Prevenge on the Moody or Toonie thread mentioned a post on Reddit regarding the art direction change.
It occured to me that i had not been exposed to any reactions to the new art outside of the official Pantheon forums, so i looked it up.
I think its Very informative for the followers of this game to check out the link and have a look at what people "on the outside" are saying about this.
Only in the opaque bubble of the official forums with its diehard fanboys are people saying "it lookes great!", "i like it even better!".
Its getting absolutely panned by outside observers. And Rightly So!
Please pull our heads out of the sand and see this. The new art direction is Objectively Terrible, and everyone that looks at it Objectively can see this. The devs need to admit their mistake and reverse course before its too late. Otherwise the game is simply doomed to failure.
I think you misread my statement?
11k views, 82% upvotes, the comments lean more to positive than negative, but of course are somewhat split. My point was that the forums it looks like the majority hates it, but out on Reddit and Youtube, it doesn't look so grim.
I really do think VR needs to put out another art reveal, as soon as possible with enough of the world's activities in it to let people have a GOOD idea of what it actually looks like. People didn't get anywhere close to enough to actually form a proper opinion.
Actually i was not refering to your statement so much as to the fact that your mention of the Reddit post you made got me thinking about outside discussions of Pantheon.
I had not untill that point ever looked at what outside forums were saying.
When i searched, the thread i linked was the most recent on the art subject and i do not know if its your's or not.
There are probably around 60+ responses and im seeing 5 that are positive.
And those are mostly couched with "well if it speeds up development".
The negative responses are the overwhelming majority, and pretty harsh.
One more thing Prevenge, because you mentioned it, i just looked up the comments on Youtube for the art video.
Read over the first full Thirty! comments on it, every one of them is negative. Have not seen one single positive one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnfycnyFpNc
It does indeed look pretty grim to me unfortunatly.
Yea, I just looked. All the negative comments have the most likes, so they are all at the top. It wasn't like that when I made the other comment. It was pretty split.
Don't get me wrong, I'd very much prefer realistic graphics as well, I'm not fighting FOR the new look. I'm just more open minded than most and willing to see a bigger reveal with their first set of changes (after feedback) before I judge it too harshly.
I fully believe the only reason to release such a short video is to "test the waters" with a small sampling that you've completed and then course correct based on feedback. I think you CAN make this new art style work for this game, but there is obviously some work that needs to be done to make it so.
RedGang said:I agree the new art is very offputting but it was bad before so it's kind of a rough spot to be in. At the bare minimum they need to make it look less like WoW.
This.
It is less being a fanboi and more about being realistic in our expectations. Changing a color pallate on this style and adding more grit is a lot easier than making the previous style up to modern standards.
Sarim has a point.
On the other hand - they say they made the switchover in May. They had 4 months to come up with something impressive to introduce it to their audience. One would expect a 5 minute puff piece to look better than the real thing. The 5 minute puff piece we saw was impressive to many of us but not in a positive manner.
I have hopes that they can and will make it a lot better - but if so why was the highlight they chose to share with us so ...imperfectly attractive.
Using the word "Objective" and using Reddit and Youtube as a standard of that is beyond laughable and an extremely asinine take on things. I frequent Youtube Pantheon videos almost religiously and there is absolutely NOTHING "Objective" about the superficial, false narrative, trollish drivel that comes from many of the commenters there about Pantheon. I have more to say, but I have to go to work.
I'll be laughing and crying at this nonsense all day.
Dikenzu said:Using the word "Objective" and using Reddit and Youtube as a standard of that is beyond laughable and an extremely asinine take on things. I frequent Youtube Pantheon videos almost religiously and there is absolutely NOTHING "Objective" about the superficial, false narrative, trollish drivel that comes from many of the commenters there about Pantheon. I have more to say, but I have to go to work.
I'll be laughing and crying at this nonsense all day.
Well, you used the words "asinine" and "drivel" in your response, so i guess that means you made a great point.
And you can laugh all you want. Keep in mind that plenty of fools laugh at what they don't understand.
Now pay attention and you might learn something. The people who follow the game on Reddit and Youtube and post comments on it are your Potential Player Base.
Their opinions actually matter if you want people pledging/paying subscriptions to keep this game going. And they near universally hate it.
Also, if you can look at the new art style with fawning approval, i can't take anything you say seriously. VR may appreciate your obedience though.
I'd also consider the negativity bias of the internet. More often than not people who like something or otherwise feel neutral toward a thing don't care enough to get involved or comment. The strong emotions associated with a negative take leads to far more people in that camp leaving comments. Likewise people are kind of predisposed to focus on negative information (and experiences, memories,etc).
Iksar said:I'd also consider the negativity bias of the internet. More often than not people who like something or otherwise feel neutral toward a thing don't care enough to get involved or comment. The strong emotions associated with a negative take leads to far more people in that camp leaving comments. Likewise people are kind of predisposed to focus on negative information (and experiences, memories,etc).
I think its fair enough to note the negativity bias online in general.
But by the same token, if nothing was seriously wrong with the new art direction, i doubt you would see the overwhelmingly negative responses that you are seeing on every online platform that has a discussion going on about Pantheon.
You just wouldn't see much of a response at all.
And there certainly is an army of Pantheon supporters out there who take to sites to defend/cheerlead the game. But they have been massively overshadowed to an extent that i don't think can be simply reduced to a negativity bias effect.
And to Sarim's point. I actually think a 5 min video is probably enough to know what the new art style is like. Im not sure how much more we would learn about it just by being exposed to it more.
When the public sees what you put out and is as critical of it as this reveal has been, i think you have a problem that just increasing exposier won't solve.
lotuss79 said:Dikenzu said:Using the word "Objective" and using Reddit and Youtube as a standard of that is beyond laughable and an extremely asinine take on things. I frequent Youtube Pantheon videos almost religiously and there is absolutely NOTHING "Objective" about the superficial, false narrative, trollish drivel that comes from many of the commenters there about Pantheon. I have more to say, but I have to go to work.
I'll be laughing and crying at this nonsense all day.
Well, you used the words "asinine" and "drivel" in your response, so i guess that means you made a great point.
And you can laugh all you want. Keep in mind that plenty of fools laugh at what they don't understand.
Now pay attention and you might learn something. The people who follow the game on Reddit and Youtube and post comments on it are your Potential Player Base.
Their opinions actually matter if you want people pledging/paying subscriptions to keep this game going. And they near universally hate it.
Also, if you can look at the new art style with fawning approval, i can't take anything you say seriously. VR may appreciate your obedience though.
