In the discord I brought up the recent lore to someone about the elven factions, one of whom was chased by another, who became the Ashen elves after carrying the seed given to them by their leader. Chased again, a new tree brought forth the Ember elves. The faction of elves known as Tohrmentirii who were the aggressors to the Ashen elves were the third known faction to me. Iksar dissented, taking me by surprise and stated that Lucent elves were in fact the third faction, not Torhmentirii. Not only that, but through old interviews and Q&As (https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8045/ashen-or-ember , https://web.archive.org/web/20151116011251/http://www.pantheonmmo.com/races/elves/) had admittedly dated evidence to support the claim.
The questions that arose are kind of an enigma: Are there three or four factions of elves? If three (to include Torhmentirii and disclude Lucent) can we get confirmation whether or not Torhmentirii are considered to be born Lucent elves? If three (to include Lucent and disclude Torhmentirii) can we get a revision about Torhmentirii to clarify that they are in fact not elves instead of elves trying to go through a transformation process to become Revenants? If there are four factions, can we get a revision of the currently posted lore? Is Lucent a blanket term that encompasses all elves or is it its own group separate from the others?
As I told Iksar, I'm fine being wrong, I would just like confirmation to ease my mind and if it's a currently evolving story, that's enough of an answer too.
I don't know if there is more lore elsewhere that I have forgotten about but from the page of it you linked, the Tohr'mentirii never left their homeworld of S'iolaen. They twice overran the rest of the elves, who took the name "the Ashen" because of the tragedies that had befallen them. That all happened back on S'iolaen. But there is no mention of the Tohr'mentirii in this lore after the elves arrived at Terminus.
The elves who left S'iolaen and came to Terminus, were all Ashen elves. They had lived beside a great tree they called Lumos, and brought a seed from it. They planted that seed in their home in the Roan Mountains, and the tree that grew they called Lucent, the Third Light. From then on, all of the elves on Terminus can be called Lucent elves, since they all lived under (and/or in?) the Lucent tree.
Then along came the Deicide War. The Revenant burned the elves' tree, the third time in history their great tree had been burned. Fortunately that didn't kill it. When the war was over and the elves went back to check on their Lucent tree, they found it still alive. At that time, some elves believed that the Deicide War had fulfilled a prophecy from their god Aellos for a "Third Inferno" for the elves. They were happy to stay in their homeland, and prosper there. But a group of elves did not believe that the Deicide war was the fulfillment of the prophecy. They felt compelled to start exploring the world around them, in hopes of finding whatever evil was coming before it found them. They became the Ember elves.
So all elves are Lucent, since they all still are born under the Lucent Tree. Some follow the Ashen path, some follow the Ember path. While one can argue semantics all day, IMO there are only two factions of elves on Terminus, Ashen & Ember.
Or perhaps Therek or even JN will come along and explain that I've got it all wrong LoL.
First thank you for your response!
I can provide responses to some of the things you mentioned.
In the first link (specifically this post here https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8045/ashen-or-ember/view/post_id/153032), JN himself said "To Malsirian, and anyone else wondering about this, what Iksar said is very close to the bullseye. All Elves are born Lucent then may become Ashen, Ember or remain Lucent. Ember and Ashen are powerful branches within the larger Elven tree, yet not trees of their own."
The problem with this is that three was the number mentioned, and that Torhmentirii were also described as elves who have forsaken their kind and seek transformation, and the Lore Glossary pinned to the top states "Tohr'mentirii - a once subset of elves on their previous homeworld S'iolaen that unified with the demonic Beasts of Tohr and marched upon their brothers without mercy." The question becomes whether or not they're elves, and if so, is three the number describing simply the ones in Terminus as Justin says here (https://web.archive.org/web/20190616064422/http://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2018_february_elves_roundtable/) when he brings up the Lucent, is it describing the North, South and East factions who lived in S'iolaen, or did they mean four?
justdrop said: Torhmentirii were also described as elves who have forsaken their kind and seek transformation,
The lore page said they unified "with the demonic Beasts of Tohr". I didn't see anything to suggest they are STILL seeking any kind of transformation. Did you read something else that I haven't seen?
You also quoted this line from the Sepher S'iolaen:
"the Lore Glossary pinned to the top states "Tohr'mentirii - a once subset of elves on their previous homeworld S'iolaen that unified with the demonic Beasts of Tohr and marched upon their brothers without mercy."
But you left out the end last sentence of that record, which pretty much answers your question. It says "marched upon their brothers without mercy. Thus they are now the Tohr'mentirii, a Severed Host, cut off from Elvenhood for all of time."
