Never gonna get rid of it, thanks to the anonymity of the interwebs people range from the assholeiest of assholes to the frailist of snowflakes. Some folks are just gonna be mean anyway they can, and then some folks are gonna just look for things to be offended by and everything in between. You can implement rules and bans and ways to report and all that but the only difference will come down to how much the devs care to take the time to act on and play an active rule to manage this, pretty much if you don't care then why should anyone else.
Bullying and harassment takes many forms. When I first started mmos on a PvP server (not knowing exactly what it was about), I was killed and my corpse was camped by the person who killed me. They just refused to talk and kept killing me as soon as I recovered my corpse. That felt like harassment at the time. I was powerless to stop it and after the 6th or 7th time it ended up with me moving servers. It might have been fun for them, but not for me.
I had an experience where a player sold me an item then wanted it back 5 mins later because she was offered more money for it and gave me a torrent of abuse and even called a DM on me because I refused to give it back to her. Needless to say the DM allowed me to keep it and I used it for a good long while. One off event and never ran into her again.
I havent experience out and out bullying and have not seen it occur. I have had abuse because of game situations usually regarding perceptions of camping "rights" or some such thing. But never an on-going issue and nothing to warrant the involvement of a DM. There is no out and out occasion where I felt prevented from playing because of the actions of another (above that of the PvP player's actions) and have always felt personally safe in game.
Having said that, the ability for DM intervention is, in my view, required. Its always good to get direction from a DM to keep things fun and stops things from descending into personal attacks and the like. This site is a point in fact. Several times people have been asked to refrain from making things personal when views differ, and things do calm down after Kilsin (et al.) step in. I dont think it should be any different when in game. Leave be until a problem arises, then have a DM stop it from escalating and remind all parties that they are in a game. Simples!
If that fails, well.. I would have no issue with offenders being removed from the game.
No, but I have stopped playing games because they became unpleasant enough to not feel like playing them - not over other games, anyway. There don't have to be personal cases of abuse to make somewhere undesirable.
It's like real life. Instances of serious abuse are rare, but if you don't take them seriously and deal with them, they will certainly become less rare and worse.
If a game is known for being lax regarding dealing with problems, then it will attract those that want to misbehave.
Also, if you tolerate less serious, but more common, antisocial behaviour, then it will also make somewhere (game or real life) undesirable.
As for how MMORPGs can improve?
Controversial: A formal, in-game reputation and reporting system. There should be a UI for reporting/ignoring/noting badly behaving characters. The game Customer Services should have access to all the relavent data, even if anonomised.
If CS have access to this data, they can better make judgement over disputes and complaints. If someone gets reported 50 times it can automatically be escalated. If you get involved in a dispute and one side has multiple reports against them for what the dispute is about, you can use that to better inform your resolution action.
Yes, it's open to abuse, but the data can even show that abuse and make *that* actionable. For example, if a guild all /report one character in a coordinated abusive manner, from characters that weren't even present at an incident, say, it will be clear the guild is attempting to get someone in trouble and that guild can be actioned.
Controversial: A Play Nice Policy. VR (and other companies) need to have the guts to use the knowledge and experience they have about problems and issues we all know exist and come up with at least guidance, and in some cases, hard rules, and make them public. When players know how they should behave there will be *less* reports, not more. Most people *want* to behave well, but often, just don't know what is or isn't desirable. Also, you'll get less frivolous reports as people will know whether or not it is actually 'wrong' or 'bad'.
Yes, I know it's a controversial approach, but CS don't have to be strictly *ruled* by it, they will just be better informed.
Controversial: A 'jail' server. If things go badly wrong, transfer players to a 'baddies' server. They can keep playing subs to support development for all of us (especially an improved reputation system!) and abuse each other to their heart's content.
Basically, please, VR, don't just leave it up to 'community policing'. It doesn't work.
I don't think I have ever had this issue in an MMORPG. Sure I have encountered some rude people, but never to the point, I felt unsafe. Typically if I encounter this type of person, I will just leave. I usually play a healer and I understand that there are plenty of other grouping opportunities for me.
Now MoBAs are a different story and I won't even go there.
