Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Opinion - Thoughts on augmenting weapons and armor?

    • 2756 posts
    September 21, 2022 1:15 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    IMO:

    Ah, so they're considering adding augments for drops, then, and not for crafting, GoofyWarriorGuy? 
    Or is that not what you're attempting to suggest?

    What I read from what Goofy compiled was that the intention is not that crafted items would be 'basic' with augments providing most of the power/interest.

    I would imagine in this regard, crafted items would be just like standard looted items, where the primary power is from the item itself.

    In either case, any augment will likely be just that: an augmentation (that makes the item greatER) not a primary source of its power.

    As for Kilsin asking about stuff that has been decided already or not *shrug* don't we all know these Community Opinion posts aren't that serious?

    Kilsin usually shuts down posts when they become argumentative and are about something that is internally decided, so we might conclude that these community posts are about issues are not completely decided or are not expected to cause arguments? But either way, it's just for fun, no?


    This post was edited by disposalist at September 21, 2022 1:16 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 21, 2022 6:27 AM PDT

    IMO:

    If that's the intention, it just seems like a swing and a miss for the team.
    What would be the down side to having crafters participate, or even provide the same effects for augments, by tier?
    I can't think of any, personally.

    For example, disposalist, if it were your system to design and implement, would you intentionally exclude crafters from creating augments that were the same as dropped augments?

    • 2756 posts
    September 21, 2022 6:48 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    IMO:

    If that's the intention, it just seems like a swing and a miss for the team.
    What would be the down side to having crafters participate, or even provide the same effects for augments, by tier?
    I can't think of any, personally.

    For example, disposalist, if it were your system to design and implement, would you intentionally exclude crafters from creating augments that were the same as dropped augments?

    That isn't quite what I understood. I'm perhaps not explaining myself well.

    I think augments could be crafted, not just looted, and the gear that would use those augments would be both crafted and looted.

    The important part, as I understood it, was that augments would not be the primary source of power/effects/whatever for gear. That primary function would be part of the looted or crafted item.

    The augment - however it is created, obtained or applied - would provide just augmentation to the original crafted or looted gear.

    So, related to what you might have once suggested and what Nephele replied: I think Nephele was more saying the concept of crafted items being 'basic' and augments giving them their power wasn't the plan, not that there was no plan for augments at all.

    But I could be wrong. Maybe Neph will chip in here? ;)


    This post was edited by disposalist at September 21, 2022 6:51 AM PDT
    • 945 posts
    September 21, 2022 8:39 AM PDT

    If something like this were to be implemented, I would prefer the augments be accquired from bosses or special events.  This would cut back on the incessant hording of augments through the entire game (and likely cluttering of precious inventory space).  I think of games like Diablo, where the whole time you are playing and hording augments in hopes of finding the perfect one.  Perhaps (similar to diablo) higher end gear could support more augments.

    vjek said:

    What would be the down side to having crafters participate, or even provide the same effects for augments, by tier?

    I can't think of any, personally.



    I don't know if I would call it a "down side" as some would appreciate it, but I would call it incredibly cumbersome.  I think of leveling the Enchanting skill in WoW - which required hours and hours of crafting trivial enchantments just to later flood the markets with the same 1 or 2 good enchantments toward the end of the game.  Having player crafter augments would absolutely flood the game with augments, making the crafted ones relatively trivial IMO.   


    This post was edited by Darch at September 21, 2022 8:43 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 21, 2022 9:31 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    ... Having player crafter augments would absolutely flood the game with augments, making the crafted ones relatively trivial IMO.   

    IMO:

    How would that be any different than any other crafted items that players create?
    Or
    What makes augments special, versus weapons, armor, food, potions, consumables, or similar ?

    • 945 posts
    September 21, 2022 10:05 AM PDT

    @vjek - good point.  It could be similar to crafted consumables (potions/food etc), but I think it would be very different in regard to the crafted equipment.  But the thing with consumables is that they are consumed.  Also with consumables, not everyone will use them, but everyone will absolutely use augments (and likely the same couple of augments if player crafted).  If anyone could purchase an augment in town, they will likely become incredibly trivial.

    • 4 posts
    September 21, 2022 12:19 PM PDT

    My main issue with too many item slots (which augmentations to an extent are) is that with every single added slot.. items themselves become less and less influential as a whole.

    If overdone i fall into the why bother mindset.

    However  i did  like specificly in EQ1 that  (concerning AC augments)  you had to go back several expansions to fill every slot with worthy AC augments.


