Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Opinion - Thoughts on augmenting weapons and armor?

    • 9115 posts
    September 15, 2022 3:48 AM PDT

    Are you for or against it? Should it be reserved for max level only or all levels? Let us know where you stand. #MMORPG #indiegames

    • 63 posts
    September 15, 2022 4:27 AM PDT

    I dont mind weapon / armour augmentation as a rare (maybe even single) occurance per item.

    I dont like augmentation on an armour / weapon when it can be done repeatedly and you end up praying to some RNG god that it actually turns out to be useful.

    Oh and if you can avoid having the item undergoing augmentation randomly exploding forcing you to start all over again that would be good.

    I have no preference to tying it to a specific level range, however if there is the ability to augment lower level gear then make sure there is a reason to actually make it.  Low level equipment is replaced pretty quickly so whatever benefit there is to augmentation it is often ignored as it is thrown away for an upgrde just a few levels later.


    This post was edited by DuxDux at September 15, 2022 4:29 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    September 15, 2022 7:10 AM PDT

    EDIT: Just realised I totally assumed 'augmentation' meant 'cosmetic augmentation' and it probably actually meant stats and effects and the like!
    The answer is similar, though. Yes. Crafting-based, for all levels, but let's keep it subtle.

    I've removed the rest of my post as it was confusing to the topic lol.


    This post was edited by disposalist at September 15, 2022 7:58 AM PDT
    • 2419 posts
    September 15, 2022 7:27 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Are you for or against it? Should it be reserved for max level only or all levels? Let us know where you stand. #MMORPG #indiegames

    If you are thinking a system similar to what we had in EQ1 during the LDoN expansion then yes, I do like it and that it should be available throughout the levels, much as it was for LDoN.  The higher your level, the better/higher quality augments become available for purchase/loot/quest. 

    That said, introducing such things would require much more work in terms of balancing to ensure you dont end up with OP combinations which no developer ever envisioned or anticipated.

    disposalist said:The answer is similar, though. Yes. Crafting-based, for all levels, but let's keep it subtle.

    I would like to see crafted and quested in addition to any that might be purchased.  I also agree that subtle is the best approach but it still must be something that is at least noticeable.  Nothing kills an introduced mechanic than one determined to have no noticeable effect compared to the time/effort put into obtaining it.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at September 15, 2022 10:11 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    September 15, 2022 7:45 AM PDT

    I prefer focusing on weapon and armour drops and rewards and not having a lot of the game revolve around slots in the gear and items (by whatever name) that can be used to go in those slots.

    In theory that isn't necessarily a bad system but it makes balancing gear far harder and, much worse indeed, in practice tends to lead to endless grinding and death battles with RNG in addition to the grinding and RNG associated with the gear itself.

    I would far prefer to grind endlessly for a sunblade +2 than for an augment.

    Short answer - I am against it.

    • 392 posts
    September 15, 2022 8:31 AM PDT

    I've never been a fan of it, I'll put effort into it the first time but as I replace gear then just skip over it.

    • 768 posts
    September 15, 2022 10:18 AM PDT

    Augmentation could be used to get a piece of gear from 70% to 100% functional.  This doesn't mean it broke, but rather that one obtained it in a supoptimal state. For example, if you find a rusty sword, you could augment it with a wetstone gem (or get it sharpened by a crafter). 

    The augmentations could be fixated so that they cannot be removed after placement. 

    In my time playing Diablo (versions) it was a fun way to keep your gear for longer timeperiods or really think about swapping with something that cannot be augmented but has primarily better stats.  I really enjoyed that part as it gave me more playstyle/character to my weapon. But that was in a single player game with no real economy.

    Spell effects even minor ones could be considered aswel if you don't want to touch on that stats of gear in this augmenting way.

    When you consider going beyond 100%, it becomes very slippery. One question comes to mind straight away; If boosting things beyond 100% is a thing in your game, isn't there something in your design that might be causing things to spiral out of control? Adjust the design so your game doesn't demand more than 100% from your gear. Perhaps if you want to manifest things beyond 100% , there are more options in class design, spells or combat arts.  But again, why is 100% not enough? Shouldn't it be? What do you add with 101%? 110%? is it more fun now? More challenging? More engaging? I don't know how many finals you passed with 100/100 but it felt really great if I had one at all. 100% isn't the standard, 75% might be. (derailing a  bit, but it's all a matter of perspective really) Most people in the world do not live by a 100/100 standard and this is the same in a game. Most don't reach 100% efficiency while playing, so anything beyond 75 up to 99 is already great. Let 100 be the dream come true for those that are that clever, driven, motivated and skilled to reach that point. 