That sounds pretty definitive to me.
In the Feb 2018 newsletter newsletter JN says "The Elves are not two branches, but three. The third and most numerous is the Lucent Elf, and they run a pretty wide range in the space between the Ashen and Ember.
That also sounds definitive to me who the three branches are.
Finally, my own experience of following Pantheon for 8 years now, I've only heard about Lucent, Ember, Ashen. These lore pages about their history are the only mentions I've ever heard about the Tohr'mentirii.
Anything could get changed, we're a long way from release. But as it stands now, there's no reason to expect the Tohr'mentirii to show up on Terminus.
This was a fun dive into lore. You never really know something until you try to explain it to someone else, so thanks for the question :)
And welcome to the forums, (since I don't remember seeing any of your posts before now)
The lore page said they unified "with the demonic Beasts of Tohr". I didn't see anything to suggest they are STILL seeking any kind of transformation. Did you read something else that I haven't seen?
https://pantheonriseofthefallen.fandom.com/wiki/The_Murk
The Tohrn are a cult of Elves that have been twisted by the call of Tohrdaenyyr, the god called “The Endless Inferno”. Forsaking every shred of Faerthalean heritage, Tohrn settle in the stomach of the Murk and begin a process of subversion that will strip away their former identity, even eating through their Elvenhood.
By this piece they're still born elves and require conversion to remove it. Also, these are in Kingsreach ;) Weird that they'd take on the same nomenclature as the ones from the previous world.. :) This would be a fourth faction of elf in Terminus.
But you left out the end last sentence of that record, which pretty much answers your question. It says "marched upon their brothers without mercy. Thus they are now the Tohr'mentirii, a Severed Host, cut off from Elvenhood for all of time."That sounds pretty definitive to me.
Again, becoming Torh'mentirii as becoming Torhn is a conversion and not a birth. They were twisted by the unnatural thoughts of their brethren to the west withholding supplies from them during the blight, causing them to side with the creatures they swore to protect against. Being cut off doesn't mean they weren't elven, it means they can no longer claim it.
In the Feb 2018 newsletter newsletter JN says "The Elves are not two branches, but three. The third and most numerous is the Lucent Elf, and they run a pretty wide range in the space between the Ashen and Ember.
That also sounds definitive to me who the three branches are.
I sourced that specifically because you said previously:
While one can argue semantics all day, IMO there are only two factions of elves on Terminus, Ashen & Ember.
As you previously noted, Lucent is the name of the third tree as well as elves, and without these interviews with JN and Josh, and the forum comments, the knowledge of Lucent elves is all but removed from the current lore sections (https://pantheonriseofthefallen.fandom.com/wiki/Elf#Elven_outlook_and_differences mentions the potential for 5 or 6 branches but https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/races/ has elves listed as two branches! https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/races/elves/ lists two veins! Zero mention of Lucent elves! Zero mention of the Torhn cultists!) which makes it worth asking: are Lucent elves still canonically the third type of elf on Terminus? The word Lucent is now being used as ancestral per their passive. Even the glossary only mentions Lucent as a tree and not a branch. Beyond that, are Torh canonically a fourth type until conversion? Perhaps the most mysterious of all (and one I'm not expecting an answer for for a long time, if at all): what happened to the southern Archestral Elves of S'iolean?
Anything could get changed, we're a long way from release. But as it stands now, there's no reason to expect the Tohr'mentirii to show up on Terminus.
Agreed, anything regarding such is speculation and is actually one of the points of contention between Ember and Ashen elves! Something tells me it's not the last we've seen of them though.. :)
This was a fun dive into lore. You never really know something until you try to explain it to someone else, so thanks for the question :)
And welcome to the forums, (since I don't remember seeing any of your posts before now)
Agreed, I love understanding these worlds people create. Sometimes the discrepancies between accounts are intentional due to character biases, sometimes it's a matter of being handled by different authors, and sometimes it's just an oopsie. Getting to the bottom of it is very fun! And thanks, I avoid them for the most part but I get way too curious when it comes to the story.
justdrop said: https://pantheonriseofthefallen.fandom.com/wiki/The_MurkBy this piece they're still born elves and require conversion to remove it.
Also, these are in Kingsreach ;) Weird that they'd take on the same nomenclature as the ones from the previous world.. :)
This would be a fourth faction of elf in Terminus.
Good job, I don't remember that Lore page at all. Three responses:
A caterpillar turns into a butterfly. A biologist could argue that they are fundamentally the same thing. A philosopher could disagree. They are both correct.