I don't really think you can fully stop or prevent harassment. I also feel like if someone needs to report someone in an MMORPG, the person they are reporting has probably said something extreme, or is continuing the behavior in an extreme manner. I don't think I have ever reported someone in an MMORPG, I usually just put them on my ignore list and move on.
It has never been a major issue for me. The /ignore feature is there for that purpose. If some oddball keeps following me around and constantly interfering in what I am doing I can log off, switch characters or move to a different area with no way for them to know where I went if I use the /anonymous feature if the game has one.
The only way I can feel "unsafe" is if someone hacks my account which is a totally different issue.
Areas where MMORPG could improve is in public boards shaming and listing bans and punishments. The lists need not include much info, just the name and general violation. Perma BAN--(name) --{repeated vulgar harassment}, or Suspended --(name)--{targeted harassment episode} something along those lines
I think this would serve as (1) a warning to behave and example of punishment. (2) a public list of those that have maturity issues and (3) a public example that the company is actively taking steps to rid these behaviors from the game environment.
The other step I would take would be a contract with the users at account sign up. We all click 'agree' at the terms of service, but we don't read it. A short contract to click agree on that was presented just after the 'terms of service's stating an addition requirement along the lines of
..... Visionary Realms considers the access to the server to be contingent upon the understanding that a purposeful action by the user to disrupt the enjoyment and free operation of intended use of the game environment upon any other user as a financial hardship upon Visionary Realms. Visionary Realms is reserving the right to prosecute users for financial loss ....
In other words if a users actions can be shown to cause another users to leave the game or cancel a subscription then VR can seek damages from the offending account holder.
A log of action with documents from the server (chat/actions) can be used to show the offences.
I haven't done a search about gaming but I do know that if someone crashes their car through a store front, that the store can press for damages and loss of business activities upon the insurance company of the driver. If someone'damages' the revenue of VR by driving subscribers away they should seek compensation. Or at the very least have the users press I agree to a statement that repeatedly witnessed bad behavior in violation of the terms will/can result in a real monetary fine.
Kilsin said:Have you ever felt unsafe or been the victim of online bullying or harassment in an MMORPG? What are your thoughts on how MMORPGs can improve in this area? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
Most harassment/bullying, in previous games, took place through chat. Chat that could be logged, but rarely was. It relied upon the affect persons to have the wherewithall to actually start taking rapid screenshots of the text windows and submit those. That would need to be replaced with some single-button 'record chat' which would include timestamps. The log would need to be stored on the server so that the log could not be edited. The player would be given a 'code' they could put into an email that would point the CS person to the correct file.
These days though? Most bullying will happen through voice comms or will not involve talking at all.
Storage is dead cheap these days. Just log all chat and player locations (at intervals) and delete after a few days.
If you also logplayer health , mana , last action and newest item in inventory this would also act as a tool to detect cheats and build heatmaps for gameplay enhancments.
Then have a very clear ToC and enforce it well.
As others have said, you can never stop abuse or cheating fully... but if you do not enforce it will endup far worse.
Have you ever felt unsafe or been the victim of online bullying or harassment in an MMORPG?
I can not say I've ever felt unsafe, that would require someone to actually have access to me physically. Bullying or harassment? Sure, depending on how it's defined I guess. I'd say I've experienced plenty that someone else would define as bullying and harassment. It has never made me feel unsafe because I do a pretty good job of not letting those encounters get to me.
Times are changing though. What it means to "feel safe" has changed over the years, and I'm not even sure I can totally understand what it even means these days.
I've come across a lot of nasty calling to me but not much anymore. I enjoy the fact people are nicer now a days and it's easier to run content with people. I've found a very nice Guild that I run with and I've been having a lot of fun. Just got drunk a couple days with them and had a blast XD
Before there was alot of awareness I had a situation that freaked me out a bit- this was 2001-2002.
