Forums » The Elves

Ashen or Ember

    • 102 posts
    February 16, 2018 9:57 PM PST

    I'm leaning in favor of an Ember Enchanter or Shaman for launch. How about you?


    This post was edited by Haseno at February 16, 2018 10:19 PM PST
    • 59 posts
    February 17, 2018 7:36 PM PST

    I would have loved to play an Ashen Cleric but I'm happy to get my Dark Myr healing gig on. That said, I am so stoked to play an Ember Summoner because much as I love healing, sometimes it's fun to blow stuff up.  <3

     


    This post was edited by Heloisa at February 17, 2018 7:37 PM PST
    • 279 posts
    February 18, 2018 2:47 PM PST

    Question for you all -

    Do you feel like we have done a good job setting up *some* of the differences between the Ashen and Ember? Do you feel like you can identify them from each other, yet also see how they don't outwardly hate each other? That they aren't two separate subraces, etc?

    Looks like I asked more than one question. Alas!

    • 700 posts
    February 19, 2018 4:08 AM PST

    Istuulamae said:

    Question for you all -

    Do you feel like we have done a good job setting up *some* of the differences between the Ashen and Ember? Do you feel like you can identify them from each other, yet also see how they don't outwardly hate each other? That they aren't two separate subraces, etc?

    Looks like I asked more than one question. Alas!



    I think you did a good job explaining that they both have the Elves best interest at heart but are attacking it from different angles. Like two political parties having different opinions about which way the nation should go.

    So good job - unless I have it all wrong xD


    -sorte.

    • 4534 posts
    February 19, 2018 5:28 AM PST

    Istuulamae said:

    Question for you all -

    Do you feel like we have done a good job setting up *some* of the differences between the Ashen and Ember? Do you feel like you can identify them from each other, yet also see how they don't outwardly hate each other? That they aren't two separate subraces, etc?

    Looks like I asked more than one question. Alas!

    Yeah I think it's actually very clear that they are just two sides of the same coin. (Feel free to steal that metaphor if you haven't already lol) They seem to simply have very different "solutions" to a common problem. I think that's something that arises in real life pretty regularly and is therefore quite relatable. For example, you think it should be done this way and I think it should be done that way. The views may contradict in some ways, but ultimately we're on the same side trying to reach the same goal. That's how I see it anyway. I look forward to learning more about how these differences apply to actual gameplay and character creation though.

    • 32 posts
    February 19, 2018 5:44 AM PST

    I'm sure I'll have an elf alt in there somewhere but IDK which class it'd be yet.

    Thinking if I go for a caster or druid type elf I'll probably do Ashen and if I go for a more aggressive feeling class like a Warrior or Ranger then Ember. Just to match ^_^

    • 16 posts
    February 19, 2018 9:47 AM PST

    Sorte said:

    Istuulamae said:

    Question for you all -

    Do you feel like we have done a good job setting up *some* of the differences between the Ashen and Ember? Do you feel like you can identify them from each other, yet also see how they don't outwardly hate each other? That they aren't two separate subraces, etc?

    Looks like I asked more than one question. Alas!



    I think you did a good job explaining that they both have the Elves best interest at heart but are attacking it from different angles. Like two political parties having different opinions about which way the nation should go.

    So good job - unless I have it all wrong xD


    -sorte.

     

    To be honest, in lore yes; BUT, without being in game, it is hard to say how well the differentiation is represented. I admit, I am still trying to get my head around the direction and choices VR has gone with the Elves.

    • 2010 posts
    February 19, 2018 12:05 PM PST

    Istuulamae said:

    Question for you all -

    Do you feel like we have done a good job setting up *some* of the differences between the Ashen and Ember? Do you feel like you can identify them from each other, yet also see how they don't outwardly hate each other? That they aren't two separate subraces, etc?

    Looks like I asked more than one question. Alas!

    Relating them to what we already know makes comparing the two to wood elf and high elf fairly easy even though they aren't supposed to be separate subraces.  I don't think you are going to be able to get away from that unless they are made more similar. 