    This post was edited by Ryuku at September 21, 2022 12:20 PM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 21, 2022 12:52 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    @vjek - good point.  It could be similar to crafted consumables (potions/food etc), but I think it would be very different in regard to the crafted equipment.  But the thing with consumables is that they are consumed.  Also with consumables, not everyone will use them, but everyone will absolutely use augments (and likely the same couple of augments if player crafted).  If anyone could purchase an augment in town, they will likely become incredibly trivial.

    IMO:

    If consumption is an issue you can resolve it in at least two ways;  Augments can't be removed, only replaced/overwritten.  And/or they can be recharged, but the recharge 'cost' is reasonable enough to accomplish their design goal of removing resources out of the economy.  Similarly, they could be loop-life-limited, or charge/use limited in some other way such that they would eventually be consumed, and cannot be recharged.  Depends on the emergent behavior you (as a designer) would want to encourage.

    In short, augments could be consumables as well, or they could be permanent, or both, either, or some combination of all three/many. :)
    Giving each crafting profession a line of consumable augments would be a great way to make them all viable in the long term.
    Also, there's nothing inherently bad or wrong with NPC organization/faction vendors providing such consumable augments, if crafted versions are vastly superior.  Again, if you want to create the emergent player behavior of players participating in the crafting loop.

    • 612 posts
    September 21, 2022 6:14 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    Ah, so they're considering adding augments for drops, then, and not for crafting, GoofyWarriorGuy? 
    Or is that not what you're attempting to suggest?

    disposalist said:

    What I read from what Goofy compiled was that the intention is not that crafted items would be 'basic' with augments providing most of the power/interest.

    This is essentially it. Perhaps my wording wasn't very clear. All I was pointing out was that the quote you used of Nephele's was in direct response to your suggesting, in a thread about Crafting, that Crafters only make 'base' items and then have slots or something similar and then have All crafters contribute types of augments that go into those slots or something similar.

    Nephele's exact words were "that's not an approach that we will be taking with Pantheon's crafting."


    I then went on to say that this does not mean that they cannot add an Augment system outside of your idea about Crafting. But could this still include Crafters in some way? Yes possibly.

    I would think though that they would only do this if they wanted to gate certain types of Augments behind certain Professions. If they didn't want to gate augments to Professions, then why not make it something that everyone can do.

    Like Salvaging maybe? So maybe you are required to use 'Salvage' to break down a powerful item in order to gain the componant(s) needed to Enchant or Augment a different item. These could then be tradeable.

    Or... In the early days Aradune used to talk about 'sacrificing' items at an Altar in order to gain a boon. Perhaps this could be required. Sacrifice a powerful item to Enchant a different item.

    Although both of these would promote players from rolling on items they don't need just so they could 'Salvage' or 'Sacrifice' them. They could make it so you could only Salvage items you can actually use, but that still leaves players rolling on items they already have or have better. Not something I would enjoy as it fosters greediness.


    Maybe they could add a system where items need to be used in order to power them up before they can be Sacrificed in this way... so maybe you need to kill 1000 enemies with an item equipped before it is 'Sacrificable'. Getting 2000 or 5000 kills before Sacrificing could increase the Yield of componants rewarded?

    Componants would also need to be limited based on the power of the item you are using. So more powerful items would grant more powerful componants. You couldn't just use a Rusty sword for 1000 kills and then sacrifice it for a +10 str enchant componant. You'd be limited to a +1. But if you have a +10 str item you sacrifice it could grant componants for a +5 str enchant.

    Darch said:

    If something like this were to be implemented, I would prefer the augments be accquired from bosses or special events.  This would cut back on the incessant hording of augments through the entire game (and likely cluttering of precious inventory space).

    Maybe items used during specific Boss fights or even a combo of multiple Boss fights can grant specific compontants when Sacrificed. For example: Power up your breastplate up by wearing it to kill a specific Dragon before you sacrifice it and you are rewarded with a 'Heart of the Dragon' compontant used for a very special Enchant or Augment. Different gear types could even grant different special componants. So Sacrifice the BP you used to kill the Dragon gets you the 'Heart of the Dragon' but sacrifice a Weapon used during that kill and you get a 'Tooth of the Dragon'. Sacrifice a Helm used in the fight and you get 'Eye of the Dragon', etc... Each different Dragon compontant is used in Augmenting or Enchanting specific item types.


    Players who get upgraded gear when they loot Bosses then have a choice on if they sell their old gear for coin or Sacrifice them for the special componants that now open up because that item was used to kill the boss they have just slain.