In the immortal words of the Ojays "Money, money, money, Money!!!" Money has played a primary role in almost every major decision VR has made. This one included. Context matters when discussing Pantheon. It was too expensive and not performant and took too long to develop a game with realistic graphics. In order to rectify those things VR would need signifiant amounts of money to triple, quadruple, or quintiple+ the amount of full-time experienced developers to make a game with realistic graphics.
Intrepid has the money to take very good advantage of Epic and other studios laying off highly exprienced and talented developers...VR does not.
As far as your comments go, I only "learned" that you are doubling down on the nonsense. Let me share something with you in return:
If the "Potential Player Base" folks want to critique the art direction and give feedback on improving the current art direction like the Pantheon community has done(in all of our 'head in the sandness'), then I welcome them. If they(and you) think their 'criticism' will casue VR to changed back to a realsitc art direction, then they(and you) have unrealistic expectations of what is going on with Pantheon's development and you all need to find another game to focus on(or wait til this one finshed, becasue I know that some of the dissenters will come back and try the game after release despite the frothing at the mouth right now). No game will please and has ever pleased everyone so saying that VR should be listening to folks with unrealistic expectations is utter nonsense.
IMO, it would take, at least 15, 20 or 25+ million dollars to make VR(possibly) reconsider. It is simply NOT a matter of if enough "Potential Player Base" folks say the art is 'trash' VR will bow down and listen to them becasue the decision was not one of simply a desire to change art direction for just to rile up the community. Also, and of extremely relevent context and importance, it would take a lot more time to make Pantheon with realistic graphics. I seriously doubt the majority of these folks will support an extension of time when many of them are the very ones thrashing and trolling VR relentlessly about "this game's been in development for a million years...hErP dErP."
How many of those same "Potential Player Base" folks were a part of the lynch mob that consistently trash the previous art style on a daily basis and every video VR showed? Are they now hypocrites? Are the never satisfied with anything VR does? What solution do these 'objective' folks have for VR to cahnge the artstyle back knowing that money and time were primary contributors?
I'm also amused that you assume that I approved of the art style with "fawning approval." I'm on record as saying that I'm not a fan of the art style over the previous one. I even criticised them for replacing the monthly live streams with a 5 minute video. This is why I can't take you folks seriously. Instead of doing sincere research and actual objectivity, you folks respond with superficial information, assumptions and disingenuous rants.
BUT, becasue I am actually trying to be sincere and objective, I gave it some serious thought and the serious thought was all the above I mentioned. Now, I'm waiting for VR to show us the serious and somber tone so I can make a sincere decsion about how I feel.
JUST like the previous art style, this one is in an early iteration. It will improve over time. Playing the actual game and it having the somber mood, challenge and seriousness that fans of Pantheon are looking for will help greatly in giving folks a chance to accept the new art style. So you saying that the 5 minute video is more than enough for folks to have a real and objective take on the matter is not something I can ever agree with. Some will still not like it, but saying that VR needs to listen to those folks is nonsense. You cannot please everyone and the decision has been made...for good or ill. For very real, pragmatic and thoughtful reasons.
Dikenzu said:lotuss79 said:Dikenzu said:Using the word "Objective" and using Reddit and Youtube as a standard of that is beyond laughable and an extremely asinine take on things. I frequent Youtube Pantheon videos almost religiously and there is absolutely NOTHING "Objective" about the superficial, false narrative, trollish drivel that comes from many of the commenters there about Pantheon. I have more to say, but I have to go to work.
I'll be laughing and crying at this nonsense all day.
Well, you used the words "asinine" and "drivel" in your response, so i guess that means you made a great point.
And you can laugh all you want. Keep in mind that plenty of fools laugh at what they don't understand.
Now pay attention and you might learn something. The people who follow the game on Reddit and Youtube and post comments on it are your Potential Player Base.
Their opinions actually matter if you want people pledging/paying subscriptions to keep this game going. And they near universally hate it.
Also, if you can look at the new art style with fawning approval, i can't take anything you say seriously. VR may appreciate your obedience though.
In the immortal words of the Ojays "Money, money, money, Money!!!" Money has played a primary role in almost every major decision VR has made. This one included. Context matters when discussing Pantheon. It was too expensive and not performant and took too long to develop a game with realistic graphics. In order to rectify those things VR would need signifiant amounts of money to triple, quadruple, or quintiple+ the amount of full-time experienced developers to make a game with realistic graphics.
Intrepid has the money to take very good advantage of Epic and other studios laying off highly exprienced and talented developers...VR does not.
As far as your comments go, I only "learned" that you are doubling down on the nonsense. Let me share something with you in return:
If the "Potential Player Base" folks want to critique the art direction and give feedback on improving the current art direction like the Pantheon community has done(in all of our 'head in the sandness'), then I welcome them. If they(and you) think their 'criticism' will casue VR to changed back to a realsitc art direction, then they(and you) have unrealistic expectations of what is going on with Pantheon's development and you all need to find another game to focus on(or wait til this one finshed, becasue I know that some of the dissenters will come back and try the game after release despite the frothing at the mouth right now). No game will please and has ever pleased everyone so saying that VR should be listening to folks with unrealistic expectations is utter nonsense.
IMO, it would take, at least 15, 20 or 25+ million dollars to make VR(possibly) reconsider. It is simply NOT a matter of if enough "Potential Player Base" folks say the art is 'trash' VR will bow down and listen to them becasue the decision was not one of simply a desire to change art direction for just to rile up the community. Also, and of extremely relevent context and importance, it would take a lot more time to make Pantheon with realistic graphics. I seriously doubt the majority of these folks will support an extension of time when many of them are the very ones thrashing and trolling VR relentlessly about "this game's been in development for a million years...hErP dErP."
How many of those same "Potential Player Base" folks were a part of the lynch mob that consistently trash the previous art style on a daily basis and every video VR showed? Are they now hypocrites? Are the never satisfied with anything VR does? What solution do these 'objective' folks have for VR to cahnge the artstyle back knowing that money and time were primary contributors?
I'm also amused that you assume that I approved of the art style with "fawning approval." I'm on record as saying that I'm not a fan of the art style over the previous one. I even criticised them for replacing the monthly live streams with a 5 minute video. This is why I can't take you folks seriously. Instead of doing sincere research and actual objectivity, you folks respond with superficial information, assumptions and disingenuous rants.
BUT, becasue I am actually trying to be sincere and objective, I gave it some serious thought and the serious thought was all the above I mentioned. Now, I'm waiting for VR to show us the serious and somber tone so I can make a sincere decsion about how I feel.