    There is nothing to say that the "standard" wood elves and high elves that we know from Tolkein or EQ etc didn't start out as the same race but over many generations they separated into two "sub races".  I think a good job was done separating the Ashen and Ember and explaining the differences, but at the same time explaining the similarities and that they still get along with each other regardless of their differences. 

    It shouldn't matter if people consider them subraces that get along with each other...or the same race that has grown apart and adapted different ways of living.  They are very similar perspectives.

     

     


    This post was edited by philo at February 19, 2018 2:28 PM PST
    • 424 posts
    February 20, 2018 8:11 PM PST

    Istuulamae said:

    Question for you all -

    Do you feel like we have done a good job setting up *some* of the differences between the Ashen and Ember? Do you feel like you can identify them from each other, yet also see how they don't outwardly hate each other? That they aren't two separate subraces, etc?

    Looks like I asked more than one question. Alas!

    I understand the premise behind the Ember and Ashen (really all three if you count the Lucent as well.) The terrific conversation between Forrest, Jared, Justin and Chis in the newsletter paints a clear picture! My understanding is that the three types of elves are different in how they relate to the outside world and what they think is best for all the elves as a whole. The Ashen being the more inwardly focused of the three, believing the elven way is best. The Ember are more proactive in seeking out and destroying others who could potentially threaten their well being while the Lucent fall somwhere in between. Based on the concept art it looks like it'll be easy enough to distiguish between the two ends of the spectrum. 

    However, what I'm not quite clear on is what(who?) determines if an elf is Ember, Ashen or Lucent? You say they aren't separate subraces. I'm not sure why that is. Do they decide for themselves which they will choose? Is Ashen, Ember and Lucent more of an ideology the elves choose for themselves at some point? Are they raised as a particular type? Born into it? Can an Ember elf become an Ashen and vice versa? Why do the two elves in the concept art look physically different from one another if they aren't subraces? 

    So I think I understand the differences in the philosophical outlooks between the types I just don't know how and why they got there or where it leads... maybe those are questions that will be answered as more lore becomes available. hint, hint :)

    All in all, this is an excellent contribution to the newsletter! I love the direction elves are taking, I love the art and architecture and the fact that this is a new take on elves! I can't wait to explore their mountain home and find out more!

     - Mal  


    This post was edited by Malsirian at February 20, 2018 8:12 PM PST
    • 98 posts
    February 22, 2018 8:09 AM PST

    The divide between Ashen and Ember really helped me understand why Elves can't be Clerics. The Ashen Elves, so involved in the past of their people, would be natural Shaman, who draw strength from ancestry and the past. The Ember, looking outward, driven by their former glory and smouldering with passion, go with the natural world and would be excellent Druids. Furthermore, the Ashen, who spend great amounts of time connected to their past and present as a tree-dwelling people that commune with nature, are excellent druids. The Ember are motivated by the ghosts of Elves past and spend a great deal of time preoccupied with the races without. The long-lived Ember could see entire generations of enemies be born, live, and die, and it stands to reason that they could learn to manipulate that ancestral link and become fine Shaman.

    With the Ashen and Ember being so suited to being Druids and Shaman... what room is there for Clerics in their society? Their Gods are hardly mentioned in the Lore we have, with Aellos and Dythiir being instrumental with their former societies but scarcely thought of in their current form. I can picture the Elven Clerics slowly disappear as the Elves' obsession with their past and their ancestors turn them to Shamanism. I still believe that the remnants of the Clerical orders could birth a few generations of Lucent Paladins that turn the former Clerical tradition of the Elves to the purpose of keeping their fundamentally divided society together despite the deep idealogical differences between them.

    Elf Paladins shouldn't need Elf Clerics VR. The pieces are all there, and we need another race to be Paladins. Don't let the Dwarves and Humans have all the glory!


    This post was edited by Darchias at February 22, 2018 8:10 AM PST
    • 3002 posts
    February 22, 2018 2:19 PM PST

    I don't believe Elves ever had clerics. Their love of nature and ancestry likely comes from their gods, as such their gods also likely imparted unto them the ways of druidry and shamanism instead of some strict order of clerics. 

