@feastycentral,
Enoden started a nice thread about flexroles under the Pantheon classes header,
Flex Roles (Purely Speculative) - Pantheon Forums (pantheonmmo.com)
I agreed with some of Enoden's ideas and expressed some of my own. As far as rez? maybe monk because they could re-align the deceased chi with shiatsu/accupunture or something. For gameplay balance it would not be a instant rez, but a long one(may seem like a time sink?). Some might argue shaman, but I would rather see Shaman using the presence of the recently deceased's spirit in the spirit realm to aid them in battle during which time the deceased could NOT be rezzed- as gameplay balance. Wizard dieing from a bee-sting? absolutely. If many rage-quit for dieing just because a hen breathed on them?- hey thats the class, Pure caster. But when they cast a spell? even the mountains cower. If a summoner can flex into a tank with a pet, and then flex half way again by being able to heal the pet? for gameplay balance I think a hybrid penalty is appropriate. Mages would always be behind in exp or levels.
Feastycentral said:What do you all think of non-healers having an in-combat resurrection spell/skill?
If, for instance, NPCs had the ability to resurrect their dead, it would be bad ass if certain classes had a means to directly counter or interfere with that, such as dire lords and necromancers, beyond just attacking the rezzer. A dire lord could mutilate a corpse, making it more resistant to rez for X seconds/minutes. A necromancer could place a curse upon a lifeless body, also making it more resistant to rez and, if rezzed despite resists, less capable as a combatant than it was previously. In areas overrun with priest class NPCs, that would create a small but continual sense of urgency/deligence to clear all NPC corpses in camp rather than just letting rot with the unwanted loot, and it would also add risk to anyone wanting to kill an NPC on one character and loot it on another. Kill, camp out, log in on other character only to find that the dead mob has been rezzed and is now aggroed onto your alt.
Ranarius said:What if a Paladin resurrect was only powerful because of WHO he was resurrecting? Put whatever lore or story or reasoning you want behind it, but maybe they're only powerful enough to reserrect other players who are powerful enough to resurrect anyone. (Paladins can only res priest classes).
Balanz said:I can imagine a Paladin sacrificing themselves in order to resurrect another character.
Great ideas. Limited/situational usefulness, yes, but still potentially very clutch so the class would have its moment to shine without detracting from the priest classes.
In terms of flavor, it would be cool if necromancers had some version of rez and, if not, than some means of reanimating a player's corpse temporarily to use as a pet, with positives and negatives in their new unnatural form. So it wouldn't be a rez, but instead a tool used in order to prevent a full wipe or fulfill a role for short duration.
This topic has been promoted for my CM content, please continue the discussion and have fun! :)
"Community Debate - Should non-healers resurrect? Have your say on this community-created thread: https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/13749/should-non-healers-resurrect #MMORPG #CommunityMatters #games"
So part of me is like only healers should get a resurrect ability. However, the other part of me is like... well... I could see paladins and necromancers also having access to it.
So, what I am going to go with is only healers should have resurrect abilities at lower levels. While paladins and necromancers can get gain access to it at the mid to higher levels. I also think there should be a fundamental difference between a healer's resurrect, a paladin's resurrect, and a necromancer's resurrect. I think the difference should be the amount of experience restored, and how long resurrection sickness lasts. I think that healers should get the best resurrects in the game restoring the most experience and having the least amount of sickness duration. Paladins should get access to the next "best" rez which provides minimal to moderate experience return and moderate sickness duration. Finally, necromancers should have a resurrection ability that restores a moderate amount of experience but has the longest duration of resurrection sickness. This ability should also have the unique ability to summon a player's corpse which can be looted.
I am not a fan of homogenization. However, I think that healer resurrections should be standardized for the most part. I think shamans are unique in the fact that their resurrection can be used in combat, which is fine as long as there is a trade-off to using it in combat. Maybe a CD occurs when it is used as combat rez and when used outside of combat there is no CD.