JUST like the previous art style, this one is in an early iteration. It will improve over time. Playing the actual game and it having the somber mood, challenge and seriousness that fans of Pantheon are looking for will help greatly in giving folks a chance to accept the new art style. So you saying that the 5 minute video is more than enough for folks to have a real and objective take on the matter is not something I can ever agree with. Some will still not like it, but saying that VR needs to listen to those folks is nonsense. You cannot please everyone and the decision has been made...for good or ill. For very real, pragmatic and thoughtful reasons.
Indubitably!
Thank you for being the "voice of reason".
btw, all of the behavior you spent your novel criticizing is Exactly what you did in your first post. Ironic isn't it?
Anyway, they do not need $25m+ dollars to stick with a realistic art art style. Thats absurd.
I was never critical of the old art.
We are not talking about "pleasing everyone". We are talking about not "alienating everyone".
And plenty of other indi studios can render 3d art and not resort to smearing colors across a screen with no resolution or texture whatsoever.
See Embers Adrift, an even smaller outfit than VR, and they seem to have no problem.
Is VR to be pittied becasue bless their hearts they're just not capable of this?
What this is really about appealing to a new demo of gamers, and it face planted.
The online responses from the exact people they were trageting proves this.
lotuss79 said:Dikenzu said:lotuss79 said:Dikenzu said:Using the word "Objective" and using Reddit and Youtube as a standard of that is beyond laughable and an extremely asinine take on things. I frequent Youtube Pantheon videos almost religiously and there is absolutely NOTHING "Objective" about the superficial, false narrative, trollish drivel that comes from many of the commenters there about Pantheon. I have more to say, but I have to go to work.
I'll be laughing and crying at this nonsense all day.
Well, you used the words "asinine" and "drivel" in your response, so i guess that means you made a great point.
And you can laugh all you want. Keep in mind that plenty of fools laugh at what they don't understand.
Now pay attention and you might learn something. The people who follow the game on Reddit and Youtube and post comments on it are your Potential Player Base.
Their opinions actually matter if you want people pledging/paying subscriptions to keep this game going. And they near universally hate it.
Also, if you can look at the new art style with fawning approval, i can't take anything you say seriously. VR may appreciate your obedience though.
In the immortal words of the Ojays "Money, money, money, Money!!!" Money has played a primary role in almost every major decision VR has made. This one included. Context matters when discussing Pantheon. It was too expensive and not performant and took too long to develop a game with realistic graphics. In order to rectify those things VR would need signifiant amounts of money to triple, quadruple, or quintiple+ the amount of full-time experienced developers to make a game with realistic graphics.
Intrepid has the money to take very good advantage of Epic and other studios laying off highly exprienced and talented developers...VR does not.
As far as your comments go, I only "learned" that you are doubling down on the nonsense. Let me share something with you in return:
If the "Potential Player Base" folks want to critique the art direction and give feedback on improving the current art direction like the Pantheon community has done(in all of our 'head in the sandness'), then I welcome them. If they(and you) think their 'criticism' will casue VR to changed back to a realsitc art direction, then they(and you) have unrealistic expectations of what is going on with Pantheon's development and you all need to find another game to focus on(or wait til this one finshed, becasue I know that some of the dissenters will come back and try the game after release despite the frothing at the mouth right now). No game will please and has ever pleased everyone so saying that VR should be listening to folks with unrealistic expectations is utter nonsense.
IMO, it would take, at least 15, 20 or 25+ million dollars to make VR(possibly) reconsider. It is simply NOT a matter of if enough "Potential Player Base" folks say the art is 'trash' VR will bow down and listen to them becasue the decision was not one of simply a desire to change art direction for just to rile up the community. Also, and of extremely relevent context and importance, it would take a lot more time to make Pantheon with realistic graphics. I seriously doubt the majority of these folks will support an extension of time when many of them are the very ones thrashing and trolling VR relentlessly about "this game's been in development for a million years...hErP dErP."
How many of those same "Potential Player Base" folks were a part of the lynch mob that consistently trash the previous art style on a daily basis and every video VR showed? Are they now hypocrites? Are the never satisfied with anything VR does? What solution do these 'objective' folks have for VR to cahnge the artstyle back knowing that money and time were primary contributors?
I'm also amused that you assume that I approved of the art style with "fawning approval." I'm on record as saying that I'm not a fan of the art style over the previous one. I even criticised them for replacing the monthly live streams with a 5 minute video. This is why I can't take you folks seriously. Instead of doing sincere research and actual objectivity, you folks respond with superficial information, assumptions and disingenuous rants.
BUT, becasue I am actually trying to be sincere and objective, I gave it some serious thought and the serious thought was all the above I mentioned. Now, I'm waiting for VR to show us the serious and somber tone so I can make a sincere decsion about how I feel.
JUST like the previous art style, this one is in an early iteration. It will improve over time. Playing the actual game and it having the somber mood, challenge and seriousness that fans of Pantheon are looking for will help greatly in giving folks a chance to accept the new art style. So you saying that the 5 minute video is more than enough for folks to have a real and objective take on the matter is not something I can ever agree with. Some will still not like it, but saying that VR needs to listen to those folks is nonsense. You cannot please everyone and the decision has been made...for good or ill. For very real, pragmatic and thoughtful reasons.
Indubitably!
Thank you for being the "voice of reason".
btw, all of the behavior you spent your novel criticizing is Exactly what you did in your first post. Ironic isn't it?
Anyway, they do not need $25m+ dollars to stick with a realistic art art style. Thats absurd.
I was never critical of the old art.
We are not talking about "pleasing everyone". We are talking about not "alienating everyone".
And plenty of other indi studios can render 3d art and not resort to smearing colors across a screen with no resolution or texture whatsoever.
See Embers Adrift, an even smaller outfit than VR, and they seem to have no problem.
Is VR to be pittied becasue bless their hearts they're just not capable of this?
What this is really about appealing to a new demo of gamers, and it face planted.
The online responses from the exact people they were trageting proves this.
I don't even know what the point of your first sentence, but whatever. I write the way I do to give the context that I feel is missing and not give meme-like, superficial responses. I also try to address all the major points made by the person I'm responding to and not ignore points just to say I responded.
I play Embers, do you? Embers is a decent game and I have enjoyed my time playing, but it is not on the scale of Pantheon in terms of population or size and complexity of the world or gameplay. Right now there is only one server of several hundreds(maybe a thousand or more...they don't show that information in their game. No critcism, just a stating a fact) of people. VR estimates over 10,000+ folks just for Alpha. How performant would Embers be if they had those numbers? Their server hasn't been tested with large population vying for space in their dungeons and thousands of players all in one zone. If they can pull that off, then we can revisit.So, comparing them at this point(without sincere context) is meaningless, but folks like you do so anyway.
