Hello all,
People have nostalgia of recovering their bodies, items and experience after biting the big one. It caused people to ask passers-by for help recovering their body, one way to meet a new person.
Unfortunately, corpse runs no longer have a place in modern day MMOs.
Why?
Well, imagine going to the store and buying that installation disc....taking it home....and getting the game into your machine.
That's just it, the vast majority of gaming now is direct download.
Why is that important? Because in the 90s-00s, game development was different. You had to have a completed game before it was released.
You're probably still asking, "What does this have to do with corpse runs?"
Well games received release patches that already existed on the disc, essentially just unlocking what was already there. Any major updates came in expansions.
Still....what does this have to do with corpse runs? Well since it takes years to develop a game a developer had to impliment something that would create content for you as a player to go through.
AKA Corpse Runs, recovering your lost items and experience.
It's a slow-down mechanic meant to give the game shelf life while more new content was developed for expansions.
Why do corpse runs not belong in modern day MMOs? Well, developers are no longer restricted to having a complete game on release. It sucks in most situations I know. We all prefer a complete game.
But the reality is that content can be added on the fly in updates, patches etc...
We have Project Development Cycles in business for the creation of things and can add content much faster than before.
So why do we need corpse runs now?
It's a slowdown mechanic meant to buy developers time and keep players from burning through content.
Now think of the time related to travel. Travel in Pantheon is meant to be purposeful, you gotta run/ride everywhere with the limited potential for short distance ports that're not overly convenient.
Scenario: You're grouping up and killing through a dungeon. Someone needs an afk to load laundry, etc.. etc.. and are gone for 10 minutes and there's a party wipe. Factor in the travel time to the start point, and fighting through 30 minutes to where your corpse is to recover. Early in the night might not be so bad, end of the night it extends your night out another 45 minutes.
We are past discs as a source for games, we don't need an outdated mechanic like corpse runs especially getting caught in situations where people break for the night and just leave.
Impliment a larger experience debt instead.
This argument is valid and commendable in your effort to express yourself clearly. Well done.
The issue presented appears to be convenient gameplay and a continuous forward progression to achieve pleasure and time management. No one actually wants to go on a corpse run if they strongly prefer to be whacking moles and slaying dragons. This is very true and you have placed your argument support on the current state of content delivery being so easy.
The trouble is the assumption that the corpse run is primarily and singularly used as a slow down mechanic. This is a benefit clear to understand in the past and the benefit is no longer beneficial with the current Internet. But the corpse run is not JUST a slow down mechanic. It is a detrimental tasks by design.
The risk is the time lost, the risk is the item lost, the risk is the experience loss. The risk is the bitter that highlights the sweet. The sweet reward for not dieing. The reward for not failing to support and plan and prepare for a battle, a dungeon raid or a trip to gather mushrooms in an inhospitable area.
The risk is a good thing. There are other risks and there are other challenges but the corpse run is unique. It is the ultimate threat to failure as you loose so much from a wipe or lone death.
The casual nature of play is not the only style, you know this, some will want to have an easy session and some will want to go poke a bear in the butt with a dull rusty dagger. Your choice of playing it safe or taking a risk will strongly influence the reward you feel at the end of your journey.
On a personal note,: If players randomly go AFK whenever and leave the group I'll not play with them. Imagine playing a game of basketball and one player just stops and goes across the street to get a hotdog while you're in the middle of a game. What the hell dude! Not cool.
But if before the game they told us that the game could stop at anyone's request to go get hotdogs then fine we all agreed and can plan for it.
Planning and preparation and cooperation is key to a social online/any game.
Again your argument is valid but falls short of considering all the benefits to the corpse run. The primary benefit being the risk vs reward. Even modifications to the risk factors of dieing is difficult because eliminate the run and you take a task away. This task of going to get your corpse again encompasses many factors. One of those factors is the experience of going back with your group to get your bodies. It's a shared challenge that brings people together. We together suffer or succeed and are rewarded with a chemical change in our brain that makes us fall in love with each other. And I do want you and I to love each other because then I can ask you for a loan of 50 bucks and forget to pay you back but you'll forgive me the debt because you love me.