     

    Malsirian said:

     

    However, what I'm not quite clear on is what(who?) determines if an elf is Ember, Ashen or Lucent? You say they aren't separate subraces. I'm not sure why that is. Do they decide for themselves which they will choose? Is Ashen, Ember and Lucent more of an ideology the elves choose for themselves at some point? Are they raised as a particular type? Born into it? Can an Ember elf become an Ashen and vice versa? Why do the two elves in the concept art look physically different from one another if they aren't subraces? 

    They are one race, just different factions/ideologies within. The two elves in the concept art look pretty much exactly the same as far as I can tell, one being a bit more tan perhaps but a ranger would be more tan than a studious wizard. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at February 22, 2018 2:26 PM PST
    • 452 posts
    February 22, 2018 4:49 PM PST

    Istuulamae said:

    Question for you all -

    Do you feel like we have done a good job setting up *some* of the differences between the Ashen and Ember? Do you feel like you can identify them from each other, yet also see how they don't outwardly hate each other? That they aren't two separate subraces, etc?

    Looks like I asked more than one question. Alas!

    As Baz stated difficult to say if not in game , but i do see the difference from what whats told in the Feb newsletter . Same but different . each with there own beliefs on how to go forward . I have to say again i love the color palette .

    • 279 posts
    February 25, 2018 7:53 PM PST

    Thanks for the feedback, everyone. It helps to hear from your perspective what is and what is not coming through.

    To Malsirian, and anyone else wondering about this, what Iksar said is very close to the bullseye. All Elves are born Lucent then may become Ashen, Ember or remain Lucent. Ember and Ashen are powerful branches within the larger Elven tree, yet not trees of their own.

    While there are certainly hereditary bents or traits toward one or the other (or to stay Lucent), there is no DNA-based, predetermined course. Are there families who challenge this fact because of their strict adherence to one side or the other? Sure, and there are rebels, purists, favored sons and black sheep just like any other family tree.

    As for the apparent physical differences between the two, there are some lore-based reasons I'd like to mention.

    First, the Ashen deliberately avoid bringing additional attention to themselves. That isn't to say their ceremonies aren't striking or their clothing is a burlap sack, but they would rather seek to elevate the stories and scriptures of their people than their own image. They are genuinely pious and humble. As for their pale complexion, Ashen will 1) spend less time outdoors and thus in sunlight than other Elves, on account of their study-based lifestyle and daily habits. 2) They will paint their faces in white-grey ash for ceremony or in times of meditation or battle. This will often remain in the skin, even after ceremonial washing, and they may apply a faux ash powder to keep the skin a similar color. Along with this they often dye their hair a coal black and straighten it like a slab of marble.

    Ember are much the opposite -- at least within the bounds of Elven tastes. They aren't flashy in a Thronefastian sense, but they are far more comfortable with making an entrance than an Ashen would be. They enjoy the outdoors and the animal kingdom, counting many as companions. Ember love nature for its colorful array along with its preserving and enduring strengths, and their hair, clothing and complexion reflect that admiration. The freckles on the female Ember would be visible on the male Ashen, if they weren’t covered up.

    Once again, thank you all for the feedback. It is very helpful to hear. Take care.



     


    This post was edited by Istuulamae at February 25, 2018 7:55 PM PST
    • 17 posts
    June 15, 2020 12:08 PM PDT

    I'm very curious as to if Ember Elves or Ashen Elves would go best for enchanter. I'm waiting to decide, but I think it could go either way depending on the playstyle.

    • 1452 posts
    June 28, 2020 2:31 PM PDT

    Aldrian said:

    I'm very curious as to if Ember Elves or Ashen Elves would go best for enchanter. I'm waiting to decide, but I think it could go either way depending on the playstyle.

    Are you aware of the passive Racial abilities of the Elves that have been revealed to us? They aren't as powerful as the Racial actives will be (which haven't been revealed yet) but from what we know currently, the Ashen have Racials that benefit spellcasters and the Ember have Racials that benefit melee characters. Plus they both have Racials that benefit agility and resistance to Nature magic.