I like how you use peicemeal information to make your points though. Then you said "I wasn't critical of the old art" while ignoring that you are talking about a "Potential Player Base"(not just yourself) and plenty of them WERE critical. Then you went back to the "Potential Player Base" to make another point. stick to one frame of thought sir.
So, where are all those Indie, crowdfunded developed MMOS(yes MMOS) with modern realistic graphics that you say exist? Embers is just one game and hasn't gone through a serious test of their game with a large population. They might be going through that with the introduction of magic this month, so it will interesting to see how all of that plays out.
You dismissing my very real reasons for the graphic change acting like it will alienate everyone is nonsense for the reasons I already gave. You ignoring those reasons does not make your point more valid.Then you make up your own narrative(using only the words of VR that makes your point and being disingeuously dismissive of the other real points) is called confirmation bias...look it up.
You must be on a variant Reddit and Youtube. Not the one that had endless cricism of the previous graphics(and that criticism playing a role in the new art direction), time spent on the game and other things(time which would be extended with realistic graphics, but, yet again, you ignore that point becasue it doesn't fit your false narrative.)
You acting like all of that didn't exist is suspect.
Dikenzu said:lotuss79 said:Dikenzu said:lotuss79 said:Dikenzu said:Using the word "Objective" and using Reddit and Youtube as a standard of that is beyond laughable and an extremely asinine take on things. I frequent Youtube Pantheon videos almost religiously and there is absolutely NOTHING "Objective" about the superficial, false narrative, trollish drivel that comes from many of the commenters there about Pantheon. I have more to say, but I have to go to work.
I'll be laughing and crying at this nonsense all day.
Well, you used the words "asinine" and "drivel" in your response, so i guess that means you made a great point.
And you can laugh all you want. Keep in mind that plenty of fools laugh at what they don't understand.
Now pay attention and you might learn something. The people who follow the game on Reddit and Youtube and post comments on it are your Potential Player Base.
Their opinions actually matter if you want people pledging/paying subscriptions to keep this game going. And they near universally hate it.
Also, if you can look at the new art style with fawning approval, i can't take anything you say seriously. VR may appreciate your obedience though.
In the immortal words of the Ojays "Money, money, money, Money!!!" Money has played a primary role in almost every major decision VR has made. This one included. Context matters when discussing Pantheon. It was too expensive and not performant and took too long to develop a game with realistic graphics. In order to rectify those things VR would need signifiant amounts of money to triple, quadruple, or quintiple+ the amount of full-time experienced developers to make a game with realistic graphics.
Intrepid has the money to take very good advantage of Epic and other studios laying off highly exprienced and talented developers...VR does not.
As far as your comments go, I only "learned" that you are doubling down on the nonsense. Let me share something with you in return:
If the "Potential Player Base" folks want to critique the art direction and give feedback on improving the current art direction like the Pantheon community has done(in all of our 'head in the sandness'), then I welcome them. If they(and you) think their 'criticism' will casue VR to changed back to a realsitc art direction, then they(and you) have unrealistic expectations of what is going on with Pantheon's development and you all need to find another game to focus on(or wait til this one finshed, becasue I know that some of the dissenters will come back and try the game after release despite the frothing at the mouth right now). No game will please and has ever pleased everyone so saying that VR should be listening to folks with unrealistic expectations is utter nonsense.
IMO, it would take, at least 15, 20 or 25+ million dollars to make VR(possibly) reconsider. It is simply NOT a matter of if enough "Potential Player Base" folks say the art is 'trash' VR will bow down and listen to them becasue the decision was not one of simply a desire to change art direction for just to rile up the community. Also, and of extremely relevent context and importance, it would take a lot more time to make Pantheon with realistic graphics. I seriously doubt the majority of these folks will support an extension of time when many of them are the very ones thrashing and trolling VR relentlessly about "this game's been in development for a million years...hErP dErP."
How many of those same "Potential Player Base" folks were a part of the lynch mob that consistently trash the previous art style on a daily basis and every video VR showed? Are they now hypocrites? Are the never satisfied with anything VR does? What solution do these 'objective' folks have for VR to cahnge the artstyle back knowing that money and time were primary contributors?
I'm also amused that you assume that I approved of the art style with "fawning approval." I'm on record as saying that I'm not a fan of the art style over the previous one. I even criticised them for replacing the monthly live streams with a 5 minute video. This is why I can't take you folks seriously. Instead of doing sincere research and actual objectivity, you folks respond with superficial information, assumptions and disingenuous rants.
BUT, becasue I am actually trying to be sincere and objective, I gave it some serious thought and the serious thought was all the above I mentioned. Now, I'm waiting for VR to show us the serious and somber tone so I can make a sincere decsion about how I feel.
JUST like the previous art style, this one is in an early iteration. It will improve over time. Playing the actual game and it having the somber mood, challenge and seriousness that fans of Pantheon are looking for will help greatly in giving folks a chance to accept the new art style. So you saying that the 5 minute video is more than enough for folks to have a real and objective take on the matter is not something I can ever agree with. Some will still not like it, but saying that VR needs to listen to those folks is nonsense. You cannot please everyone and the decision has been made...for good or ill. For very real, pragmatic and thoughtful reasons.
Indubitably!
Thank you for being the "voice of reason".
btw, all of the behavior you spent your novel criticizing is Exactly what you did in your first post. Ironic isn't it?
Anyway, they do not need $25m+ dollars to stick with a realistic art art style. Thats absurd.
I was never critical of the old art.
We are not talking about "pleasing everyone". We are talking about not "alienating everyone".
And plenty of other indi studios can render 3d art and not resort to smearing colors across a screen with no resolution or texture whatsoever.
See Embers Adrift, an even smaller outfit than VR, and they seem to have no problem.
Is VR to be pittied becasue bless their hearts they're just not capable of this?
What this is really about appealing to a new demo of gamers, and it face planted.
The online responses from the exact people they were trageting proves this.
I don't even know what the point of your first sentence, but whatever. I write the way I do to give the context that I feel is missing and not give meme-like, superficial responses. I also try to address all the major points made by the person I'm responding to and not ignore points just to say I responded.
