TheWingless said:Vandraad said:[...]
[...] Necromancers raise the dead, sure, but they make undead when they do it. That's the whole shtick. If anything, Necros should have the ability to raise dead party members as temporary pets, but not back to living breathing people. That's just not what they do.
Oh my. For balance or risk factor, if I was smart enough to code as such, I would have the raised player character like a loose canon. spell set?: RNG from all available, weapons? RNG from all available including none... Skill sets? RNG. Necro can command to attack, but if player raise dead it will NOT stop attacking until target is dead (aka: zombies "braiiiiins!"). NPC necro pets are different, they have attack and stop commands, and only use their given spell set. But using a player? that's crazy risky. Sometimes, you need crazy. If player raise dead is used, original player corpse is frozen/rooted. I.E. it cannot be moved or dragged or rezzed until raised dead is killed or commanded away by necro. Player impact on normal rez after being raised: No rez sickness, but ALL skills, spells, globals are on double cool-down timers. And people still speak of the one man Skar zerg that won the multi-group event when only the necro remained, they thought it was a wipe.
I'm fine with the Paladin having a reduced xp % res at higher levels. I REALLY don't want to see other classes with ability though. It would take too much away from healers and the added utility the Paladin gets.
I honestly don't think there's a situation where I'd change my mind.
Ranarius said:I don't think anyone other than healers should get resurrection spells. Feels off, that is definitely something that makes healers healers..it's like the ultimate heal. Healing someeone from being dead to being alive.
XD. Thats a really good way of putting it Ranarius. Thank you for your service. "Healing someeone from being dead to being alive."
Ranarius said:What if a Paladin resurrect was only powerful because of WHO he was resurrecting? Put whatever lore or story or reasoning you want behind it, but maybe they're only powerful enough to reserrect other players who are powerful enough to resurrect anyone. (Paladins can only res priest classes).
That is definately VR should put into the game if paladins end up underpowered (if they are worse at agro control, aoe, or something like that).
My two cents-
I think healers should be the only classes with a combat rez. For an out of combat rez, if it fits the theme of the class that would be fine with me. Like if a Necromancer had a rez that was flavoured around catching someones soul and shoving it back into their body I think that'd be cool. But something like a Rogue with a rez? Doesn't make sense thematically to me. As for items having something like FF's pheonix down's to rez party members could be ok cause magical item. Though I think if there is an item able to rez a party member it too should be locked to out of combat.
Game-wise, all healers need a way they can be rez'd, otherwise we're basically punishing them. I like the idea of them (and only them) being able to carry a consumable item that others can use on them to bring them back up.
I like Paladins having a rez (the current one in game seems to fit quite thematically). It will take up a LAS slot, so that helps balance it.
I want the Necro to have a rez as well, but it should be a crafting type of rez that requires a fresh corpse to be next to the dead character. This could be done in combat, but would be difficult and thus create a fun tactical option.
Counterfleche said: Game-wise, all healers need a way they can be rez'd, otherwise we're basically punishing them.
Try as I might, I can't figure out what you mean by 'punishing them'. Can you plz explain?
I like Paladins having a rez (the current one in game seems to fit quite thematically). It will take up a LAS slot, so that helps balance it.
As far as I know, the rez ability will have to be on every Class's LAS bar to use it?
Jothany said:Counterfleche said: Game-wise, all healers need a way they can be rez'd, otherwise we're basically punishing them.Try as I might, I can't figure out what you mean by 'punishing them'. Can you plz explain?
Assuming most groups will have one healer, that means the only person who won't benefit from getting rez'd is the healer. This means that healers will be stuck with the more harsh death mechanics (release to bind , more xp lost, and corpse run) far more often than any other roll.
Jothany said:
Counterfleche said:I like Paladins having a rez (the current one in game seems to fit quite thematically). It will take up a LAS slot, so that helps balance it.As far as I know, the rez ability will have to be on every Class's LAS bar to use it?
Yes, but it's much more likely to be in a healer's bar because it's a class-defining, core ability. For the Paladin, it's an off-role ability and (presumably) redundant with the healer, so the Paladin will be much less likely to have it slotted. This makes it more situational.
Counterfleche said: Assuming most groups will have one healer, that means the only person who won't benefit from getting rez'd is the healer. This means that healers will be stuck with the more harsh death mechanics (release to bind , more xp lost, and corpse run) far more often than any other roll.
