To relate back to the OP: It was a *long* time ago, but when I DMed and a character who was quite pivotal died through some dumb luck I tended to make up something serious, but not death.
One that went well was simply being crippled. There weren't rules for it, but it started a whole new side-quest to get the character healed from what turned out to be not only physical damage, but infection with a magical 'poison'. By the end of that, they decided to live with the wound, because the poison actually had some interesting and useful side effects (his would would 'pain' him such that he could sense similar magics, etc).
Another time the death resulted in a near-death experience that the group all played a part in. An alternate reality that they quite enjoyed, so though in 'real' time it was no time, the idea lasted several sessions. When they were successful in 'saving' their group member they were elated in a way that really brought them together and would not have been possible in a more regular life/death situation.
A corpse run is only a 'punishment' if you don't enjoy the gameplay involved and the gameplay of a corpse run is pretty much the gameplay of the main game, but made more meaningful, challenging and social.
Balanz said:dispolalist wrote:I hope there are some good new 'old school' tabletop RPGs to keep you going, Balanz. Have many folks kept playing the older versions of D&D, do you know?
Almost nobody plays older versions of D&D, as the rules actually suck. We've learned so much since then. Some play 3.X, probably the best version of D&D.
Between D&D, FATE, Burning Wheel, and Blades in the Dark, I have all the rules that I need. Now that I have the time to GM again, what I actually need are players.
We're hijacking the thread a tad, but I accept old rules left much to be desired in some parts, but each DM would just have their own house rules for things like spell slot regeneration (yes, it was so boring for casters to have to re-memorise taking hours between near every fight, but melee characters just swing and swing and swing) and for more realistic and meaningful hit points (I had a 'body points' concept related to the level one hitpoints and certain situations used just those, so you didn't end up bouncing down a cliff and ridiculously surviving).
The thought of using several rulesets to compensate for each others' deficiencies is daunting, but I suppose 'house rules' could get quite demanding to maintain, so.
Well done, for keeping on and making such an effort! Hope you get some players.
I am not so sure the thread is really hijacked. The underlying themes of the thread include what constitutes some of the "old school" features and are they wonderful features that need to be kept or painful and tedious time sinks that we have learned how to greatly improve over the years.
The analogy between saying old D&D and later AD&D rules were terrible and the game sucked until 3.5 and saying old MMOs like EQ and AC and UO and DAOC were terrible and the genre sucked until WoW or EQ2 or SWTOR or LOTRO or GW is obvious.
That later editions made it easier to popularize AD&D and make it less "niche" seems certain. That endless quality of life features and elimination of penalties for dying and so on did the same thing for MMOs seems certain. That "popular" has a distinctly different meaning from "better" seems certain.
There are other parallels as well.
Our understanding of game mechanics has evolved. Rule sets are better designed; that is less haphazard, more structured, and better play tested.
Player communities are taken more seriously. Games are more often designed for a specific audience,. Players are seen as customers, not supplicants at the Throne of the Wise.
New mechanics have evolved, and applied to a greater variety of domains. Rules exist now for things that would never have been considered before.
Some games engage the players in creating lore and story, though no video game can approach FATE CORE in that regard.
Some games force the players to consider the consequences of their actions before engaging in combat by raising the cost of failure, like Burning Wheel, or as Pantheon endeavors to do.
While for the broad swath of players, there is the action simulators featuring consequence free combat, like Dungeons and Dragons, or Black Desert Online.
Looking over the landscape, Pantheon is the MMO most likely to allow me satisfying play.
Vandraad said:Corpse runs also serve a very important function: Clearing out failed groups from an area so another group can move in, taking their place. You can't claim an area if you aren't present! The presence of corpses doesn't count.
That's one of the main driving points for me. I've always assumed this would mainly be a grindy/campy type game to level up and obtain gear (outside of tradeskills and raids) instead of quest driven or "instanced" areas much like current mmo's. There were multiple camps in a given zone or dungeon in EQ ranging from the entrance to particular named mob rooms. The top pick camps were spots where you could find 2-3 named or an area with high mob density where you could clear 12-18 mobs in a 18 min cycle without having to compete with other groups. Corpse runs allowed those prime camps to become free if a group continued to wipe. I believe on my old server you were allowed to pull another camp's named if they wiped; after three wipes another group could move in and take their camp (without having your character put on the server shitlist). This also applied to World Bosses; usually, on just the first wipe.
The other aspect has already been covered quite a bit. It allowed one's self to grow, the run provided time to reflect on what caused the wipe. Wether it was mistiming respawns on a patrol, how to split a paired pull better, or looking at the combat log to see a missed mechanic.
I've had plenty of cringe worthy CR's in my life. The one that always stood out for me was helping a friend's guild trying to do their own corpse run in Plane of Fear when the zone was starting to respawn. Joined and it was another two failed attempts simply due to people logging out because of it being after 1am during a weekday and everyone being naked. I was unable to play my main character for three or four days because of no gear, no access to the zone, and didn't want the corpse timer to dwindle down till their next raid night. Sure I played an alt during that time but there were plenty of things I needed to do on my main. Deaths should never lock you out from playing a character.
Sure these are modern times and one shouldn't have to do a one to two hour CR. Ideally, I'd like to see a central hub where one could bind and it would take 5-30 min to run back to your corpse. Plain of Tranquility would be a perfect example. It was a central hub you could respawn in and buy provisions while having 10 experience grinding zones connected to it. Think VR has done away with loading times/zones but you could still design a central hub in different areas with no more than 30 min for a corpse retrieval.
"Corpse runs also serve a very important function: Clearing out failed groups from an area so another group can move in, taking their place. You can't claim an area if you aren't present! The presence of corpses doesn't count."
If this was true it would be a major benefit to corpse runs. But it is wipes that serve this very important function. Wipes that remove the group from the area of the camp. I heartily agree that a group should not respawn near where it died. That makes death far too easy to live with (chuckles mildly). The respawn point should not be convenient.
But respawning 15 minutes away serves this purpose quite effectively even if the group respawned in their bodies with all of their gear.
For the record I do support corpse runs. They make death less convenient than not having them. They add some uniqueness to the game (compared to most current games). They give memories of EQ, and nostalgia sells. I have advocated to have them optional not mandatory (meaning one can bypass the mechanic by accepting a serious penalty such as loss of a full level or permanent loss of a random piece of equipped gear) but I have come around to the view that they add value and should be in the game whereas originally I was somewhat neutral on this.