I play Embers, do you? Embers is a decent game and I have enjoyed my time playing, but it is not on the scale of Pantheon in terms of population or size and complexity of the world or gameplay. Right now there is only one server of several hundreds(maybe a thousand or more...they don't show that information in their game. No critcism, just a stating a fact) of people. VR estimates over 10,000+ folks just for Alpha. How performant would Embers be if they had those numbers? Their server hasn't been tested with large population vying for space in their dungeons and thousands of players all in one zone. If they can pull that off, then we can revisit.So, comparing them at this point(without sincere context) is meaningless, but folks like you do so anyway.
I like how you use peicemeal information to make your points though. Then you said "I wasn't critical of the old art" while ignoring that you are talking about a "Potential Player Base"(not just yourself) and plenty of them WERE critical. Then you went back to the "Potential Player Base" to make another point. stick to one frame of thought sir.
So, where are all those Indie, crowdfunded developed MMOS(yes MMOS) with modern realistic graphics that you say exist? Embers is just one game and hasn't gone through a serious test of their game with a large population. They might be going through that with the introduction of magic this month, so it will interesting to see how all of that plays out.
You dismissing my very real reasons for the graphic change acting like it will alienate everyone is nonsense for the reasons I already gave. You ignoring those reasons does not make your point more valid.Then you make up your own narrative(using only the words of VR that makes your point and being disingeuously dismissive of the other real points) is called confirmation bias...look it up.
You must be on a variant Reddit and Youtube. Not the one that had endless cricism of the previous graphics(and that criticism playing a role in the new art direction), time spent on the game and other things(time which would be extended with realistic graphics, but, yet again, you ignore that point becasue it doesn't fit your false narrative.)
You acting like all of that didn't exist is suspect.
Lol VR estimated 10000+ for their pre-alpha's. Lol. I'd be surprised if they can even pull 200 these days man.
I don't think people would mind actual stylized and "handcrafted" art for the game.. If it at least didn't look like a damn Fortnite clone for tinky winky kiddies in their 8-14 age group. Heck it.. I'll say it. Even World of Warcraft Classic looks a thousands times better than this. It's a huge middle finger to WoW Classic when people compare its art style to Pantheons, something WoW does not deserve - you can dislike the game and it's "easier" gameplay than EQ, but at least it's nailed it's atmosphere and Warcraft style.
Here's how it's split in the community
1. People that do not mind if it speeds up production (lol, that's what we thought the last.. many times when they said that sort of lies) - but they don't like the art.
2. People that actually like the new art style.
3. People that vehemently hates it.
Here's the thing. Half of the remaining community hates it, that much is obvious from the Youtube like to dislike ratio.. 1 and 2 combined makes up for 50% of the community and 3 makes up the other 50%.
I would also like to point out how the Gryphon has wings that clips through it's model making for all sorts of janky animations (spider legs too). I said it looks like something a 1st year 3D model student has done, but honestly that's doing 1st year 3D model students a disservice. They do far better than this.
One may also assume that this is but the first of many appeals to a broader audience to come. I just wonder what will be next. Instanced Dungeons/Raids? Full solo experience? No social aspect. 'Cos the new generations of gamers ain't going to sit and accept that they can't zoom in a game, so this "appeal" is going to fall real flat on them when they realize they have to *gasp* socialize to play the game and even more go full rage mode when they realize they have to fight other people for dungeon mobs/bosses. That audience is gonna play for a week - tops, then move on and in the end all you managed to do was alienate half of your loyal fans.
The sad part is that:
1. We were told that classes would now be a 6 week process a fair while back. That didn't happen. Most are still not implemented.
2. We were told that the new network code would really help performance. Apparently - that didn't happen either, 'cos here we are with Art that's supposed to "help" with performance.
3. We were told that Project Faerthale was almost ready for testing and that would signify the end of PA's. That never happened.
4. We were told that they had to completely redo everything from hardcoded to dynamic, but that it would speed up development. We're now on the 10th year of development and no significant speed has occurred.
5. We were told that they had to focus on their pipelines a good year or 2 ago. Jesus christ that's the FIRST thing you do as that is the foundation of everything there is to come. Without proper pipelines you're not going anywhere.
And somehow we still have apologetic people that's not, rightfully so, angry.
Thanks for the reminder Ashreon, class implementations in 6 weeks, thats an especially good one.
Dikenzu, you got me! Dissected my argument perfectly.
VR's hands were tied and they had no option but to change to the most childishly cartoony graphics possible.
Otherwise how on earth could they have multiple players in the same zone at the same time etc etc.
I really need to look at the big picture and remove my confirmation bias.
On an unrelated note, some people will believe absolutely Anything.
Ashreon said:Dikenzu said:lotuss79 said:Dikenzu said:lotuss79 said:Dikenzu said:Using the word "Objective" and using Reddit and Youtube as a standard of that is beyond laughable and an extremely asinine take on things. I frequent Youtube Pantheon videos almost religiously and there is absolutely NOTHING "Objective" about the superficial, false narrative, trollish drivel that comes from many of the commenters there about Pantheon. I have more to say, but I have to go to work.
I'll be laughing and crying at this nonsense all day.
Well, you used the words "asinine" and "drivel" in your response, so i guess that means you made a great point.
And you can laugh all you want. Keep in mind that plenty of fools laugh at what they don't understand.
Now pay attention and you might learn something. The people who follow the game on Reddit and Youtube and post comments on it are your Potential Player Base.
Their opinions actually matter if you want people pledging/paying subscriptions to keep this game going. And they near universally hate it.
Also, if you can look at the new art style with fawning approval, i can't take anything you say seriously. VR may appreciate your obedience though.
In the immortal words of the Ojays "Money, money, money, Money!!!" Money has played a primary role in almost every major decision VR has made. This one included. Context matters when discussing Pantheon. It was too expensive and not performant and took too long to develop a game with realistic graphics. In order to rectify those things VR would need signifiant amounts of money to triple, quadruple, or quintiple+ the amount of full-time experienced developers to make a game with realistic graphics.
Intrepid has the money to take very good advantage of Epic and other studios laying off highly exprienced and talented developers...VR does not.
As far as your comments go, I only "learned" that you are doubling down on the nonsense. Let me share something with you in return:
If the "Potential Player Base" folks want to critique the art direction and give feedback on improving the current art direction like the Pantheon community has done(in all of our 'head in the sandness'), then I welcome them. If they(and you) think their 'criticism' will casue VR to changed back to a realsitc art direction, then they(and you) have unrealistic expectations of what is going on with Pantheon's development and you all need to find another game to focus on(or wait til this one finshed, becasue I know that some of the dissenters will come back and try the game after release despite the frothing at the mouth right now). No game will please and has ever pleased everyone so saying that VR should be listening to folks with unrealistic expectations is utter nonsense.