    If you want gear to remain valuable past certain levels, let crafters take the gear apart, remove one low tier resources from it and replace it with a higher tier. The weapon remains the same, it just got an allround boost or basic boost to it. Which at this point allows the piece of gear to perform better than in it's previous state. It has shed it's younger shell as it were. The player can keep the same appearance, style, character.

    I like the idea of augmenting a weapon to have a bonus against a certain mob or in certain environmental condition. It doesn't really make the item a gamechanger, but it has specific value added to it. versatility vs allround boost? 


    This post was edited by Barin999 at September 15, 2022 10:23 AM PDT
    • 144 posts
    September 15, 2022 11:36 AM PDT

    Man, this is a tricky topic. I do agree with disposalist that it should be for all levels. However, I think if the augments are too subtle then they'll just be glossed over aside from the very toughest content where people want as much of an edge as possible. If it's too impactful than they'll be deemed necessary a necessary part of gearing at all levels (which isn't a terrible design if done correctly)

    I know games like Star Wars the Old Republic (where stats are augmented) and Project Gorgon (where class skills are augmented) have made augments on gear be integral to building your character in a unique way. This makes gearing way more horizontal, which adds longevity to gear drops (going back to the discussion of lower level raid content) while also creating a ton of flexibility with builds that don't rely on very specific drops. There are pros and cons to shifting the focus from the gear to the augments, although we can likely all agree that it'll add to the timesink cost of the game.

    When I talk about skill augments, these could be things like "holy damage increased by 5%", "damage taken reduced by 5%", or "Nature's Grasp now does earth damage instead of nature". I know Final Fantasty XI implemented this really well without using augments by adding these type of mods directly on gear drops. It made specific items super renown, which I know is a goal of VR for the gear in their world as well.

    Then there are games like Final Fantasty XIV where augments are very optional and hardly make a difference. People use them when trying to clear the toughest content, but they're arguably not even necessary for that once people start gearing up. In games like these, I feel like it's a waste that doesn't add any value. In these situations, I would rather not see augments since they feel like an afterthought.

    Pantheon could take a third route and have augments used for acclimation. It could be exclusively used for this where you swap augments on gear depending on where you're going as opposed to carrying several gear sets. Or, each piece of gear could have dedicated acclimation slots and dedicated stat/skill slots or a mix of either depending on the quality of the gear. 

    I personally, don't mind if VR includes an augment system if it's already in the works. Just don't make it something that feels like fluff. 

    • 363 posts
    September 15, 2022 12:18 PM PDT

    I'm pretty much of the same mind set as Vandraad on this one, but I also think this would make a better post-launch/xpac feature.

    • 888 posts
    September 15, 2022 1:04 PM PDT

    I want a large variety of small, lateral augments that are only beneficial under specific circumstances. No +5 resistance vs damage, but yes to resist fire / fall damage / charm / etc.

    Each additional augment should require progressively more gold / loot to craft so those who want to fully augment (the richest characters) are most using this money sync mechanic. 

    I also want cosmetic augmentation.  Color, illumination, and particle effects could all be great options.

    • 252 posts
    September 15, 2022 2:32 PM PDT

    I'm not a huge fan, but if it is going to exist I like some of the ideas in this thread. I don't think that augments should be items you snap onto your gear and they have straight stat increases. I like the ideas where an augment does one very specific thing. It probably isn't necessary to have it but can make a noticable difference in certain circumstances.  Example: Maybe an augment for your boots gives you small bonus to climbing. 

    I like the idea of reforging weapons and armor to improve their stats. This would be something crafters could do. The stat increases would be due to utilizing better materials or techniquest to reforge it.

    • 326 posts
    September 15, 2022 3:00 PM PDT

     

    Adding resists, stats, abilities(or ability enhancements), faction buffs, animal taming perks, glamours, and color to armor. That sounds like a good start for a set of expansion features.