Combat rez is a huge deal. I personally think it needs to fit the race or class lore for it to be a thing. We want immersive play and giving something like a rogue or monk rez feels cheap. Also, we need to consider what we mean by resurrecting.
to me, rez is a good and dead body being restored to life even after rigor and early decomposition start. but maybe there is another way. what if they are only mostly dead? perhaps a resuscitate type ability that only works for a very short time after death, say up to 5 minutes after death, like CPR. if incorporated with a bind wound type ability, I think this could make some sense.
in my opinion, the 'bring back to life' kind of skill/spell needs two main components, a restoring of the soul/spirit/essence to the body and a repair of the damage that caused the death in the first place. so, if a non-healer class were to resuscitate a fallen comrade, they would need to patch the body up AND perform some sort of life-resuming act. this is easily covered for healers because any act to restore the essence/soul/spirit could simply include a healing component. for other classes, these probably would be separate things.
I definitely think there needs to be an in-game, lore reason for why this class can learn this ability. I also think it should remain difficult to obtain, time-consuming to perform, and limited to only a few classes. if everyone gets it, it's pretty useless overall. I think there should be a short time frame for a resuscitate type ability to be used, thus making it combat and non-combat, but urgent.
a necro, on the other hand, could plausibly have a rez since raising the dead is kind of their thing, but to restore life is probably a very high-end, difficult to obtain, and expensive spell. especially, if it's usable in combat. I would expect there to be a sacrifice component as well. Transferring life from a living being into the fallen comrade in order to restore the essence and heal the body would be an interesting and justifiable requirement. allowing players to roleplay their necro the way they want, i'd suggest being able to take it from an enemy for the more selfish necro, or from themselves for the more altruistic player. taking from a group mate makes sense, but the mechanics would be difficult because no one wants to have players have power over other players like that.
To be honest, I can see a necro having combat rez before a druid. I'm not sure what the justification would be for a druid to rez besides 'healers get rez'. clerics and shamans make sense, they deal with the spirits/souls.
definitely not every class!
Remember that EQ gave Necros a form of rez. It was typically used after a total raid wipe to get a cleric back up. I never felt it was OP in any way. WoW also let you engineer a rez device. IIRC, it was limited, but I don't remember what that was -- long cooldown, maybe.
Like most of the other people posting, I don't want to see to much melding of classes, although ultimately it comes down to the true nature of the game. Until we start playing (and raiding) we don't know what sort of requirements we're going to feel we need to be successful. There may be very good reasons why there should be a potion of resurrection.
Only the Cleric, Druid, and Shaman should have the ability to resurrect. Lore aside, it's something that the priest archetype should have. I don't think anyone else should get it, as much as I love the idea of a Bard singing a person back to life or a Necromancer doin' their creepy thing. The priests are the only ones that should be able to res, it's a part of the archetype identity.
Now... having something like a soul gem that a class can create and give where on death you can use it to self res? That's something I would be open to considering, depending on how it's implemented and who can make them.
WolfySins said:Remember that EQ gave Necros a form of rez. It was typically used after a total raid wipe to get a cleric back up. I never felt it was OP in any way.
As many people on these forums and various Pantheon Discords just love to point out: "Just because EQ1 did it doesn't mean it was a good idea." And here, I'm in complete agreement. Resurrection should be the sole perview of the Priest Archetype. Period.
Vandraad said:As many people on these forums and various Pantheon Discords just love to point out: "Just because EQ1 did it doesn't mean it was a good idea." And here, I'm in complete agreement. Resurrection should be the sole perview of the Priest Archetype. Period.
Exactly! I never liked the idea of Necromancers having res anyway. Despite what everyone keeps saying, it is not thematically or lore appropriate. Necromancers raise the dead, sure, but they make undead when they do it. That's the whole shtick. If anything, Necros should have the ability to raise dead party members as temporary pets, but not back to living breathing people. That's just not what they do.
I think that all healers should have the ability to Resurrect. It should be a class ability. And all healers should be able to res in combat as well.
However, it would be a great idea if there was a "spell/potion" that could also give a non-healer the ability to resurrect in a non-combat situation only. This potion would be hard to make, and would be very special. Also limit the quantity to one only being held. Also put some of the ingredients behind a time-gated crafting system.
Koala said:However, it would be a great idea if there was a "spell/potion" that could also give a non-healer the ability to resurrect in a non-combat situation only. This potion would be hard to make, and would be very special. Also limit the quantity to one only being held. Also put some of the ingredients behind a time-gated crafting system.