I'm only addressing XP loss in these comments, since I personally don't see corpse runs to be on the same level. Friends can make a corpse run into a walk in the park, but a server full of friends still won't keep you from losing XP at death, or losing more without a rez.
I see several factors that could significantly negate the magnitude of the imbalance you refer to. So while I don't argue that healers will likely have more unrezed deaths in groups than other classes, I don't agree that they will suffer far more of a penalty from that mechanic than other players.
A healer's death is IMO a situation much more likely to lead to full wipe than just losing a DPS. Even more likely than losing a tank or support, since some (or most/all) healers will have combat rez. So I see a higher % of healers' deaths as occuring in a full wipe than most other classes' deaths. And in a full wipe everyone is going to suffer the same penalty, so those deaths don't add to the class imbalance we're discussing.
Another factor is that in most groups, most of the time, everyone is going to have the healer's survival as a primary goal. Any tank or DPS with experience will try to pull agro off the healer, even at the cost of their own death. This factor alone suggest to me that even though a healer may not recover xp (thru rez) as often as other classes, other classes will probably - on average - die more often than healers. And lose at least some xp. Hence some amount of balancing over time.
The last - and least assured - facter I see is that Panth is expected to be a very challenging game for groups. Since a 'fully functional' group only needs 4 classes/roles to cover all the bases, my assumption is that experienced players will include a 2nd healer in groups - at least when going into unknown areas or those they know to be seriously dangerous - more often than they might have in other games. The broad utility of both Shaman & Druid, coupled with the LAS, seems IMO to be intended to allow just such a tactic to be much more appealing to a group, despite the loss of additional DPS it includes.
Whether this all balances the situation or not, only time will tell. But I see it as just as much of 'class balance' as anything else. I therefore don't see it as "punishing" healers any more than not having rez ability is punishing every other class. Or not having portals is punishing every class except Wizard and Druid. Just my perspective.
Yes, but it's much more likely to be in a healer's bar because it's a class-defining, core ability. For the Paladin, it's an off-role ability and (presumably) redundant with the healer, so the Paladin will be much less likely to have it slotted. This makes it more situational.
I have to play Devil's advocate here :)
Rez is arguably one of the couple most powerful abilities in the game. As someone planning to play a tank - though not Paly - I would only not put res on my bar unless I really needed every other ability that I was putting on it. Certainly if I knew I was going to a place likely to get my healer killed. Unless.... we were taking two healers :)
Jothany said:[As far as I know, the rez ability will have to be on every Class's LAS bar to use it?
This is another point where the LAS is just going to really punish Priest classes. As we know, you cannot change spells in combat, so resurrect will always be on a the hotbar of a Priest. The last thing you want is to be unable to rez in combat because you were stupid and didn't put Rez on your spellbar. So your LAS is even more limited.
Looking at this specifically from the Shaman point of view, I predict my LAS will have but 1 (maybe 2) slots that would be things I could change from time to time with the rest of the slots all being permanently populated by the same spells. VR talks a lot of about not having rotations, etc, but Priests will absolutely be doing this.
Vandraad said:Jothany said: [As far as I know, the rez ability will have to be on every Class's LAS bar to use it?This is another point where the LAS is just going to really punish Priest classes. As we know, you cannot change spells in combat, so resurrect will always be on a the hotbar of a Priest. The last thing you want is to be unable to rez in combat because you were stupid and didn't put Rez on your spellbar. So your LAS is even more limited.
Looking at this specifically from the Shaman point of view, I predict my LAS will have but 1 (maybe 2) slots that would be things I could change from time to time with the rest of the slots all being permanently populated by the same spells. VR talks a lot of about not having rotations, etc, but Priests will absolutely be doing this.
Well that's one perspective, for sure. Unless I'm soloing, I can't see any reason to not have a combat rez on my bar since it's a class defining ability. I wouldn't expect any group to ever again invite me if I didn't have it available when needed LoL.
I'm really looking forward to playing both Shaman and Druid from what we know about them. I guess it's just my optimistic outlook that makes me see things differently.
If you were in my group and you did not have the right ability up like a rez I would definitely invite you again. First, I am not even sure I agree that a battle rez in most group situation would be a requirement and second, I am fine with my group members not being perfect.
What do people think about Vanguards healer ability to summon a Gem of Life for there group members. This gem could be used to rez the healer that summoned the gem if they died.