StoneFish said:The trouble is the assumption that the corpse run is primarily and singularly used as a slow down mechanic. This is a benefit clear to understand in the past and the benefit is no longer beneficial with the current Internet. But the corpse run is not JUST a slow down mechanic. It is a detrimental tasks by design.
The risk is the time lost, the risk is the item lost, the risk is the experience loss. The risk is the bitter that highlights the sweet. The sweet reward for not dieing. The reward for not failing to support and plan and prepare for a battle, a dungeon raid or a trip to gather mushrooms in an inhospitable area.
The risk is a good thing. There are other risks and there are other challenges but the corpse run is unique. It is the ultimate threat to failure as you loose so much from a wipe or lone death.
The casual nature of play is not the only style, you know this, some will want to have an easy session and some will want to go poke a bear in the butt with a dull rusty dagger. Your choice of playing it safe or taking a risk will strongly influence the reward you feel at the end of your journey.
Nail on the head. Corpse runs are so much more than a delaying tactic. They are a part of the risk vs. reward calculations we are meant to do.
StoneFish said:On a personal note,: If players randomly go AFK whenever and leave the group I'll not play with them. Imagine playing a game of basketball and one player just stops and goes across the street to get a hotdog while you're in the middle of a game. What the hell dude! Not cool.
But if before the game they told us that the game could stop at anyone's request to go get hotdogs then fine we all agreed and can plan for it.
Planning and preparation and cooperation is key to a social online/any game.
Agree very hard. I get real life calls, but when I'm using my limited time to try to do a thing, I want to be with people of similar focus.
On face value I thought relating a corpse run to an intended time-sink mechanic was very broad. But continuing to broaden that outlook I saw how nostalgia and other things that were so impactful and created powerful memories at first later became a nuisance and spurred on various QoL features. Coincidentally it is these QoL features that are enjoyed by many who are adamant to relive those painful memories through others but I fear will quickly become incensed again and yearn for similar QoL features to be introduced.
As far as corpse runs go, I think the fear of it as a game mechanic was intended to provide thrill, heightened awareness and danger instead of a time sink. Players could use is as a gauge of playerability where one group would wipe in a certain area and others would not.
The only times a corpse run was a problem? was when I knew, when we knew, we were biting off more than we could chew and we went ahead anyway in a group setting. In a multi-group/ raid setting corpse runs and rebuffing takes on a different dynamic because of the inate impatience of the masses. so I think a difference needs to be made.
what do you propose as an alternate mechanic outside of corpse run to provide the same kind of thrill/anticipation/fear some have equated to Dark Souls?
Manouk said:what do you propose as an alternate mechanic outside of corpse run to provide the same kind of thrill/anticipation/fear some have equated to Dark Souls?
I played EQOA for years, and there were no corpse runs. However there was rez/death sickness, lost experience.
I feel that percentage of level in experience debt would be enough of a deterant.
If for example it takes 3 million experience to gain a level, and for each death you acquire 10% exp debt, that is 300K debt.
If a single kill of your equivalent leveling area gives between 900-1200 xp that would be a significant deterrant but no need to recover a body.
Meaning you don't need to spend an extra 45 min (arbitrary #) recovering at the end of your night when you have work in the morning.
If you die twice....it's starting to stack up.
Alternatively, increase the current experience debt in Pantheon but inject a Gravedigger NPC you can speak to in town to recover your lost body after an hour.
That way you're not stuck doing corpse runs all the time, and the people like me who look down upon the corpse run mechanic can recover at a later time.
I know there are people that like this mechanic, but there are a lot of people who don't as well and it's about a happy medium where death is punishing but not going to ruin your night.
It's funny, I never thought of corpse runs as a "slow down mechanic".
I mean, it obviously IS, but I never thought of it that way. I always saw it as a "well, I don't want to do this again, so I guess we'd better play better/smarter/safer". I saw it as a stick I didn't want to get hit with again.
I played a rogue in EQ. And I was in the top guild on the server. Had a lot of wipes learning new content. So, if you're familiar with that game, you know that made me somewhat intimately familiar with corpse runs. I can't tell you how many times I had to say "Consent please".