    • 8 posts
    September 21, 2020 9:31 PM PDT
    Ashen for me. I love their unique feel and traditions. I'll be playing an Ashen Elf Druid.
    • 1135 posts
    February 18, 2021 6:27 AM PST

    I really can't say what I'll be playing until we have more info, most importantly (for me) the effects of attributes on combat mechanics.  I say this specifically taking into consideration things like the Ranger or Rogue being an "agile" class - and the Ember Elves bonus attack rating from dexterity combined with the bonus to agility based skills... and how that works with strength too (i.e. will they benefit from the atk bonus of strength, or does only the highest attribute contribute?).  I would presume that would be quite the advantage.  Based off of what I can piece together, attribute scores will be low (single digit to start) and likely have a low soft/hard cap; That being the case, being able to obtain bonuses from multiple attributes would be advantageous and likely lend to hitting soft/hard caps easier, allowing for a more well rounded character (by maybe being able to focus on stamina/hp or other skills/attributes that others would struggle to attain).

    That is all speculation of course.  We will have a ton of testing to do.  I have some other race/class combos in mind that may become a min/max type of character depending on synergy of attributes with game mechanics, but this one (Ember Elf Rangers/Rogues/Bard) is something that will be min/max for sure if it functions anywhere near how I mentioned.

    Add:  When I say min/max, I mean the race being selected simply because of its strength with a particular class instead of Role Playing purposes or Lore.


    This post was edited by Darch at February 18, 2021 6:31 AM PST
    • 1452 posts
    February 18, 2021 3:08 PM PST

    @Darch I agree with you. Ember is high on my list for both those classes too. I also agree with what you said about being 'well rounded'. It seems to me that there's a wide range of assets that are of help to each class, and shorting some to max others might be less advantageous in Pantheon than it is in some other games.

    • 452 posts
    August 8, 2021 6:36 PM PDT

    Istuulamae said:

    Thanks for the feedback, everyone. It helps to hear from your perspective what is and what is not coming through.

    To Malsirian, and anyone else wondering about this, what Iksar said is very close to the bullseye. All Elves are born Lucent then may become Ashen, Ember or remain Lucent. Ember and Ashen are powerful branches within the larger Elven tree, yet not trees of their own.

    While there are certainly hereditary bents or traits toward one or the other (or to stay Lucent), there is no DNA-based, predetermined course. Are there families who challenge this fact because of their strict adherence to one side or the other? Sure, and there are rebels, purists, favored sons and black sheep just like any other family tree.

    As for the apparent physical differences between the two, there are some lore-based reasons I'd like to me .



     

     

    Was curious about something , If one decides to go  Ashen/Ember Do you lose your Lucent passives ? 

    Would seem like you would no longer have your Lucent passives , otherwise why would anyone stay Lucent ? 

    Seems like Ashen and Ember would be far more powerful not only with their passives but the Lucent passives , Unless of course Lucent receives extra passives .

    I read on many sites and I see no one wanting to stay Lucent , making me curious as to why ?

    The Druid is very nature heavy with spells , Thereby making Lucent a very good choice unless the Ashens keep the Lucent passives as well as receiving Ashen passives ..

    I'm aware that everything is subject to change .  

     

    • 695 posts
    August 8, 2021 9:01 PM PDT

    Obviously I can't answer for the Dev's, but the way I interpret things; there are not really different Races of Elves but rather just different Cultures of Elves. So Ashen and Ember are all still just Elves, but due to the events of their past they have deviated in priorities and goals.

    "I read on many sites and I see no one wanting to stay Lucent , making me curious as to why? The Druid is very nature heavy with spells , Thereby making Lucent a very good choice"

    As for your question... Lucent isn't one of these Cultures or one of your choices. Lucent is the Tree that the Elves planted in the Roan mountains on Terminus with the Heartseed that they pulled from the tree named Lumos that was Burned before they left their homeworld planet S'iolaen.