IMO, it would take, at least 15, 20 or 25+ million dollars to make VR(possibly) reconsider. It is simply NOT a matter of if enough "Potential Player Base" folks say the art is 'trash' VR will bow down and listen to them becasue the decision was not one of simply a desire to change art direction for just to rile up the community. Also, and of extremely relevent context and importance, it would take a lot more time to make Pantheon with realistic graphics. I seriously doubt the majority of these folks will support an extension of time when many of them are the very ones thrashing and trolling VR relentlessly about "this game's been in development for a million years...hErP dErP."
How many of those same "Potential Player Base" folks were a part of the lynch mob that consistently trash the previous art style on a daily basis and every video VR showed? Are they now hypocrites? Are the never satisfied with anything VR does? What solution do these 'objective' folks have for VR to cahnge the artstyle back knowing that money and time were primary contributors?
I'm also amused that you assume that I approved of the art style with "fawning approval." I'm on record as saying that I'm not a fan of the art style over the previous one. I even criticised them for replacing the monthly live streams with a 5 minute video. This is why I can't take you folks seriously. Instead of doing sincere research and actual objectivity, you folks respond with superficial information, assumptions and disingenuous rants.
BUT, becasue I am actually trying to be sincere and objective, I gave it some serious thought and the serious thought was all the above I mentioned. Now, I'm waiting for VR to show us the serious and somber tone so I can make a sincere decsion about how I feel.
JUST like the previous art style, this one is in an early iteration. It will improve over time. Playing the actual game and it having the somber mood, challenge and seriousness that fans of Pantheon are looking for will help greatly in giving folks a chance to accept the new art style. So you saying that the 5 minute video is more than enough for folks to have a real and objective take on the matter is not something I can ever agree with. Some will still not like it, but saying that VR needs to listen to those folks is nonsense. You cannot please everyone and the decision has been made...for good or ill. For very real, pragmatic and thoughtful reasons.
Indubitably!
Thank you for being the "voice of reason".
btw, all of the behavior you spent your novel criticizing is Exactly what you did in your first post. Ironic isn't it?
Anyway, they do not need $25m+ dollars to stick with a realistic art art style. Thats absurd.
I was never critical of the old art.
We are not talking about "pleasing everyone". We are talking about not "alienating everyone".
And plenty of other indi studios can render 3d art and not resort to smearing colors across a screen with no resolution or texture whatsoever.
See Embers Adrift, an even smaller outfit than VR, and they seem to have no problem.
Is VR to be pittied becasue bless their hearts they're just not capable of this?
What this is really about appealing to a new demo of gamers, and it face planted.
The online responses from the exact people they were trageting proves this.
I don't even know what the point of your first sentence, but whatever. I write the way I do to give the context that I feel is missing and not give meme-like, superficial responses. I also try to address all the major points made by the person I'm responding to and not ignore points just to say I responded.
I play Embers, do you? Embers is a decent game and I have enjoyed my time playing, but it is not on the scale of Pantheon in terms of population or size and complexity of the world or gameplay. Right now there is only one server of several hundreds(maybe a thousand or more...they don't show that information in their game. No critcism, just a stating a fact) of people. VR estimates over 10,000+ folks just for Alpha. How performant would Embers be if they had those numbers? Their server hasn't been tested with large population vying for space in their dungeons and thousands of players all in one zone. If they can pull that off, then we can revisit.So, comparing them at this point(without sincere context) is meaningless, but folks like you do so anyway.
I like how you use peicemeal information to make your points though. Then you said "I wasn't critical of the old art" while ignoring that you are talking about a "Potential Player Base"(not just yourself) and plenty of them WERE critical. Then you went back to the "Potential Player Base" to make another point. stick to one frame of thought sir.
So, where are all those Indie, crowdfunded developed MMOS(yes MMOS) with modern realistic graphics that you say exist? Embers is just one game and hasn't gone through a serious test of their game with a large population. They might be going through that with the introduction of magic this month, so it will interesting to see how all of that plays out.
You dismissing my very real reasons for the graphic change acting like it will alienate everyone is nonsense for the reasons I already gave. You ignoring those reasons does not make your point more valid.Then you make up your own narrative(using only the words of VR that makes your point and being disingeuously dismissive of the other real points) is called confirmation bias...look it up.
You must be on a variant Reddit and Youtube. Not the one that had endless cricism of the previous graphics(and that criticism playing a role in the new art direction), time spent on the game and other things(time which would be extended with realistic graphics, but, yet again, you ignore that point becasue it doesn't fit your false narrative.)
You acting like all of that didn't exist is suspect.
Lol VR estimated 10000+ for their pre-alpha's. Lol. I'd be surprised if they can even pull 200 these days man.
Good thing the facts of the matter is not up to your being "surprised"
I don't think people would mind actual stylized and "handcrafted" art for the game.. If it at least didn't look like a damn Fortnite clone for tinky winky kiddies in their 8-14 age group. Heck it.. I'll say it. Even World of Warcraft Classic looks a thousands times better than this. It's a huge middle finger to WoW Classic when people compare its art style to Pantheons, something WoW does not deserve - you can dislike the game and it's "easier" gameplay than EQ, but at least it's nailed it's atmosphere and Warcraft style.
The previous art got thrashed relentlessly, so the hate is not much different now...but go on and act like it is and ignore the truth.
#variantredditandyoutube
Here's how it's split in the community
1. People that do not mind if it speeds up production (lol, that's what we thought the last.. many times when they said that sort of lies) - but they don't like the art.
2. People that actually like the new art style.
3. People that vehemently hates it.
The community was split when the previous art style was there.
1. People that thrashed the art daily and said VR should be ashamed to show it to the public until it's looks better. Community Reddit poster: "Asmongold/Narc did a video on Pantheon and blah, blah, yackety smackety."
2. People that understood that actually LISTENED to VR and knew that art wasn't a priority. That the new models and animations were being worked on and that everything being shown were placeholders.
3. People that liked the art and saw it improving over time.
Here's the thing. Half of the remaining community hates it, that much is obvious from the Youtube like to dislike ratio.. 1 and 2 combined makes up for 50% of the community and 3 makes up the other 50%.
I would also like to point out how the Gryphon has wings that clips through it's model making for all sorts of janky animations (spider legs too). I said it looks like something a 1st year 3D model student has done, but honestly that's doing 1st year 3D model students a disservice. They do far better than this.
Just like the previous art(which AGAIN was thrashed relentlessly by the "Potential Player Base"), this art is in an early iteration. We have NEVER seen what an Alpha ready or Release Date ready art style of Pantheon looks like. Just like the previous art, VR will be working on improving the art, animations and such. Acting like it's a 'final' version to critique and not a WIP is a profoundly weak and ignorant comment to make. Pointing out things to improve becasue you understand that it's a WIP...fine. Which one are you?