I started playing a spiritual legacy to pantheon MMO and made an avatar close to myself and my interests. I read the manual and the warnings so I took all that to heart and I wanted to "git gud" <-before that was a thing. I was having trouble and mustered up courage to travel to the next town to ask for help and 1 pally replied and we started to chat. I was honest and grateful because I was able to finish the quest. I guess I was too honest because he started as a friend bu then the conversations got progressively more awkward. He thought something was there that I told him was not because its the game world. Then he did that trick where you can find someones IP? on me? and it rattled me a bit and he sid he knew where I lived. I told my mom at the time (I was 16) because it worried me and my mom's BF (still her BF now :)) Asked to log into my account and did things, checked logs, etc. I didnt know those things were saved. He then contacted Customer service because he wanted to move my account under his name and billing instead of me, as another layer so if anyone took more sophisticated measures they would get to him-heh. That took some time but customer service was very understanding. Tbh I didnt want to lose my stuff! lol, what little I had I was like level 7. Then they showed me the tools available like ignore and it wasnt a problem afterwards but they let me know how I could address issues like that going forward. Nice thing? he still pays today! haha. it's a -thing.
I was in another MMO that I left to go back to the spiritual successor to pantheon, because as I got into raiding and socializing in discord, it wasn't the discovery of my gender from my voice that created some interersting interaction against which I could spar- being older- but rather come occasional outbursts, intended to be humerous but created a different atmopshere when my race was discovered through avatar photo's in discord. I liked the vibe and noticed a distinct difference when I entered, it was unsettling, compounded with the news stories over the past 5 years I felt it better to be quiet and faceless for a while and be the character for a bit. *edit* I think I can explain this better. Think of soldier banter on the battlefield or like The character Vasquez, in "Aliens". Under stress, even game stress there is a banter that is fun to be a part of; its inclusive, acerbic yet understood to be non-judgmental. It is understood you lash out unfair judgmental accusations not from preconceived notions but rather from frustration of recent events. Insults, humerous insults usualy that are often retorted and can end up in a giggle-fest. I think thats great! I dont want to ruin that I want to be a part of that! But there is a line that is hard to define that, when crossed by others, makes my friends uncomfortable for my sake and they stammer over the right thing to say in public and I don't like having to put them in that position just because of who I am and it changes our social dynamic and friendship forever.
As far as what MMORPG's can do, I would stress the energy that comes from diversity and a healthy on-line population- the talking outloud, good or bad. I would also stress and define what is and isn't allowed , I mean "hate speech" is very broad so don't use it but say something like as there are different races and beliefs in the real world so are there different races and beliefs in Terminus so watch your language accordingly. As comedian Bill Burr humorizes in an act, racism is quiet. A person will look around see if anyone is near before coming close to you and then whispering their strongly biased point of view to prove their point. Also, I would stress reading the thick manual that comes in the mail upon purchasing the game - ok ok old skool here-at least a mandatory, cannot click through, but have to click that you have read and understand each point powerpoint type agreement. 5 statements should do it. Also in the tutorial point out ignore functions along with opportunities for forgiveness- people can change and if they cannot, they can at least become better players. :)
I've seen bad behavior in MMORPGs, but the great thing about MMOs is that you can choose whom to associate with. When I've been in guilds that I enjoyed; guild leadership was strong and well liked enough to police guild chat and bad guildie behavior. When I've been in guilds where that was not present I have simply left. This is why guilds are so important; it allows people to associate with others who want the same experience. I can see where persistent harrassment or bullying could drive someone to consider leaving their server or even the game; the best way to deal with this is to log chat and have a strong CS team that can intervene where needed.
Some people seem to live for drama. When an incident happens they exacerbate the drama by not walking away from it. I've seen incidents grow way out of hand because everyone piles on and forms factions. In these cases I have had strong guild leadership that stepped in, kicked who needed to be kicked, admonished the rest and people moved on; either that or I moved on.
That said, guilds and the ability to /ignore people you don't like should be enough to avoid many CS tickets.
This topic is absolutely fascinating. It lead me on a path here and there and I found this article to be a very interesting read. Enjoy.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-a-video-game-company-tame-toxic-behavior/
Yeah, in old times when I was way younger and I was still probably a kid we used to call each other that within friends... not much later on in life I learned that the usage of that word was wrong. Amazes me how much in depth immersion into our own language we can get without even realizing it, we hurt other people by calling each other 'real' offensive words like that. We always gotta remember to be choosey about what we say.. because it's wrong. Always maintain your composture because as Human beings we tend to say the wrong thing at times.