    So the Lucent Ancestry passive is due to the fact that the Elves on Terminus lived under the great Lucent Tree before it too was Burned. Ashen was the Culture that formed after their first great Tree Lumos was burned and Ember was the Culture that formed (as an offshoot of Ashen) after the Lucent Tree was burned. Both groups lived with the great Lucent Tree while on Terminus and thus both will have the 'Lucent Ancestry' passive due to their connection to that Tree.

    The 'Nimble' passive of course is just part of the Elvish DNA and thus also applies to both Ashen and Ember Cultures.

    The other Passives you gain depend on which Culture you decide that your Character grew up in. It seems like the Ember culture focuses more on Melee type things and Ashen culture focuses more on Magical type things. So the passives you gain are tied to these focuses of their Cultures.

    So to repeat: Both Ashen and Ember Elves will have 'Lucent Ancestry' and 'Nimble' passives.

    If you pick the Ember Culture you would then also gain 'Unflinching' and 'Deftness' passives, while if you pick Ashen you will instead gain 'Deep Recitation' and 'Sagacious' passives.


    This post was edited by GoofyWarriorGuy at August 8, 2021 9:03 PM PDT
    • 452 posts
    August 9, 2021 5:49 AM PDT

    @goofy Thanks for response :) 

    I no longer have a link since the forums have changed but i did write down some things ( may no longer hold true )

    Justin back in 2018 said " How are they different " response , but I'm happy to go up to the ankle. The elves are NOT two branches , but three .

    even on this page Istuulamae states that one can  choose to be ashen or ember OR remain Lucent ! 

     

    Edit: perhaps I was not clear on my questions .

    I fully understand the elves As Justin has posted they are siblings same DNA yet they all hold different beliefs or ideology .

    My understanding is , That when we choose elves as our race we are Lucent ! we may choose to remain a Lucent or go Ashen or Ember !

    That is three branches three choices . 

    So my questions are :If we choose to go Ashen or Ember do we lose the Lucent passives ? If we retain the lucent passives ( excluding Truesight Which all branches have due to fact its in our DNA ) , Why would anyone REMAIN a LUCENT ?  

     

     


    This post was edited by Shea at August 9, 2021 8:27 AM PDT
    • 1452 posts
    August 9, 2021 3:31 PM PDT

    Shea said:

    My understanding is , That when we choose elves as our race we are Lucent ! we may choose to remain a Lucent or go Ashen or Ember !

    If we retain the lucent passives ( excluding Truesight Which all branches have due to fact its in our DNA ) , Why would anyone REMAIN a LUCENT ? 

    I can see why you might wonder about this. I still find myself agreeing with Goofy though.

    On the Elves racial page, there are only 2 types of Elves defined, their names being in large yellow font. 'Lucent Ancestry' and 'Nimble' are just abilities, listed in smaller blue font, in a way that shows them as being part of both Ember & Ashen Elves' passives. There is no separate listing for Lucent Elves.

    If it were intended that not choosing Emb or Ash would be a viable choice for Players, then it would have been a huge mistake for VR to not have defined their passives separately on the Elf Race Page. And it would be an equally silly strategy to give their passives to Emb/Ash Elves without defining some counterbalancing abilities available to Lucent only Elves.

    We may well see some NPC Elves in their villages that never joined the Ashen or the Ember, but I have seen nothing to suggest that we can play an Elf without choosing one or the other during char creation, or right afterward in the starter town in Faerthale.

    That there is NO reason (or the game doesn't allow) for anyone to choose neither group seems to me like the only reason for everything I describe above being the way it is.

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Jothany at August 9, 2021 3:57 PM PDT
    • 695 posts
    August 9, 2021 11:14 PM PDT

    @Shea I found the article (on web.archive.org) you made your notes from: Feb 2018 Newsletter.

    Here are some quotes from it so you don't need to go read the whole thing.