    • 125 posts
    September 15, 2022 3:16 PM PDT

    If it is something akin to the enchanting profession in WoW then I am for it. Would definitely suggest tieing it to crafting and it can be a neat way to add cosmetic glows to weapons etc 

    • 7 posts
    September 15, 2022 3:35 PM PDT

    I need just a little clarification on augmentation.When we talk augmentation I usually think of a permanent change that is not easy to change. I saw in one video with cohh that a mechanic was added to add poison to his dagger to give it extra stats. Is that considered augmentation in this thread?

    • 1281 posts
    September 15, 2022 3:51 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Are you for or against it? Should it be reserved for max level only or all levels? Let us know where you stand. #MMORPG #indiegames

    My thoughs....  "Low-quality" augmentation should be available via loot.  Like a scroll you read to give "weak" augmention.  However, the crafting system should have an extensive available set of augmentations.  Some augmentations should also stack.

    • 3 posts
    September 15, 2022 5:53 PM PDT
    I like the idea of rare items that can be used to augment either existing items or a crafting recipe. A rare drop from a tough enemy that can be added to an item to imbue attributes inherent to what was defeated. I think easy augmentation will drive the focus too much towards min/maxing, but a rare drop that adds either a cosmetic flare or ability to a weapon or armor piece could be interesting.
    • 144 posts
    September 15, 2022 6:45 PM PDT

    Eledar said:

    I need just a little clarification on augmentation.When we talk augmentation I usually think of a permanent change that is not easy to change. I saw in one video with cohh that a mechanic was added to add poison to his dagger to give it extra stats. Is that considered augmentation in this thread?

    I don't believe that would count as augmentation in my book, although that is technically what it is. Lots of MMO's use the poison system, and they typically wear off after a certain amount of time. These augments would become a part of the gear until removed. 

    I'm also against cosmetic augments. That would go into the fluff section for me, while also going against VR's plan of making certain hard to get gear be visually recognizable. 

     

    • 7 posts
    September 15, 2022 7:54 PM PDT

    I agree about being against cosmetic. I will say this about augmentation and my personal experience. I have played WoW and EverQuest over the years. From what I recall over all that time I have only augmented one thing that would be permanent. The reason is because once I have finally gotten a rare item that I feel I will use forever I did not want to take the chance of making a change that I will regret later. The thought process for possible regret is that this is an ever changing world.

    What happens if you make the change and then the next day you wind up finding a jewel under a random loose floorboard that would be even better but now is useless non tradeable junk? I think if it is implemented it should be for only high level, there should be a chance for it to fail with a penalty, and it should be permanent. As far as things such as poison and other things that can be time durations and used on equipment\armor should be able to be used by all levels as long as they have enough mastery over that skill (if there is one). These are just my thoughts so please let me know yours also.

    ~~Eledar~~

    • 2752 posts
    September 15, 2022 8:03 PM PDT

    I strongly dislike it. I hate what it does to itemization and gear hunting etc. It dramatically cuts down on gear progression when one can carefully adjust their stats to be exactly what they want with little if any sacrifices/compromises. I feel it leads to far fewer used "sets" of equipment as the best few are just slightly adjusted for each class to reach stat goals vs having to collect all kinds of different items to fulfill horizontal progression.

    Getting endless enchants/gems/augments/materia just sucks compared to having distinct items that one must choose between. Also statflation.

     

    And worst of all is having new gear/upgrades drop but having all of that excitement deflated because that equipment isn't better than what you have until you augment it in whatever way. So it sits in your bag and represents more work needing to be done be it farming mats or gold or both. Really not a fan.

    • 810 posts
    September 15, 2022 11:32 PM PDT
    Augments that add non combat utility are fun. Giving players real choices on gameplay.

    Combat augments are not fun in any way other than number go up.
    • 2138 posts
    September 17, 2022 7:54 AM PDT

    If the premise is that adding an augmentation will improve or make a weapon better, This implies to me that the assumption is that weapon or armor degredation is already built in and will happen quickly as a player levels. So rather than a sword or item carrying its usefullness through a satisfying period of time to then be replaced with another hard earned sword with better things to it, the same old sword can be augmented sooner or continually improved with the augmentations being discarded or swapped. This also assumes the augmentations are like modular snap-on things. 