All the Lore of Pantheon was written by one talented writer. Finding a 2nd group of beings with a very similar name, that has similar qualities and behaviors but in a new place and storyline, may just mean a good name was slightly changed and re-used. OR it might imply a deeper connection. Or it may mean he hasn't yet decided which. Resist assumptions.
You, me and JN have used 'Realm', 'branch', 'faction' and 'cult' at various times to refer to different groups of elves. Often using them in different places to refer to the same group. Those words may be synonyms but they don't mean the exact same thing all the time. That quote says "The Tohrn are a cult of Elves". You just called them a fourth "faction". Resist assumptions. A 'faction' is as a sub-group within a larger group, that is defined by a particular belief that differs from the larger group.
To paraphrase an old cliche, "Semantics is a harsh mistress" :)
Again, becoming Torh'mentirii as becoming Torhn is a conversion and not a birth... Being cut off doesn't mean they weren't elven, it means they can no longer claim it.
So is the butterfly really a caterpillar or not?
I said "there are only two factions of elves on Terminus, Ashen & Ember". JN says "The Elves are not two branches, but three."
No confict here :)
As you previously noted, Lucent is the name of the third tree as well as elves, and without these interviews with JN and Josh, and the forum comments, the knowledge of Lucent elves is all but removed from the current lore sections
There was a major revision of the website a few years ago, and much was removed, including most of the Lore. VR told us at the time that stuff was removed for clarity and consistency and that it did not mean that everything removed was no longer part of the game. They also have said that the lore will make its way back to the website (and that we'll get new forums) eventually, it's just not a high priority yet.
(https://pantheonriseofthefallen.fandom.com/wiki/Elf#Elven_outlook_and_differences mentions the potential for 5 or 6 branches but https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/races/ has elves listed as two branches! https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/races/elves/ lists two veins! Zero mention of Lucent elves! Zero mention of the Torhn cultists!)
What is written on the current race pages is intended primarily as PR to appeal to visitors newly interested in Pantheon. The functional reality is that there are only two types of elf that a player can play. A long tale of lore here, about numerous branches & factions & realms (oh my!) would only serve to confuse potential subscribers. That's what lore is for :)
which makes it worth asking: are Lucent elves still canonically the third type of elf on Terminus? ... Beyond that, are Torh canonically a fourth type until conversion?
Type? What exactly do you mean by type? Do I have to say the 'S' word again :)
Perhaps the most mysterious of all (and one I'm not expecting an answer for for a long time, if at all): what happened to the southern Archestral Elves of S'iolean?
Oh boy! Lets just figure out the elves we've got, before we invite any more to the party LoL.
Always remember that the Lore of the races is Myth, sometimes even to them. Myth contains truths. But if you look for scientific taxonomy inside of myths, you will be forever frustrated.
Jothany said:
You, me and JN have used 'Realm', 'branch', 'faction' and 'cult' at various times to refer to different groups of elves. Often using them in different places to refer to the same group. Those words may be synonyms but they don't mean the exact same thing all the time. That quote says "The Tohrn are a cult of Elves". You just called them a fourth "faction". Resist assumptions. A 'faction' is as a sub-group within a larger group, that is defined by a particular belief that differs from the larger group.
To paraphrase an old cliche, "Semantics is a harsh mistress" :)
I mean, they're elves. They're definitely not typical of Ashen or Ember behaviorally and they're turning into something else altogether. It's possible they're a subset of Lucent, hence me asking the question.
There was a major revision of the website a few years ago, and much was removed, including most of the Lore. VR told us at the time that stuff was removed for clarity and consistency and that it did not mean that everything removed was no longer part of the game. They also have said that the lore will make its way back to the website (and that we'll get new forums) eventually, it's just not a high priority yet.What is written on the current race pages is intended primarily as PR to appeal to visitors newly interested in Pantheon. The functional reality is that there are only two types of elf that a player can play. A long tale of lore here, about numerous branches & factions & realms (oh my!) would only serve to confuse potential subscribers. That's what lore is for :)
Fair enough, that's where the disconnect has been for me.
which makes it worth asking: are Lucent elves still canonically the third type of elf on Terminus? ... Beyond that, are Torh canonically a fourth type until conversion?Type? What exactly do you mean by type? Do I have to say the 'S' word again :)
To be very clear, I'm not beholden to your beliefs. The purpose of this was to gain clarity about the situation, and while I appreciate new perspectives, I do not have to agree with them.
Oh boy! Lets just figure out the elves we've got, before we invite any more to the party LoL.