Jothany said:[...]
A healer's death is IMO a situation much more likely to lead to full wipe than just losing a DPS. [...] So I see a higher % of healers' deaths as occuring in a full wipe than most other classes' deaths. [...]
This factor alone suggest to me that even though a healer may not recover xp (thru rez) as often as other classes, other classes will probably - on average - die more often than healers. And lose at least some xp. Hence some amount of balancing over time.
That's a good point which I hadn't considered. It will take developers with access to a few months of Alpha play test data to see how well it balances.
The last - and least assured - facter I see is that Panth is expected to be a very challenging game for groups. Since a 'fully functional' group only needs 4 classes/roles to cover all the bases, my assumption is that experienced players will include a 2nd healer in groups - at least when going into unknown areas or those they know to be seriously dangerous - more often than they might have in other games.
If players choose roles in a similar ratio to most past MMOs, I suspect there will be too few healers for more than a few groups to double up. The switch to having a Quadrinity means even less raw DPS, so I suspect that, plus the popularity of DPS classes, will lead to few groups doubling up on tank, healer, or support very often.
Another factor is that in most groups, most of the time, everyone is going to have the healer's survival as a primary goal. Any tank or DPS with experience will try to pull agro off the healer, even at the cost of their own death.
The same DPS that doesn't know its standing in fire? In a halfway decent group, sure. But I've also been healer in groups where DPS starts new fights when I'm OOM and the tank is low on HP.
I have to play Devil's advocate here :)
Rez is arguably one of the couple most powerful abilities in the game. As someone planning to play a tank - though not Paly - I would only not put res on my bar unless I really needed every other ability that I was putting on it. Certainly if I knew I was going to a place likely to get my healer killed. Unless.... we were taking two healers :)
I appreciate the Devil's advocate position. I think that rez is too situational for Paladins to see heavy use. It's better to have an extra ability that gets frequent use and prevents the death in the first place. But this is all speculation and time will tell.
Susurrus said:What do people think about Vanguards healer ability to summon a Gem of Life for there group members. This gem could be used to rez the healer that summoned the gem if they died.
I like the idea quite a bit but have not played Vanguard so I've not experienced that game mechanic in action.
@ Susurrus Well thanks, I appreciate it :) I wouldn't really kick somebody out for one mistake either. I was mostly responding to "The last thing you want is to be unable to rez in combat because you were stupid and didn't put Rez on your spellbar." I only specified 'combat rez' because a rez ability that's only useful out combat can always be added to your bar once you are out of combat. So I figure that the battle rez is the most 'save your butt' one to have available.
I remember the Gem of Life in Vanguard. I certainly used it. But for the challenge that Panth is aiming for, I think it takes away far too much danger and is too forgiving of poor planning or mediocre skills. I want to be scared and cautious anywhere new, and plenty often in places I've been before. Having everyone in the group able to rez the healer seems like it makes group wipes so much less likely. But I admit if I get ingame and find that even decent groups seem to wipe more than half the time, you might change my opinion about it.
Counterfleche said: If players choose roles in a similar ratio to most past MMOs, I suspect there will be too few healers for more than a few groups to double up.
I've never looked at ratios for any game I played in the past. The only stats I know of come from this thread Janus posted a couple years back. https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12146/main-class-poll/view/post_id/237936
The average of 8 polls over 3 years had over 25% of respondents saying they would main one of the healers in Pantheon.
You have to be careful about the inferences you draw from statistics. The averages for all players on a server aren't particularly predictive of who you can find for grouping at any given time, since all of a server's players are not going to online at the same time. But even going by the stats in Janus' polls, 1 out of 4 players being a healer means 3 out of every 12. In a game with 6-person groups, half of all groups could have 2 healers.
The same DPS that doesn't know its standing in fire? In a halfway decent group, sure. But I've also been healer in groups where DPS starts new fights when I'm OOM and the tank is low on HP
LoL. I should have qualified almost every observation I made in that post with "on average, not counting player skill". Referring back to what Susurrus brought up, yes we will encounter oblivious players. But a player who doesn't become skillful over time is one I will, eventually, stop grouping with. I certainly expect to die A LOT in the early days of Pantheon. I look forward to it. But I expect to get better.