    Personally I would rather the disparity in individual items and those items held for long term with the constraint of storage space in the back of mind as this also contributes to a natural- emergent if you will- conceptualization of need before greed mentality. You have a robe, another robe dropped, its lslightly different than yours, oyu have no bage space per se, but it does look different, is the style option worth the use of storage space? no. Would you like to try it on? of course, and you do and see and give it back and done and done. Other gets the robe because they "need" it as yours is not better but not necessary to swap or its rolled off because there are no other robe wearers. Unfortunately - and this would be the gamesmanship of the class- warriors who are weapon dependent would need an almost chess-like mentality to weigh weapon choices against their stored arsenal so constrained by personal and stored space. The better warrior being the one making the best choices for their skill set and different warriors with different skill sets and different weapons could each perform expertly without having the same -stuff- thereby squelching but not thwarting min-maxers.

    I'm afraid augments might get confused with glyphs and a QoL demand down the road may be to have Augments crafted, and to have augments crafted with glyphs on them- permanently.

    What do you do with all the old augmentations? IF they are of the snap-on variety. Level 50 with +5 cold aug- um couldn;t give it away to a mid-level. Merchant fodder? ok. at the start I dont have to think about it, its an open slot, ill just fill it. But later...can get confusing because of Min-max.

    • 122 posts
    September 18, 2022 8:43 AM PDT

    Personally, I love being able to augment armor and weapons right from the beginning. I do not think it should just be stat gems like +1 str; it should add other things like when an enemy appears, the stone glows brighter, or like for a rogue to have better sneak ability. I am sure all kinds of things can be taken from DnD or just imagination to make this truly special.

     

    I think this would immediately make jewel crafting more useful instead of just making a jeweled hilt for a blacksmith.

     

    I would like to see a different number of jewels be able to go on different grades of weapons and armor. as well.

     

    Im sure most people would use stat gems but imagine different fighting techniques that could come from gems with odd powers on them.... could be fun

    • 1921 posts
    September 20, 2022 8:08 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Are you for or against it? Should it be reserved for max level only or all levels? Let us know where you stand. #MMORPG #indiegames

    IMO:

    From (Dec 30, 2020):

    https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12588/crafting-fundamentals/view/post_id/244620

    Nephele said:
    " I understand your position on after-market item modifications but that's not an approach that we will be taking with Pantheon's crafting. " [ underline added by me ]

    So, unless that position has changed, not really much to say or discuss, from where I sit.

    Are you saying, Kilsin, that the Pantheon team and/or Nephele have done an about-face and are now considering 'after-market item modifications' for implementation, as of Sep 20, 2022 ?
    If so, I have lots to offer about such a system.. :)

    • 612 posts
    September 20, 2022 5:08 PM PDT

    Vjek said:

    Are you saying, Kilsin, that the Pantheon team and/or Nephele have done an about-face and are now considering 'after-market item modifications' for implementation, as of Sep 20, 2022 ?

    Most of the 'Community Opinions' that Kilsin posts are not things they have planned for Pantheon, but are rather just subjects that often get debated and as such Kilsin is just using these subjects to stimulate conversation on the forums.

     

    Although I would point out that the Nephele quote you used said "... that's not an approach that we will be taking with Pantheon's crafting." (I changed the underline).

    You will remember that what Nephele was responding too was your suggestion that all Crafted items be 'basic' and then include 'slots' which allowed the end user of said item to pick which stats to Augment into these basic items. You then suggested that each Crafting profession also create these Augments seperately which players would then buy to put into the sockets of these 'Basic' items.

    Nephele was responding to your comments and saying that this was not planned for the Pantheon crafting system. This does not prevent them from allowing an Augmentation system entirely, but rather just saying that it will not be part of Crafting.

    Joppa did say in the Aug 7, 2018 stream (source) that they were 'considering' some systems such as Enchanting or Slotted items that would add things to items, but that if they had such a system it would make such augmented items untradeable and bind those items to you. It should be noted that Joppa said "Potentially... potentially... this is very potential so don't take this as set in stone." and as such this was not something they have as actual plans but rather just some loose discussions on the subject just in case they wanted to add such a system at some point.


    This post was edited by GoofyWarriorGuy at September 21, 2022 4:26 PM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 20, 2022 7:09 PM PDT

    IMO:

    Ah, so they're considering adding augments for drops, then, and not for crafting, GoofyWarriorGuy? 
    Or is that not what you're attempting to suggest?