But, if I'm being honest with myself... I kinda liked doing it. It was always nice to be able to demonstrably help out your friends/guild/strangers. You felt useful. Needed. And people were generally thankful, if a little slow sometimes with the /consent button. I made some good friends and had some hilarious stories because of corpse runs. Some of my fondest memories are those times.
Additionally, the corpse run served another purpose. As an open world game, there were frequently multiple guilds going after the same content. The corpse run and recovery after a wipe allowed everyone to get a shot at the mob should their predecesor wipe. Additionally, at least on my server, we would help the guild that went before us get their bodies back, so they could take the next shot should we fail. It helped foment some genuine amicable relationships with other guilds, which went a long way towards avoiding the nasty train wars that seemed part and parcel with high end raids.
I don't know, just food for thought.
~Hiwin
Cryptfox said: I know there are people that like this mechanic, but there are a lot of people who don't as well and it's about a happy medium where death is punishing but not going to ruin your night.
I agree, this is absolutely the crux of the issue.
If I was asked to describe in one sentence the single biggest mechanic of MMOs in general, my answer would be "Earning experience points". I make this point to explain why, for ME, an experience debt is pretty close to meaningless. If I don't like the combat, I likely won't play a game very long. If I do, then the numbers in my XP bar are insignificant. If they go down due to a death, who cares? I'll earn more the next time I log on.
Alternatively, finding cool stuff, humorous stuff, highly valuable stuff, awesomely powerful stuff, new KINDS of stuff is one of the most exciting parts of the game for me. So as you might expect, dropping a pack full of that stuff is a big, if not THE biggest, part of Death. I believe that the amount of xp loss required to replace loss of stuff on my corpse as a meaningful death penalty would be unduly burdensome to many other players.
Also, though I could be wrong, I get the sense that corpses will last a fairly long time in Pantheon. (at least if Roenick has anything to say about it) With VR's priority of building the game for players with limited playtime available, I don't expect us to be dealing with corpses decaying in hours. I honestly expect it to be more like weeks than days.
edit: I wrote the following before I saw vthorm's reply above. Very similar perspectives.
As far as a death ruining your night because you are time limited, I would offer this advice for whatever it's worth. The more friends you have, the less chance of that happening. Pantheon particularly appeals to older players like me. Many who are old enough to be retired and ingame a lot, most days (like me). For myself and many others here, if some friend (or even a polite stranger) asks for help with a corpse recovery, I'm almost always going to help. One ingame friend who is 10 levels higher is likely all anyone will need to make most corpse recoveries fairly straightforward. Social gaming for the win.
StoneFish said:The trouble is the assumption that the corpse run is primarily and singularly used as a slow down mechanic. This is a benefit clear to understand in the past and the benefit is no longer beneficial with the current Internet. But the corpse run is not JUST a slow down mechanic. It is a detrimental tasks by design.
The risk is the time lost, the risk is the item lost, the risk is the experience loss. The risk is the bitter that highlights the sweet. The sweet reward for not dieing. The reward for not failing to support and plan and prepare for a battle, a dungeon raid or a trip to gather mushrooms in an inhospitable area.
The risk is a good thing. There are other risks and there are other challenges but the corpse run is unique. It is the ultimate threat to failure as you loose so much from a wipe or lone death.
This is pretty spot on. It's a great time for reflection and to break things up and make the game feel/play a little different. One of the only "pain" points or real parts of the game where risk exists and any sense of punishment is present. The game can't be all gas and no breaks all the time, all pleasure and no discomfort.
Cryptfox said:I know there are people that like this mechanic, but there are a lot of people who don't as well and it's about a happy medium where death is punishing but not going to ruin your night.
This is already an attempt to meet in the middle, a concession to naked death runs of the past.
IIRC there isn't any planned item loss so one doesn't need to extend their night any longer than they want to. They can log in the next day and work on getting their corpse, whether that is getting another group in the same area or using some other means like invis to make it to the corpse and get the inventory.