    They would likely need to Reset any Kill counts or Special kills linked to an item if it is traded to other players. That way the origional owner will need to decide if he should sell the item as is and have it lose it's Sacrifice level, or Sacrifice it for the Enchant componant(s) and then sell those seperately. Players buying would then just focus on buying the componants they want rather than trying to buy items for sacrificing and then Gambling on if they get the componant they are specifically looking for.

    They may also need to have a way to prevent players from killing 1 boss and then sacrificing all their gear for mega componant haul. So if you kill the Dragon and then Sacrifice your sword, all your other gear you had on during the fight, reset and can no longer be sacrificed for the dragon Enchant componants. You'd have to kill the Dragon again in order to sacrifice another gear item.


    Just some rambling thoughts I had...


    This post was edited by GoofyWarriorGuy at September 21, 2022 6:20 PM PDT
    • 888 posts
    September 21, 2022 9:00 PM PDT

    Augments shouldn't be another static, boring pre-planned aspect of character builds, but rather something everchanging that adds variety and presents interesting options.  My suggestion...

    Augments should be low durability items that have a chance to be destroyed from regular wear and tear (and more likely to be destroyed from damage / dying). One would get destroyed,  on average, every five combat encounters or so.  There should be a large variety, frequentl drops, and be slottable by anyone.  They can't be removed except by destroying them and you can't carry more than a few unslotted without risking a magic feedback explosion.

    This would make augments a dynamic system where you will want to look at loot and will actually use it for something more than vendor trash. Characters will change subtlety over the course of a typical play session, further helping to keep combat interesting.  Characters aren't allowed to carry more then a few unlotted augments to preven it from being a loot for sale item and preventing characters from stockpiling the best ones.

    This would create a fun 'live off the land' mechanic.  Augments could vary based off mob type and location,  further adding variety. Death would cause at least a few augments to be destroyed,  adding a bit to the death penalty.  

     

    • 1273 posts
    September 22, 2022 12:07 PM PDT

    I don't think there is much in a world that should be reserved for max level (or maybe nothing!).  It might or might be "efficient" to use resources to enhance items that you will just end up replacing eventually, but it sure can add to the FUN :)

    • 2756 posts
    September 23, 2022 2:17 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    ...Just some rambling thoughts I had...

    Some great ideas there.

    I love the concepts of sacrificing magic items to get augments (or components *for* augments).

    That in combination with making augments something that may have limited life would be a good, not-overpowered mechanic and an excellent item sink for the economy.

    • 2138 posts
    September 23, 2022 8:01 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    vjek said:

    disposalist said:

    [...]


    I then went on to say that this does not mean that they cannot add an Augment system outside of your idea about Crafting. But could this still include Crafters in some way? Yes possibly.

    I would think though that they would only do this if they wanted to gate certain types of Augments behind certain Professions. If they didn't want to gate augments to Professions, then why not make it something that everyone can do.

    Like Salvaging maybe? So maybe you are required to use 'Salvage' to break down a powerful item in order to gain the componant(s) needed to Enchant or Augment a different item. These could then be tradeable.

    Or... In the early days Aradune used to talk about 'sacrificing' items at an Altar in order to gain a boon. Perhaps this could be required. Sacrifice a powerful item to Enchant a different item.

    Although both of these would promote players from rolling on items they don't need just so they could 'Salvage' or 'Sacrifice' them. They could make it so you could only Salvage items you can actually use, but that still leaves players rolling on items they already have or have better. Not something I would enjoy as it fosters greediness.


    [...]

    Hold up. To your point I actually think the sacrifice/salvage idea would establish an unwritten social baseline behavior "rule" of greed to roll in order to be able to sacrifice for a collectively understood personal benefit and for which the playing field is level for all. This is not a bad thing because it would also allow nuance in an agreed social dynamic to comminicate what levels of "NBG" means in a given group. This would also allow for personal judgment of newly met players depending on how they react to how loot will be handled in a given group, wether they be an NBG purist or not. Interestingly, I can see those on this same high-horse also banding together for the sole purpose of needing sacrifice items, especially if they are consumable. And IF they are consumable as a sacrificed item - that is once the item is sacrificed, the sacrificed product is consumable-this may also solve barren zone issues as people will be drawn back to get those items. Control will be spawn rates- high or low depending on zone population, Random spawn rate on nameds so level-appropriates have a chance at choice drops and prevent  c*** blocking camps per se, and Goldilocks level player judgment regarding zone population for their needs/wants/goals.

    • 220 posts
    September 25, 2022 4:26 PM PDT

    im against it.

    that being said i think if emplemented later on during the life of the game its FINE but rushing out all these QoL  or make your character strong quick will make the game become bored fast and new mmo generateration attentation span doesnt last long enough to even care about it. They'll complain then leave.