The way I see it, eventually you and I will be the skillful players in the 50% of groups with 2 healers (when needed) and solo healing when both of us aren't needed for the content. The oblivious players will be in the group with only one healer, taking on easier content that doesn't need 2 healers, or wiping because they haven't yet learned to tell the difference.
I think that rez is too situational for Paladins to see heavy use. It's better to have an extra ability that gets frequent use and prevents the death in the first place.
I've never been fond of Paladins, only played Warriors (or Dread Knight in Vanguard, thus my DL in Panth).
If you've played one, then your much more likely than me to be right.
Jothany said:Counterfleche said: If players choose roles in a similar ratio to most past MMOs, I suspect there will be too few healers for more than a few groups to double up.I've never looked at ratios for any game I played in the past. The only stats I know of come from this thread Janus posted a couple years back. https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12146/main-class-poll/view/post_id/237936
The average of 8 polls over 3 years had over 25% of respondents saying they would main one of the healers in Pantheon.
You have to be careful about the inferences you draw from statistics. The averages for all players on a server aren't particularly predictive of who you can find for grouping at any given time, since all of a server's players are not going to online at the same time. But even going by the stats in Janus' polls, 1 out of 4 players being a healer means 3 out of every 12. In a game with 6-person groups, half of all groups could have 2 healers.
I remember seeing Janus's poll data aggregation and, while I found it quite interesting, I also suspect it undercounts DPS. My suspicion is based on a personal hunch, not data, but I think forumgoers are more motivated and involved than the average player and thus I suspect forumgoers overrepresent the more involved classes (which I'm defining to mean classes with extra responsibility for group success).
I think there are plenty of players who want to participate but don't want to be relied upon, and they tend to skew as DPS and are less likely to be active in the forum. Similar to how I suspect active forumgoers are statistically more likely to form / lead teams and guilds.
I may very well be wrong on this. Either way, I am a fan of unusual teams so I have no issue with it and hope to experience all kinds of different combos. I'd love to try an all-rez team (two Paladins, two Clerics, a Druid, and a Shaman). Or even get six Clerics on a team. If it's fun, turn it into a guild called "Clerical Error" and make it a weekly group.
Hey,
i do not really care whether non-healers can resurrect or not. If it fits into the class then it is OK for me. I would not be against it when a necro can resurrect. Maybe it should be have more disadvantages like higher cooldown compared to healers.
Cheers
Jothany said:I've never looked at ratios for any game I played in the past. The only stats I know of come from this thread Janus posted a couple years back [...link omitted..]
The average of 8 polls over 3 years had over 25% of respondents saying they would main one of the healers in Pantheon.
While I won't start my Main until I have more of a handle on the game, my very first character, my "scout," will be a Druid. The idea is that they will be good at exploring, and being a healer, able to form groups.
I do like the idea of having a Paladin as an emergency rezzer, to resurrect the main healer, even at the possible sacrifice of their own life. Having my second alt be a Dwarven Paladin has absolutely nothing to do with this.
I'm not a fan of it.
I liked the EQ1 design with Clerics "then" Paladins beeing the only rezzers, but it contributed in making druids and shamans even worse as healers, on top having weaker HP buffs, and a reason why players didn't really want to comit in groups without clerics once lvl 30 was reached or zones distant from capitals.
I don't really see a way to make all healers competitive in the same spot if they don't share the same basic functionnalities (healing, buffing, rezzing).
All healers need to have a rez (and will have one is my understanding). I hope they will function substantially different and be evocative of the class. I'd like to see something like this:
Cleric - a translucent, angelic figure flys to the dead player and is absorbed into the character, rez'ing them and giving them a ghostly, winged look for a short duration as they glow with celestial light. This celestial protection protects them from physical damage for a short while.
Druid - casts a targeted AoE that rez's all dead within it and slowly heals them up to full so long as they stay in the area. The area is small and the cool down is long, but dead characters can be dragged into it. It could be a patch of flowering vines and is the only rez that can rez more than one character per casting.
Shaman - ancestral spirits swirl around the rez'd character. The closer enemies get, the more slowed they become (thematically a time draining AoE debuff centered on the revived).
Necro - can rez provided a fresh NPC corpse is next to the dead and its done within 5 minutes. It can be done in combat but it draws heavy aggro and is a slow process. The quicker the rez is done, the more HP is restored. The 5 minute time limit is thematic (freshness) and also provides for balance plus a tactical challenge.
Paladin's rez already revealed so no suggestions needed.