So they dislike the art...that is their right. What do they think will happen after that? This is not a decision up for debate to be rescinded if you list stats and percentages and such. Unless VR gets a very significant amount of money(and for the other reasons already given that you folks still ignore), the art direction will remain. What is the goal of the folks that don't like the art? What do they expect to gain from this? If it's just to voice their displeasure because they can, then fine continue to express yourselves. If it's something else, than you're wasting your time unless you all have a major investor in your collective back pockets.
I'm not a fan of the new style over the old as well, but after taking EVERYTHING into consideration and looking at the big picture, I'm looking forward to more reveals, gameplay and such to see how this progresses...simple.
One may also assume that this is but the first of many appeals to a broader audience to come. I just wonder what will be next. Instanced Dungeons/Raids? Full solo experience? No social aspect. 'Cos the new generations of gamers ain't going to sit and accept that they can't zoom in a game, so this "appeal" is going to fall real flat on them when they realize they have to *gasp* socialize to play the game and even more go full rage mode when they realize they have to fight other people for dungeon mobs/bosses. That audience is gonna play for a week - tops, then move on and in the end all you managed to do was alienate half of your loyal fans.
Yes, the slippery slope fallacy has NEVER been used against VR, so let's dust that off, buff it up and put it on it's pathetically cliched display.
The sad part is that:
1. We were told that classes would now be a 6 week process a fair while back. That didn't happen. Most are still not implemented.
2. We were told that the new network code would really help performance. Apparently - that didn't happen either, 'cos here we are with Art that's supposed to "help" with performance.
3. We were told that Project Faerthale was almost ready for testing and that would signify the end of PA's. That never happened.
4. We were told that they had to completely redo everything from hardcoded to dynamic, but that it would speed up development. We're now on the 10th year of development and no significant speed has occurred.
5. We were told that they had to focus on their pipelines a good year or 2 ago. Jesus christ that's the FIRST thing you do as that is the foundation of everything there is to come. Without proper pipelines you're not going anywhere.( of particualr note. They had NO money, a failed Kickstarter and volunteers. Trying to be a backseat driver now and not even considering how challenging things were and that they DID NOT have the resources to hire the experienced project managers, programmers, artists, animators and such that you folks keep saying they should have been used FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. The only recourse was to GIVE UP...I guess they should according to some of you...literally. Then NONE of us would be having this conversation...hmmm, ever thought of that? Or, maybe you just don't care. It still is what it is regardless. OR, work with what they had until things got better. They have been playing catch up the entire 9+years...for good or ill. NONE of what I said was said as an excuse, but just a statement of fact.)
YAY, welcome to game development!!!. No game has been made without pitfalls, setbacks and plenty of mistakes. My only question after knowing all of what you said is did VR do all of this to anger the community, scam them, or (insert nefarious descriptor)? Or, did they make plenty of mistakes, fumbles and such due to learning, growing and a passion and desire to live up to what they and the community they make the game for.
Moreover, we were never privy to the mistakes made by EQ, WoW, Guildwars and many many other games during their development. BUT they were made and the sting of dealing with all of that is infinitesimal as an AFTERTHOUGHT vs experiencing them all in REAL TIME like we are doing now. We critique, criticize, praise, motivate, demand and share the pitfalls and victories and move forward as a community or we leave to give our support to something else.
The choice is yours.
And somehow we still have apologetic people that's not, rightfully so, angry.
What is your point in all of this? What do you want? I'm asking for realistic expectations and constructive criticism and suggestions, NOT more ranting.
I have pledged to VR and have not regretted it..at all. You trying to suggest that I should share in your endless anger is utterly pointless. When I feel that the game no longers supports the tenets or vision I have for the game, I will leave. No crying or whining. No frothing at the mouth...just leave. As I have said countless times. I'm here to enjoy the experience of this game's development. I give critcism when I FEEL it's necessary and support the criticism of those in the community that I see as being given in good faith....NOT becasue you think I should...the nerve of you folks.
BUT, I'm not going to be up-in-arms about this becasue no game is worth me being constantly disappointed, angry and such. I don't care how "rightfully so" you think it should. I left my favorite game of all time, WoW, becasue I wasn't enjoying the exprience anymore. I have no reservations about doing so again. That was infinitely more 'traumatic' for me than this is. I'm still very much looking forward to Pantheon. DESPITE all the negatives I see and others have shown. The positives outweigh them still and I will NEVER be apart of a lynch mob group that, IMO, does not comment in good faith.
The OP insulted the entire community with his nonsense and then hypocritically says he/"The Potential Player Base" is being objective. Again, an asinine and laughable comment....still.
lotuss79 said:What this is really about appealing to a new demo of gamers, and it face planted.
The online responses from the exact people they were trageting proves this.
This ^
The top three most populated games are Minecraft, League of Legends and Fortnite...
If you've never seen Fortnite graphics, you should check it out, and research that community's feedback regarding PRotF.
If VR can get even half of those players interested, that's easily $10mil just in $100 pledges. This is just an assumption of course, but its hard to ignore.
Dikenzu said:Using the word "Objective" and using Reddit and Youtube as a standard of that is beyond laughable and an extremely asinine take on things. I frequent Youtube Pantheon videos almost religiously and there is absolutely NOTHING "Objective" about the superficial, false narrative, trollish drivel that comes from many of the commenters there about Pantheon. I have more to say, but I have to go to work.
I'll be laughing and crying at this nonsense all day.
Good point. You're right that opinions on Reddit and the Youtube comments are not an objective view of what all "potential players" will think of Pantheon. And, as I am sure you agree, "potential players" encompasses almost every single MMO player on the planet and is not a metric to pursue. As a rule, IDGAF what Youtube commenters and Reddit commenters say. That said, I feel fairly passionately about this recent change and I did look at the Youtube commentary and the Reddit commentary and found it interesting. That "interestingness" is enough to merit this post, dispite its biased language.
But I didn't find reddit/youtube comments nearly as interesting as I did how this change has energized the community. These forums are hopping in a way that they haven't in years. I am checking the discords of some of Pantheon's community and am seeing discouragement there and lively discussion. Some of VR's biggest evangelists are discouraged and communicating unenthusiastically about this change. If you watch P+ regular streams as well as Napalm's regular streams there is real discouragement in the community. Most of the discouragement is about the development pace and lack of communication but this art change catalyzed the 'anxiety' that the community was already feeling.