Here's my thinking about that. Something similar to how soulstones worked in WoW. A single use item that the one carrying may choose to use to get a self-res if they die. In this case though, it would be like so: whatever caster creates the thing, they can only create one at a time. And while the soulstone is active, the caster's maximum mana pool is lessened temporarily. Exact numbers are pointless to speculate on, but the principle is the thing. Whether it's maximum mana pool, or perhaps a lessening of whatever relevant stats that could see a similar effect of lessening that caster's power in trade for this boon.
This very much seems like it should be necromantic in nature, but it wouldn't necessarily have to be the necromancer. I just don't have the terminology to fit it to other classes. Maybe an "crystallized echo" or something for a bard, or a "spirit catcher" that a summoner would create. I can't think of more names off the top of my head, but you get the gist, I trust.
The importance of this, though, would be to make it equally rare as resurection. Flexing into this form of utility would make the casting class significantly less effective at doing their primary role, which fits into the philosphy they've talked about for classes flexing into different Roles. Something like this, I think, would be an acceptable feature. But the idea of giving every class in Creation a res of some sort is, frankly, ridiculous to me. This game is supposed to focus on class identity and interdependancy. Giving everyone a res of some sort is a step towards the kind of "everyone do everything" convenience that they are explicitely trying to avoid.
Koala said:However, it would be a great idea if there was a "spell/potion" that could also give a non-healer the ability to resurrect in a non-combat situation only. This potion would be hard to make, and would be very special. Also limit the quantity to one only being held. Also put some of the ingredients behind a time-gated crafting system.
A good idea, on paper, but as it has been proven across any number of MMOs, what developers think will make something 'hard to make, hard to get, rare, etc' never ever remains that way for very long. Sooner than later, such things will be commonplace and even the poorest player will have them available for cheap.
Any top end PvP game should not allow easy resurections. Balance, you know.
What you say? Someone set up us the PvE?
@Jothany - I guess I don't mind healers sharing rez with one or two other classes without it affecting my core identity as a healer. I think healing is too critical in a group focused game for something like that to unbalance us. Although I also believe a healer can't fully fulfil their role without the ability so it is integral in a way. I do want to reiterate that I envision a very very limited number of DPS classes with rez. Maybe one at release.
@Balanz - @Iksar linked the description about paladins sacrificing health to rez. The skill is currently called Atone which goes along with the idea as well.
@Jobeson - The lore is controlled by VR so they can make it work. I do really like your idea of a necro rez that only works within 1 minute of death. I'm sure there are many other interesting limitations that could be placed as well.
@dorotea - How would you want to see it limited?
@StoneFish - I would've guessed a defribrillator to be more a paladin's style.
@Manouk - Thank you for that flex roles link! I will be reading through it shortly. I think they've already talked about hybrid penalities (or at least that's how I viewed it) during one of the gameplay sessions. They mentioned the flex can be maintained at the detriment of the primary role and maybe not indefinitely.
@Leevolen - I'm definitely against having items that rez. If they are implemented, then I would want them restricted to only be useable by classes with a rez skill already. Have it be a bonus rez or add to the ability in some way. Has any game had regular mobs that rez their fallen allies? That sounds scary in a game like Pantheon!
@Kilsin - Thank you for the promotion! I'm honored.
@FatedEmperor - Receiving the skill at higher levels for non-healers is perfectly reasonable. Have them available when we're up against the really tough dispositions and mobs. As for homogenization, I believe there's a big difference between that and a class's ability to perform it's job. Rez'ing is still a big expectation of healers just like a DPS with lots of utility should still pump out decent damage. That might be a different conversation though.
@Mjolnir001 - Do you only play classes whose skills are all explained by lore? I know people have different criterion for the classes they play. Especially those who like to roleplay their characters.
@WolfySins - I didn't play EQ in the early 2000's but I think even making the resource cost for the non-healers to be very impactful to their primary role would be a good limitation.
@TheWingless - According to the class pages, paladin can also resurrect so that mold is already broken. As much as I loved my warlock in WoW, I'm not a fan of the soul gem idea. Takes the skill out of using a rez during combat.
@Grymmlocke - Any particular reason for that?
@Vandraad - As someone who didn't really play EQ1, I'm fine with Pantheon departing from their norms as long as VR sticks to their tenents.
