' this discussion and throwing out Hail Mary's.
Unless you have some specific point you think I ignored, then I'm done with this post and you can have the last word and get the 'win' you seem to crave.
The personal attacks need to stop. Feel free to talk about the art all you want, but this will end up getting locked or deleted if you can't behave.
(this is in reference to several posts, not a specific person)
Ashreon said:I would also like to point out how the Gryphon has wings that clips through it's model making for all sorts of janky animations (spider legs too). I said it looks like something a 1st year 3D model student has done, but honestly that's doing 1st year 3D model students a disservice. They do far better than this.
Heebs said:Ashreon said:I would also like to point out how the Gryphon has wings that clips through it's model making for all sorts of janky animations (spider legs too). I said it looks like something a 1st year 3D model student has done, but honestly that's doing 1st year 3D model students a disservice. They do far better than this.
You gotta up your troll game, fam. On reddit they're saying it looks like the fingerpainting their 5 year old nephew does. Try claiming it looks like the artwork your toddler makes in their diaper, and I'll one up you by saying it looks like the spit-up from my newborn. By the end of the thread, we may reach the act of conception.
I do wish all these people who claim the art looks like it could be done by a child would try their hand at it and show us how it's done, but alas, apparently these children are all art prodigies.
Exactly. Who cares what all these idiots online who we need to subscribe to this game think.
They are all stupid and don't understand how amazing this art is.
Pantheon will be a great success without them.
No one is "trolling", rather trying to save this game.
Go forward with these new graphics, and its over.
Honestly what I think would be helpful to everything at the moment is if VR just came out offered an apology for all the mistakes they've made and said where exactly they are. How much there still is to go and an estimated time frame. They must be working to some kind of schedule/estimations or else that is a red flag in itself.
I think a large part of the negativity is having no idea where we are and the lack of communication is discerning that there could be a very real financial problem with the company.
Adrenicus said:Honestly what I think would be helpful to everything at the moment is if VR just came out offered an apology for all the mistakes they've made and said where exactly they are. How much there still is to go and an estimated time frame. They must be working to some kind of schedule/estimations or else that is a red flag in itself.
I think a large part of the negativity is having no idea where we are and the lack of communication is discerning that there could be a very real financial problem with the company.
IMO:
It's unlikely you'll see something like that. Hubris has been one of the few consistent features of this project, and I don't see that changing.
As far as financial comments, I think a part of the public record speaks for itself:
October 2020:
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12458/producer-s-letter-october-2020/view/post_id/242024
" ... We are currently prepared to launch the game with the current velocity of crowdfunding.... "
https://massivelyop.com/2020/10/19/pantheon-talks-pre-alpha-5-publishers-and-properly-funding-the-vision/
" ... Crowdfunding, at the rate that it is now and has been, will get the game launched. It will take […] more time than it would if we had a quicker injection from a publisher or a major investor, but I would rather get the game done quicker without sacrificing our integrity.... "
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/producers-letter-october-2020/
"... we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe. ..."
January 2021:
https://visionaryrealms.com/further-funding-acquired-for-pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/
" ... The investment provides a runway for Visionary Realms to bring the hotly-anticipated Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen to its goals in 2021 and beyond. The studio plans to use the funds to continue the game’s development; begin preparations to support over 8,000 players already signed up for an alpha release of the game; ... "
July 2022:
https://massivelyop.com/2022/07/21/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen-lands-2-4m-in-funding-and-elaborates-on-its-death-mechanics/
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/_2022/july/
" ... we have secured another $2.4 million USD from private investments to help us continue this incredible, community-building project. Added to the funds raised in earlier stages of Series A funding, our total investment capital raised to date, is now $5.34 million. ... "
Adrenicus said:Honestly what I think would be helpful to everything at the moment is if VR just came out offered an apology for all the mistakes they've made and said where exactly they are. How much there still is to go and an estimated time frame. They must be working to some kind of schedule/estimations or else that is a red flag in itself.
I think a large part of the negativity is having no idea where we are and the lack of communication is discerning that there could be a very real financial problem with the company.
Yeah, this doesn't look or sound anything like the game I dropped a grand on to support so many years ago. Does VR have any revenue streams? I don't know if it's possible but at this point I wonder if it would be better to dial it back and develop a scaled down mini-game and then use that revenue stream to develop the larger real game? The truth is mobile games deploy quickly and make a lot of money. They are not something I'm interested in but they generate revenue. Still need to fix the issues underlying issues that brought us here but it really sounds like they need a reset.