     

    "I dipped a toe in the pond of this question on the "How are they different" response, but I'm happy to go up to the ankle. The Elves are not two branches, but three. The third and most numerous is the Lucent Elf, and they run a pretty wide range in the space between the Ashen and Ember. I'll look briefly at how each one competes with this question.

    Ashen are generally cold and dispassionate toward outsiders. This isn't because they think everyone beyond Faerthale is the Revenant or Tohr'mentirii (read the lore), though there is a distrust toward non-Elves that can lead to suspicion. Instead the Ashen have cultivated an intense preoccupation with their own world. They have no great trouble acknowledging the good of others, but they are reluctant to see the merit in embracing them. If the Elven way is the best way then any way that's not Elven is, by default, not as good.

    For Lucent Elves, the Ashen heritage of suspicion toward outsiders is distilled down into something more like reservation and caution. They don't all have the same thoughts toward outsiders, but generally speaking they have no abiding fear of other races or overwhelming concern about their presence within Elven territory. But they still prefer the woods of their home to the wilds of elsewhere, and if they travel beyond Faerthale it is most often out of need instead of adventure.

    The Ember cut a path far beyond their siblings due to a zeal that lives just below the skin. It isn't a passion of affection, but a fervent desire to visit death upon would be harmers of their people while they are still far away from Faerthale. I think this is where a misconception can occur in who the Ember are, because they are not simply the more relaxed and fiery cousin in the family. They don't necessarily trust outsiders any more than Ashen, but they do see the merit of exploring and engaging the vastness of the outside world. The Ember have an aggressive concern for their people that manifests in a hunter's heart, rather than a priest's piety.

     

    So yes you were correct that there are actually 3 sub-cultures or 'Branches' as Justin refers to them. Here is another quote:


    "The uniqueness of the Ember and Ashen backstory and setting. We are used to Elves being either High or Wood or Dark, having totally different cultures, living in totally different establishments and having little to do with one another. I like that our Elves dwell together, come from the same stock, but yet have visual and cultural distinctives. And then being able to choose to play as either an Ember or Ashen elf adds a nice layer of depth to player choice and immersion."


    He does not specifically say that Elves can choose to stay Lucent, but he doesn't really not say it either. All he said is that Players are "... able to choose to play as either an Ember or Ashen" which may still leave the option to 'not choose' either of those too. So you might be right. If you are... it might be that Lucent Elves maintain a more Neutral faction with various other races and by not choosing Ember or Ashen you instead might have an easier time with other NPC types out there, at the sacrifice of extra Passives.

    We will need to wait and see I guess.

    • 452 posts
    August 10, 2021 6:56 AM PDT

    @Goofy Bless you , the exact thread I was talking about Thank you :)

    So three branches , Now even in this thread Istuulamae clearly states : All elves are born Lucent Then MAY become Ashen, Ember or *REMAIN* Lucent

    He also states : While there are certainly hereditary bents or traits towards one or the other ( or to *REMAIN* Lucent) .

    Making me believe there will be three branches , three choices .


    This post was edited by Shea at August 11, 2021 5:41 AM PDT
    • 477 posts
    November 28, 2021 2:44 AM PST

    Admittedly, I have not kept up on the lore or class/race changes the past few years but I notice on the Elven race page, the passives currently appear to offer only two options (or choices). My current understanding;

    Each of those options have two bonuses:

    Ashen get Deep Recitation and Sagacious.

    Ember receive Unflinching and Deftness

    And both option receive the two Lucent passives of Lucent Ancestry of Nimble.

     

    But it sounds like someething different now and I'm not sure I understand the Elvish race as I had thought. I'm hearing this idea that players can opt to remain Lucent but it doesn't currently appear as an official option for the Elven race. Reading the Newsletter (and Istuulamae's post above) it almost seems that there are indeed three different groupings of Elves; the Lucent, the Ashen, and the Ember.

     

    Since all other races have four (4) racial bonuses. Elves would only have two (2)? I'm confuzzled. Understand, I know changes can happen up till and beyond release, I'm just trying to clarify my own thoughts on the race. 


    This post was edited by OakKnower at November 28, 2021 2:45 AM PST