Vandraad said:These days though? Most bullying will happen through voice comms or will not involve talking at all.
I think Vandraad hit on the crux of the issue in todays world. It may seem like a no brainer that a company like VR will take a hard stance on harassment, and will have policies and procedures to help them deal with it. Yet how can they deal with the Toxic behavior that will happen using tools outside their control.
We know that using voice chat is always a hotly debated topic. Some players always want to use voice chat with those they play with, and others avoid it like a plague. One of the reasons they avoid it is because of the fear of Toxicity. It can be easy to just gloss over text like 'You suck' or much worse in a text chat channel. But when you hear it in voice chat, it's much more viceral and can cause a lot more of an emotional response for the victim of the abuse. And since Discord and other voice chat tools will be outside of the scope of control for VR, it can be impossible for them to stop any bullying that happens there.
I really feel for VR and their desire to create a safe place for players within their game. When you build a game that is counting on social interactions to drive the experience it really makes it important that they try to make those social interactions positive rather than negative. I just hope that they can find a good way to deal with these kinds of things and it makes sense that this thread exists as VR reaches out for ideas from their players on how to pull it off right.
I just wish I had some good ideas, as I do feel that this topic is very important. While I personally have had life experience that has taught me how to cope with this kind of Toxicity, I know that others may not be as equipped as I am. Props to Kilsin and the people at VR for trying to get ahead of this difficult issue.
StoneFish said:This topic is absolutely fascinating. It lead me on a path here and there and I found this article to be a very interesting read. Enjoy.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-a-video-game-company-tame-toxic-behavior/
It was a good read mate, thanks.
Kilsin said:Have you ever felt unsafe or been the victim of online bullying or harassment in an MMORPG? What are your thoughts on how MMORPGs can improve in this area? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
The problem is that the terms "bullying" and "harassment" can be subjective. Sure, there are the obvious examples, but then there are more subjective ones. ESPECIALLY when you factor in role-playing and cultural differences. I've seen people who have simply complimented someone get accused of harassment. That's not even counting any sort of false accusation specifically designed to cause problems for someone.
Keep in mind tht I am not saying that bullying and harassment don't exist.
We can't control every person's behavior nor prevent all harassment. We can, however, still do two very powerful things:
Most people tend to rise or fall to their perception of what is considered acceptable by the community. Even free, anonymous games can have a mostly good community if it attracts the right people and the right tone is set early on.
Ranarius said:Counterfleche said: We can, however, still do two very powerful things:Good points. I'll add one more very powerful thing we can do.
We can decide how we react to that type of behavior. How much power we allow it to have can effect your numbers 1 and 2.
That's lovely and all, but you can't expect the average Pantheon 12 year old to have much in the way of personal emotional control.
But we can certainly model it.
(and if you really believe it's a 12 year old that you've never met on the other side of the screen, how upset are you willing to get over it?)
I have zero patience and tolerance for trolls and bullies. Also those whose idea of 'fun' is harassing others and being cruel. I'm not talking about a situation where we all have our moments of imperfection. But, intentional and consistent negative actions. I will either leave the area, ignore them or defend those being attacked.
I agree with those who say that we as a community can set the standard for what we accept in Pantheon. I also agree that VR should take a heavy hand to those who violate their TOA on a regular basis. I like the idea that someone suggested of giving players agency in recording chat and sending it a GM or VR just recording chat for a few days to a week and deleting. I also agree with those who say that additional check boxes should be added at the beginning of the game emphasizing VR's stance on this so folks can't feign ignorance when they violate those terms. I have no desire to use voice in Pantheon and have never used voice in any game, so I can't speak on that. That may change, but there are too many reasons for me not to use it than to use it. I have, recently, thought about it because of the streams and how it enhances the gameplay...time will tell.
We have a chance to create a great community here and should take every step possible to make this a community that folks will recommend others join and participate in and nip the toxicity in the bud before it catches hold.