Always remember that the Lore of the races is Myth, sometimes even to them. Myth contains truths. But if you look for scientific taxonomy inside of myths, you will be forever frustrated.
The fun for me is in the study :)
justdrop said:I mean, they're elves. They're definitely not typical of Ashen or Ember behaviorally and they're turning into something else altogether. It's possible they're a subset of Lucent, hence me asking the question.
As far as we know, all elves on Terminus are a subset of Lucent. Most certainly all PC elves, since that's where they start.
To be very clear, I'm not beholden to your beliefs. The purpose of this was to gain clarity about the situation, and while I appreciate new perspectives, I do not have to agree with them.
I don't expect you to.When I said "what type ....., do I have to say the S word again" I was just trying to say I thought the answer was one of semantics in a humorously different way, instead of repeating the same thing for a third time. I'm sorry if it came off differently than I intended.
Your question "what happened to the southern Archestral Elves of S'iolean?" is a good one to have ready the next time JN is in one of the Dev streams and ask it in chat.
This may have gone too deep down the rabbit hole. A few things to consider:
All of the lore to date has not been told by an omniscient narrator, but by people living out their lives on Terminus. So, we need to get used to different storytellers in the world having differing perspectives. I think it is intentional as JN has even made slight nods to there being gaps or misunderstandings by Keepers, storytellers, etc.
Second, there are two different ways that "types of elves" can be, and believe, have been interpreted. One is from a gameplay perspective. elves can be paladins but not dire lords. Elves can be wizards and summoners but not necromancers. It has been stated that currently, you can choose to be aligned with Ashen or Ember, but until you choose, you are just considered Lucent, which all elves are who continue following their ancestral ways.
The other way elves are spoken of from factions is politically. It may be safe to say that there is no current way to have an elf that IS a true follower of Tohrdaenyyr, or Tohrn. As factions is how most of the lore refers to them, the Tohr'mentirii, are just the "Guardian North" elves who forsook their bonds to the other states in their first government on Terminus, and fought with the enemy against the West and South. Since this government no longer exists, there can be no more Tohr'mentirii. Coincidentally, Archestral elves are also a political faction of elves who most likely dwelled down in Fae Hollow or Old Wood in the south part of Faerthale. They were the "Southern" branch. Now, all elves are unified under one Council at the base of the Roan Mountains.
So, how many factions are there now? The Tohrn are as elvish as Revenant are Ginto, which is to say not at all. In the political structure of elves, there are currently three factions. Ashen elves which all elves are to some degree by default. Some choose to follow the Ember ways, which vie politically for control in the Council of the Nine against the Ashen. Then, there is another group who are not allowed on the Council, yet... These are the Splinterfolk. Splinterfolk operate outside the traditions of Elves. This is made abundantly clear in the story of Thaolyn Greyborne. She is born into an Ashen household and longs to fight as an Ember, but leans toward the darker arts. She wants to be a rogue. Rogues are taboo among Elven culture. Any who practice the arts of a rogue are excommunicated from modern Elven culture. They are elves in ever sense, but not accepted among upstanding elves. So, Splinterfolk have their own outposts where they can live and trade without being beholden to their brothers. This becomes interesting because Thaolyn Greyborne left her pursuit of revenge for her father's death and rejoined the ranks of the Elves as a Warrior protecting the White Gate, the Northern Gate! She has connection to the Splinterfolk as she was one for a time in her life. Her influence in-game may bring about a change in leadership and acceptance of Splinterfolk over time in expanions, even her making it to the Council where many of her ancestors have taken their places as well.
Three factions of elves on the political scene. Three factions of elves in gameplay. Both are different lists. Hopefully my 2 cents muddied up the waters a bit.
Thanks Benonai, I was really hoping someone more knowledgeable than I would jump in here.
2 things you said are confusing to me.
Tohr'mentirii, are just the "Guardian North" elves who forsook their bonds to the other states in their first government on Terminus, and fought with the enemy against the West and South....Coincidentally, Archestral elves are also a political faction of elves who most likely dwelled down in Fae Hollow or Old Wood in the south part of Faerthale. They were the "Southern" branch.
I thought the Guardian North joined the Tohr'mentirii against the West & Archestral South while back on S'iolaen, but you placed those events on Terminus? In the same vein, is there lore about the Archestral elves from S'iolaen settling in the south of Faerhtale somewere?
Three factions of elves on the political scene. Three factions of elves in gameplay. Both are different lists.