It's super interesting to me that people are so focused on the lore behind a class having resurrection when I haven't seen other class skills questioned (I'm also fairly new to these forums). Why can't wizards in Terminus use earth and wind element spells? Why aren't shamans more ritual and curse based? Their current abilities are taken as a fact of the world of Terminus and it's laws, which is how I look at it to be honest.
TheWingless said:Vandraad said:As many people on these forums and various Pantheon Discords just love to point out: "Just because EQ1 did it doesn't mean it was a good idea." And here, I'm in complete agreement. Resurrection should be the sole perview of the Priest Archetype. Period.
Exactly! I never liked the idea of Necromancers having res anyway. Despite what everyone keeps saying, it is not thematically or lore appropriate. Necromancers raise the dead, sure, but they make undead when they do it. That's the whole shtick. If anything, Necros should have the ability to raise dead party members as temporary pets, but not back to living breathing people. That's just not what they do.
"What is a necromancer?" Necromancy is a magic present in many fantasy settings, but within each, it varies considerably. Necromancy to many was merely a form of divination through contact with the souls of the dead. However, as time went on, it became more associated with control of the dead. Nevertheless, not every game or story subscribed to this perception, and instead presented a different view of necromancy. What I present here is the view of necromancy that informed many of the early design decisions in EverQuest...
Necromancy is the Arcane Magic of Life. Necromancy is not a magic that is simply about death, or communing with the death, but rather about the uses of life, and by extension, death. In the early lore of EverQuest, it was the gods themselves that created life in the forms of the races of Norrath. Life is something that is inherently divine, something that is natural. Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Shamans, Rangers, all of these access this natural divine magic to create life and heal the wounds of the living.
Necromancy is far from a divine magic. Instead, it is arcane, along with wizards, enchanters, and magicians. Unlike these, however, necromancy seeks to tap into the divine energy of life with arcane magic. Rather than having the power gifted upon you by your loyalty or piety to a deity, necromancers seek to tap the divine without the help of the gods.
But it still is not a divine magic, and as such, it does not create life. Instead the necromancer becomes a conduit of the energy of life, channeling it from some and into others. The necromancer drains the life of his or her enemies, and pours that life into their friends. The necromancer burns away their own flesh, sacrificing their own life for more arcane power, which can then be given to allies, or turned into more powerful spells. The necromancer can sacrifice the weak, and use their entire life's energy to return others to life like a cleric. The Necromancer taps into the powers of the Divine, and does it through arcane means.
The necromancer is, therefore, a very scary thing to many. The power of necromancy is seductive, and has been a tool for many an evil person to enhance their powers. Nevertheless, the magic itself is not inherently evil. The user of the magic may find ways to use the power for evil, and the righteous user may become seduced by the power, as power corrupts... But necromancy is merely a powerful magic. Keep in mind that Miragul, perhaps the most notorious of the classic necromancers, he was a Wizard, Magician, and Enchanter long before a Necromancer. He sought out the power of the Necromancer purely to burn his life into more powerful arcane spells. Miragul was an evil person who used a powerful magic. It is well within the power of the necromancer to transfer their own life into others, and be completely selfless. A necromancer can strike down the evil creatures of the world, much as a wizard does, but rather than wasting the enemy's life, that power can be redirected to cleanse the damage done by that evil creature.
Vandraad said:Koala said:However, it would be a great idea if there was a "spell/potion" that could also give a non-healer the ability to resurrect in a non-combat situation only. This potion would be hard to make, and would be very special. Also limit the quantity to one only being held. Also put some of the ingredients behind a time-gated crafting system.
A good idea, on paper, but as it has been proven across any number of MMOs, what developers think will make something 'hard to make, hard to get, rare, etc' never ever remains that way for very long. Sooner than later, such things will be commonplace and even the poorest player will have them available for cheap.
Feastycentral said:@Leevolen - I'm definitely against having items that rez. If they are implemented, then I would want them restricted to only be useable by classes with a rez skill already. Have it be a bonus rez or add to the ability in some way. Has any game had regular mobs that rez their fallen allies? That sounds scary in a game like Pantheon!
Leevolen said:What about, instead of the item simply being classified as Lore (one per character per use), it was Lore+ (one per account)? Or more rare still, an Artifact (one per server)?