I hope VR doesn't assume that the people on this forum who decided to come back and post about this change after long silence are naysayers. Don't assume that they are poeple who hope Pantheon will fail. The discouragement is real, and more immense than I have sensed since following this game.
Ruinar said:Dikenzu said:Using the word "Objective" and using Reddit and Youtube as a standard of that is beyond laughable and an extremely asinine take on things. I frequent Youtube Pantheon videos almost religiously and there is absolutely NOTHING "Objective" about the superficial, false narrative, trollish drivel that comes from many of the commenters there about Pantheon. I have more to say, but I have to go to work.
I'll be laughing and crying at this nonsense all day.
Good point. You're right that opinions on Reddit and the Youtube comments are not an objective view of what all "potential players" will think of Pantheon. And, as I am sure you agree, "potential players" encompasses almost every single MMO player on the planet and is not a metric to pursue. As a rule, IDGAF what Youtube commenters and Reddit commenters say. That said, I feel fairly passionately about this recent change and I did look at the Youtube commentary and the Reddit commentary and found it interesting. That "interestingness" is enough to merit this post, dispite its biased language.
But I didn't find reddit/youtube comments nearly as interesting as I did how this change has energized the community. These forums are hopping in a way that they haven't in years. I am checking the discords of some of Pantheon's community and am seeing discouragement there and lively discussion. Some of VR's biggest evangelists are discouraged and communicating unenthusiastically about this change. If you watch P+ regular streams as well as Napalm's regular streams there is real discouragement in the community. Most of the discouragement is about the defelopment pace and lack of communication but this art change catalyzed the 'anxiety' that the community was already feeling.
Don't assume that the people on this forum who decided to come back and post about this change are naysayers. Don't assume that they are poeple who hope Pantheon will fail. The discouragement is real, and more immense than I have sensed since following this game.
I made no assumptions about folks being displeased, I was one of them.(as I have already mentioned). I noticed the change before the art reveal and it has been going on for the past year in all the areas you mention becasue I faithfully follow those content creators, read the Forums, Discord and other social media. This is just a culimination of things to that point. I actually think it started near the end of the year of "Imminence."
But, I am not here to dwell in negativity and disappointment or support the relentless negative comments. I stated my criticism and then examined everything that was said and made a decsion as to how I want to proceed with this. The choice was to continue to support the game, support the community who critique VR and Pantheon(in good faith) and look forward to seeing more of the development.
What exactly do these folks think will happen with all the criticism? Do they actually think them being up-in-arms about the art direction will change VR's mind? Or, are they just sharing their thoughts like they are entitled to? The former is problematic/unrealistic and the latter is fine, IMO. For ALL the reasons already given by VR, the art direction will be going forward unless there is a SIGNIFICANT or MAJOR change in funding to bring in the massive amount of staff it would take to finish the game in a reasonable time with realistic graphics. It's like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Going back would STILL extend the development of the game(99.99% would not approve of the years added on with the current staff if VR went back to the previous art style despite the strong criticism about the new, IMO) and VR would StILL have all the issues they explained. Without the significant resources how do they overcome that?
I'm also looking at a big picture. There are folks who have joined the community because of the art change(as much as becoming VIPs). This MIGHT help them get addtional funding from investors(I DONT KNOW but CHOOSE to be hopeful about it).
I'm also of the mind that VR is VERY AWARE of all of this, so they will either show the proof of faster development, begin the 24/7 testing, present us with a more comprehensive Alpha Tracker, show significant progress(new classes, races, system etc.) over the next 4-5 months, work hard to get more staff and finances...or fail. I'm here for the former, not the latter.
My "shock and awe" over the art change is mostly over. I'm now much more interested in how VR and the development of Pantheon will move forward. I'm not here to dwell in negativity and to process constant disappointment in VR. Others do so, but that's not my thing. As I have said before, when I get to the point that so many of these other folks have gotten, I will just leave...period. I'm nowhere near that point yet and, again, not interested in co-signing it or wallowing in it. I empathize to a certain degree(because I experienced SOME of it as well), but I'm forcing myself past that. I'm here to enjoy the process not feel disppointed and frustarted by it. My time could be better spent on other things I actually enjoy.
That has ALWAYS been my take until the game is released.
Are you suggesting that each person should have expressed their opinion, decided whether to continue support, and then move on? Do you genuinely belive that community outcry doesn't influence developer decisions?
Also, many people who pledged to Pantheon years ago have been doing "other things that they actually enjoy" until this change happened and it was enough for them to speak out. Shouldn't VR take notice of that?
Ruinar said:Are you suggesting that each person should have expressed their opinion, decided whether to continue support, and then move on? Do you genuinely belive that community outcry doesn't influence developer decisions?
Also, many people who pledged to Pantheon years ago have been doing "other things that they actually enjoy" until this change happened and it was enough for them to speak out. Shouldn't VR take notice of that?
No, I'm expressing why I'm not engaging in it...simply. I'm not the one wanting folks to join a crusade like the OP did using the "potential" game community and the other dude saying I should feel "angry". I'm giving my point of view and responding to someone who tried to insult, belittle and use questionable 'data' to get the community HERE into joining his "outrage." I can think for myself and feel I have expressed my points very clearly.
Community outcry can affect and has affected LOTS of changes in Pantheon and games in general. But you asking me that question while not taking into account the context in which I said it has me wondering. Again, in the context of the art change, how does "Community Outcry" make VR change back to realistic graphics when you sincerely accept ALL the reasons that VR gave for the change and not just the one of two reason that some of these folks creating with their own narrative are saying? How specifically and exactly does VR "taking notice" of long time pledgers dissatisfaction play out within the context I already exhaustively laid out? Folks want a change BACK to the previous style. VR saying I'm sorry and trying to pacify them while STILL keeping the new style won't appease them, IMO. So, how do you(or anyone else reading this) suggest they "take notice?"
As I have repeatedly stated, MONEY and TIME are major factors in this decision. You don't get to just change direction with the art back because of "Community Outcry." Their "approval" or "disapproval" of this specific thing will not overcome the reasons the change was made in the first place. Redoing the Alpha Tracker, Adding Transmorg, adding Necromancer and Bard becasue folks are saying it makes no sense to have a quaternity without them at launch, and plenty of other things can be changed because of "Coummunity Outcry." But, again, how does "Community Outcry" change VR's mind and AND solve ALL(not just one or two) of the issues they gave as the reason for the art change?"
I'm repeating myself, for empahsis, because it still seems like folks are just ignoring points to make other points and only addressing/attacking certain points and not the entirety of my comments.