Nah, the corpse run is not just a time sink. I highly doubt it was ever developed for that purpose, either.
Ironically the OP seems fine with an XP debt and res sickness, which *is* pretty much just a time sink punishment, except, of course, that you can do anything you want to recover from the death. Sounds great, right? Except that for players that expect and want to play for hours with no particular speed targets for leveling, it has almost no impact or meaning and certainly no fear or excitement. "Oh, I died. I'll go do something else/easier".
I use words like "meaning", "impact", "fear" and "excitement" because these emotive aspects are what corps runs give over simple XP punishment (though let's not forget, corpse runs don't mean you *can't* have XP debt and res sickness too!).
Meaning
Often more interdependency with other players is needed to help you recover your corpse. In the case of a group wipe, you will all be even closer 'bound' in the attempt to get back to where you were and do better this time.
Sometimes you will need help from people outside the group. Buffs and assistance to get you through what killed you before.
No corpse run = failed group may as well just split up and all go do something else.
Another meaning to corpse runs is the way it effects your general play: You have to consider not just what you fight, but where you fight (in case it's where you die). It makes travel feel more dangerous, in case you stray somewhere hard to get back to on death. It means you have to make hard choices if you think you're going to die: Do you run and try and escape, but maybe get deeper in trouble, or try and get to a safer place for your corpse.
Impact
As mentioned above, if you have no corpse run after you die, you can go do anything you want. It has had no impact except to delay leveling and, assuming players actually enjoy playing the game and there's plenty of at-level content, taking a bit longer to level is really no impact at all.
The impact of having to get back to your corpse is much more than the time it takes to run there. It is the multi-faceted challenge of travelling/fighting your way back to the, no doubt dangerous, place you just died.
Fear
There is no fear to XP debt. Mild annoyance at best. Why would you want to fear death? Because with out fear there is no excitement. I'd rather have something approaching genuine fear of being killed in an encounter than the feeling of trying to avoid the mild annoyance of failing a fight.
Why do corse runs engender fear? Because they aren't just 'runs'. They are the need to return and defeat that which just killed you, or die again. And again, maybe. They are the horrific, if remote, possibility of losing items that are on your corpse. They are potentially complex and challenging (and so, ultimately rewarding) exercises that push us to use many combined skills to succeed.
Excitement
As I just described, excitement is the other side of the coin from Fear. Without fear, or something approximating it, there is no exitement.
TL;DR:
There are many meaningful reasons for corpse runs in addition to XP debt and res sickness. It adds many more aspects than a time consuming 'run' to the game.
vthorm said:I played a rogue in EQ. And I was in the top guild on the server. Had a lot of wipes learning new content. So, if you're familiar with that game, you know that made me somewhat intimately familiar with corpse runs. I can't tell you how many times I had to say "Consent please".
But, if I'm being honest with myself... I kinda liked doing it. It was always nice to be able to demonstrably help out your friends/guild/strangers. You felt useful. Needed. And people were generally thankful, if a little slow sometimes with the /consent button. I made some good friends and had some hilarious stories because of corpse runs. Some of my fondest memories are those times.
As a bard, I had a similar experiences. In large open zones, I could easily point my way with the corpse finding song, and speed through anything I needed to to retrieve a corpse. In dungeons, invis song and/or strategic lulling was the name of the game. It was a different element of play, and very fun. Plus like you say, I felt useful and needed, and I made friends!
Iksar said:Cryptfox said:I know there are people that like this mechanic, but there are a lot of people who don't as well and it's about a happy medium where death is punishing but not going to ruin your night.
This is already an attempt to meet in the middle, a concession to naked death runs of the past.
IIRC there isn't any planned item loss so one doesn't need to extend their night any longer than they want to. They can log in the next day and work on getting their corpse, whether that is getting another group in the same area or using some other means like invis to make it to the corpse and get the inventory.
This is true. As far as many here are concerned, VR have already compromised the corpse run concept in quite a fundamental way. They did promise, I think, to see how it pans out in testing, though.
Personally I'm in the middle. Naked corpse runs could seem excessively harsh as sometimes they would effectively make a player fight what had just killed them, only naked hehe.