I was on a reddit sub for movies and they overwhelmingly predicted Avatar 2 would bomb and Flash would be the biggest hit of the year. Reddit is clueless about what will and wont be popular. Pretty much opposite of their collective view is probably the correct course. All this noise is just a small vocal group that is a niche of a very niche group. They dont represent the mainstream at all.
If this dev team really wanted a good focus group, they need to gather people that like both EQ and WoW when it was popular and dont like the trash that comes out now that is unpopular. In general find people that actually like games that succeed.
You got people on here praising Embers Adrift and that game has like 25 people playing it after 1 year. That is obviously not the right viewpoint to be listening too. If a gamer thinks a game is great, and it cant even appeal to more than a 100 players, then they are completely out of touch with the mainstream gamer. A game should want to appeal to a large enough group to actually be profitable so they can make expansions and have funding to improve the game further.
I certainly wouldnt be listening to someone that is that out of touch with normal gamers.
Oh just have the nerve to call me out by name.
And you know perfectly well, because i made perfectly clear, that i was only referencing Embers Adrift for the graphical style they were able to produce as a similarly sized studio.
I never said it was a "great game", or commented on its gameplay whatsover.
You know this and purposefully misrepresent (becasue you've got nothing else).
You're dishonest and its pathetic. But don't worry, VR is going to give you exactly the game that you want. Enjoy it with all the other in touch gamers.
They are all stupid and don't understand how amazing this art is.
No one is "trolling", rather trying to save this game.
I was going to give Pantheon threads a miss for a while, but when I see this kind of thing, I have to respond. Calling anyone "stupid" is trolling. End of discussion.
We may be able to make such posts in the west because of our freedoms; it does not mean we should! Calling anyone, anything derogatory is just wrong. Keep posts non attacking and we can enjoy a discussion, maybe even change people's minds. Insults lead to entrenched thinking and conflict. Do you know why social platforms have less and less restriction on content? Because it makes money. Hate makes money for those at the top! Spouting hate is not about freedom, it is about putting down an opposite view with the misconception that shouting the loudest, wins. Create your point with logic and understanding, anything else is a waste of bytes and ultimately leads to the mess we see all over the world. There are rules on here, even if VR seem to be lax now, and I am sure calling people stupid is outside of the rules set. We just dont need name calling. If it becomes the norm on here, then expect it in game too! If VR allow this on here, then expect it to be allowed in game too. I do not want a toxic game.
Back to the underlying point of this thread. Style is down to the individual. It is not a universal given. You can like one style and dislike another. That is your choice. It is not wrong or right. Personally, I want the original style direction back and loved how it was going (even if it needed work). This is my personal choice and I do not expect anyone else to agree. If they do, great. If not, great. Discuss. Discuss with passion. Point out flaws, underline benefits and costs. Discuss with logic. You cannot discuss with insults.
Personally, I think VR are making a huge mistake. That is my view and mine alone. VR will do what they want. Whether that is with me or not, remains to be seen. I have read the reasons for the change (i.e. speed of development and render rates). I am not privvy to the measurements used, so I have to accept that their reasons are true. However, I do not believe that the style change was the only way to go. Simplification of assets, maybe. The way it appears to be going, not so much.
If VR continue with this style, then I believe they will lose a lot of people like me. Their gamble is that they can get even more to replace us. Who knows. I feel that it is a slap in my face, but they are a business at the end of the day and we do know not the pressures they are being put under by the people that give them the money to create Pantheon. VR have a right to create any type of game they wish. I have a right to buy any kind of game I wish. If these two directions cross, great. If not, there will be other games for me out there.
I am not happy about the current direction. I can complain (with passion and logic) and hope VR listen. If not, I can look elsewhere. Those that like the new style can support it with as much passion. What we will end up with is anyone guess. Regardless, style preferences should not lead to insults.
chenzeme said:They are all stupid and don't understand how amazing this art is.
No one is "trolling", rather trying to save this game.
I was going to give Pantheon threads a miss for a while, but when I see this kind of thing, I have to respond. Calling anyone "stupid" is trolling. End of discussion.
In context, he wasn't calling anyone stupid. He was speaking in the voice of the other side of the argument saying that he thinks others want him to shut up because they think he and poeple like him are stupid and don't understand the art.
That said, I do believe the thread needs moderation.
Correct, thank you Ruinar for noting that.
I was clearly not calling anyone "stupid". I was pointing out that a segment of this community looks at what people are saying on forums other than the official Pantheon forums and says they are stupid and we don't need to worry about their opinions.
That is suicidal, as they are the people this game must attract, and their opinions on the new art direction are not even close to 50/50, they near unanimously reject it.
Chenzeme, thanks for declaring "End of discussion." and calling for sensorship though.
Thats a really great combination of impulses right there.