Three political factions of elf makes sense, I think we might easily find even more factions once we start exploring Terminus for real. But in reference to gameplay, I know of nothing to suggest that a player can choose to NOT be an Ashen or Ember and just remain Lucent while playing the game. Though perhaps you just mean various NPC elves are not A. or E. ? [Not to encourage you to break the NDA :) ]
Thanks
Jothany said:Thanks Benonai, I was really hoping someone more knowledgeable than I would jump in here.
2 things you said are confusing to me.
I thought the Guardian North joined the Tohr'mentirii against the West & Archestral South while back on S'iolaen, but you placed those events on Terminus? In the same vein, is there lore about the Archestral elves from S'iolaen settling in the south of Faerhtale somewere?
Three political factions of elf makes sense, I think we might easily find even more factions once we start exploring Terminus for real. But in reference to gameplay, I know of nothing to suggest that a player can choose to NOT be an Ashen or Ember and just remain Lucent while playing the game. Though perhaps you just mean various NPC elves are not A. or E. ? [Not to encourage you to break the NDA :) ]
Thanks
To answer the first:
You are right. I had to go back and clean up my own brain. The three factions were on S'iolaen, my bad. So, that does change the way I was viewing the five forests of Faerthale. The Guardian North did not join the Tohr'mentirii, they were renamed to that. They joined the beasts of Tohr. Tohr'mentirii probably means something like Followers of Tohr or agents of Tohr or something like that.
Second, there is a little theorycrafting going on here. We have heard from lore that classes not lining up with the cultural morals will get you exiled to Splinterfolk. If you are Splinterfolk, you hypothetically could not be Ashen or Ember, unless by your own code. That's why I think there will be some mechanic in game where you choose to be Ashen or Ember after establishing your character in-game, even though per another part of the lore, all elves are Ashen due to being born elvish after the second burning during the Deicide War. An elf rogue may find a hard life, having poor faction with Ashen and Ember. It may be possible to gain faction enough to join one at some point, though, just as I have guessed at some point in the overall arc of the game Thaolyn Greyborne will sit on the Council of the Nine as a warrior after being a rogue and Splinterfolk early in adulthood. That's a lot of speculation, though. Crowsinger would probably have some insights here as well since she did a deep dive on elves for her book, In The Sway Of Storm. Would like to get her thoughts...
Yes I don't consider Tohr'mentirii to be elves at all. They along with the Beasts of Tohr are inhabitants of S'iolaen.
I had to think about these things a lot because I was writing a story that takes place during the Deicide War (leading up to it and the end of the war in Kingsreach). With dialog you have to think about things like "How do these people describe themselves?" And even then they (Kaolyen Greyborne for example) admitted that history would remember things differently. So in dialog people talk about "devout Ashen elves" because it seemed from my reading to be a Way, a Path, keeping to the songs and celebrations and reading and quoting from the Book of S'iolaen.
Ember elves grew as a faction, a Way if you will, after the War. They came back to find everything burned, but the Lucent still alive. What kind of societal changes occur in the aftermath of such a war? All we know is that there are still most elves (who I feel are neither Ashen nor Amber), then the devout Ashen scholars remembering the past and carving it into their souls, and the perhaps recklessly proactive Ember elves (whom my character Isonis implies he will join in the aftermath) who don't feel that watching the woods and borders is sufficient to protect them.
I ended up reading the lore over and over again (and asking questions of Benonai and Therek) to just get a feel for how these people might talk about themselves in that time. Which (as Benonai points out) is not necessarily the same way that history will remember them in the 900s.
As for the Tohrn, the name is quite similar to Tohr'mentirii, and I don't know what that means. Is there a spiritual connection between the Tohr'mentirii on S'iolaen and the Tohrn on Terminus? Both are Revenant (as it were) and not elves.
Edited to add: Isonis himself began as Splinterfolk in the story, wanting to join mainstream elven society, but ended up Ember. I wonder how often we might see such faction fluidity in the game.
Not to change topics, but a robust faction system that's a little more nuanced than one point of faction for every gnoll kill would be nice :) There should be things that can destroy your faction with one major action, as well as one major thing that can make you a hero to a faction. Like you said, Crow: fluidity.
Thanks for the comments!!!
That's an interesting if challenging question for me. I don't have a quick answer right off, but I'll think about it for a couple of days and try to post a useful answer.
Of course I'm out of town, house/garden/pet sitting for a friend right now, so my hours in front of the screen are somewhat diminished. Feel free to give me a nudge if I haven't replied by next week's big event, which I'll certainly attend.
Just want to say thanks much to all for this conversation. It's helped clear my understanding and brought some questions and thoughts bubbling to the top. Love that. ;)