The artifact option...so the one person that got it first and never uses it, prevents the entire server from every getting one. Is that fair? Oh, and for certain that if I were the person to get something like this first, I would totally hold the entire server hostage.
Even if you go with Lore, even one per account, doesn't solve the problem either as you can just collect up all the materials to make lots of them then just quickly make one after you use one.
I can't say I'm a fan of easing the rez restrictions, but I would like to attempt to make a lore-based case for it as it's been discussed by some.
Terminus is in a Frail age. Connections to the deities are weak. As a Paladin, thus a former cleric, and in fact a former cleric who has decided to shed the strictures of priestly life to pursue righteous judgement upon mine enemies, perhaps I am less connected than a priest to the powers that may be developed and honed from a life of assistance, leadership, and light.
Perhaps because of my faith and much from my confident pride, I have found that true power comes from standing as a beacon to others...a bastion against the advance of evil...even until I must sacrifice myself for the greater good, whereupon my faith is at its most glorious, and my power shines...
This is how I can see a paladin perfoming in-combat rez... I like the previously noted ideas of cleric-only rez and sacrificing health (only in the heat of battle however, where it likely is a death sentence without another tank).
Changing roles has its price after all, and the power of life and death must be at the pinnacle of power.
Regarding an item that could provide life or death...I couldn't begin to write the story on that, but what if no one owned it at all? As much as I like the idea of holding the entire server hostage, I could probably be bought.
Just a random thought, but what if a strange being or perhaps temple spawns at a random place and time in any given month where we could be rezzed once per ....a bubble of beneficence in a holy place that if one is lucky enough to be nearby they may be rezzed. It would seem to serve the same purpose as rarity in an item
No thank you. It adds flavour to the game as a whole. You'll be even more on your toes if you run without a healer. And let that be a good (signature) thing for Pantheon.
I do believe we haven't got a sufficient overview of what other classes offer to manipulate combat and its results. So it would be premature to demand for a res skill for all.
The first point would be, why would you attempt something that got you killed? Death is something you'ld want to avoid as is been repeated so many times already.
If everyone carries a res stone/item/spell, then death itself is fastely becoming an inconvenience. A press of the button. A coin drain to recharge your res item.
Let skill of player, and knowledge of the class triumph above the ease by which you can deliver eachother a quick res solution.
Define Pantheon not by the random but by the uniqueness of classes and their distinguished identity.
No, I don't think so. I think just Cleric, Druid and Shaman should have rez spells.
I think their out of combat rezzes should be equal, but I think their in-combat rez or Divine Intervention style abilities should each have class flavour.
Edit: I will add though, the temporary item that healers could give to their party members in EQ2 so they could rezz just the healer in their party out of combat. That might be ok and a healthy balance of limited convenience.
As for the Paladin, I don't think it should have any rez, I think that the Paladin should focus on defensive abilities to keep mobs away from allies rather than being able to ressurect someone they failed to defend.
Taunts, spells and attacks to pull and push mobs away.
Emergency heals like lay hands.
Ability to block melee attacks on allies by absorbing the damage that would hit them; using a shield for full block (and taking 50% damage, 50% negated by the shield) or body-blocking if using a 2H (and taking 100% damage).
Ezrael said:No, I don't think so. I think just Cleric, Druid and Shaman should have rez spells.
I think their out of combat rezzes should be equal, but I think their in-combat rez or Divine Intervention style abilities should each have class flavour.
Edit: I will add though, the temporary item that healers could give to their party members in EQ2 so they could rezz just the healer in their party out of combat. That might be ok and a healthy balance of limited convenience.
As for the Paladin, I don't think it should have any rez, I think that the Paladin should focus on defensive abilities to keep mobs away from allies rather than being able to ressurect someone they failed to defend.
Taunts, spells and attacks to pull and push mobs away.
Emergency heals like lay hands.
Ability to block melee attacks on allies by absorbing the damage that would hit them; using a shield for full block (and taking 50% damage, 50% negated by the shield) or body-blocking if using a 2H (and taking 100% damage).
Paladin already has a rez which makes sense given they're former clerics according to lore. And I do like the flavor of the Paladin's rez.
Atone- Sacrifice half of your health to resurrect a fallen ally. Using this ability when below half health will cause the Overzealous state, obstructing all healing on you while active.
I'm fine with this available in-combat since it's such a high risk ability.