But the whole point is to add something like genuine fear (and, thus, excitement) to fights. Having to simply 'get back there and try again' doesn't seem enough of a challenge to instill 'fear' to me.
After all there were, and would be, many ways to mitigate 'naked' corpse runs: Spare gear in the bank. Actually talking to people and asking for help. Just not being so careless the next time? Hehe.
There always will be some aspects that some people don't enjoy and others do. Corpse runs, though, are mischaracterised and misrepresented enough that I think a lot of players *think* they don't like them and when they are gone, and players aren't finding challenging encounters and travel as exciting, they just don't even think of 'corpse runs' as part of the reason. They were just 'bad' yeah? *sigh*
For me, corpse runs as part of death penalty are one of those fundamental things that modern MMORPGs have diluted to the overall detriment of the genre. One of those things that VR is bringing back because they know it adds meaning and depth.
It's not about nostalgia, either, for all the meaningful reasons I've given previously. It's about putting mechanics back in that add challenge. It's about challenge going beyond (and before) combat encounters.
For me personally, corpse runs don't even enstill fear of death.
Deposit what you don't wanna lose in the bank and go out and do things.
If you find an item that is better, put it on. If you die and don't recover what you took off, no big deal cus you have something better.
If you find something nice you can't wear yet cus you're underleveled and you die, no big deal cus you couldn't wear it anyway and go do more stuff and you'll find something else.
That's honestly how I feel about it.
I hate wasting time. One of my biggest pet peeves.
Last thing I want to do is being obligated to go back to somewhere to recover a body, and then die again.
It can happen, especially with the tactical based combat we'll be doing.
It'll get annoying, so I will just not keep on me things that I can't stand to lose.
You do realize that, currently, when you die, you keep all the stuff you were wearing/wielding? Only your inventory and money is left on your corpse? That's barely a penalty for dying even when combined with XP loss and a item durability hit. Oh, and if you don't want to go get your corpse back, find someone to summon your corpse (if that ends up being a thing) and be done. If we left everything on our corpses there might be point, but clearly that's too difficult for today's whiny-baby players so VR took the easy road.
Vandraad said:You do realize that, currently, when you die, you keep all the stuff you were wearing/wielding? Only your inventory and money is left on your corpse? That's barely a penalty for dying even when combined with XP loss and a item durability hit. Oh, and if you don't want to go get your corpse back, find someone to summon your corpse (if that ends up being a thing) and be done. If we left everything on our corpses there might be point, but clearly that's too difficult for today's whiny-baby players so VR took the easy road.
That operates under the faulty assumption that people won't be carrying bags (possibly rare/magic weight reduction bags), keys, potions, artifacts, alternate weapons/armor, ammo, clicky items, or whatever else. That rare/valuable items won't commonly be (needed or otherwise) in one's inventory.
This easy road nonsense is ignorant. As if corpse runs were even difficult or really punishing 95%+ of the time in EQ, especially as servers aged and 96% rez was laughably easy to come by.
Iksar said:Vandraad said:You do realize that, currently, when you die, you keep all the stuff you were wearing/wielding? Only your inventory and money is left on your corpse? That's barely a penalty for dying even when combined with XP loss and a item durability hit. Oh, and if you don't want to go get your corpse back, find someone to summon your corpse (if that ends up being a thing) and be done. If we left everything on our corpses there might be point, but clearly that's too difficult for today's whiny-baby players so VR took the easy road.
That operates under the faulty assumption that people won't be carrying bags (possibly rare/magic weight reduction bags), keys, potions, artifacts, alternate weapons/armor, ammo, clicky items, or whatever else. That rare/valuable items won't commonly be (needed or otherwise) in one's inventory.
This easy road nonsense is ignorant. As if corpse runs were even difficult or really punishing 95%+ of the time in EQ, especially as servers aged and 96% rez was laughably easy to come by.
Hence the 'might be a point'. Yes, once necro corpse summons were stupidly easy to get, once 96% rezzes were everywhere, once the graveyard mechanic came in, etc, etc, etc then the difficulty of a corpse run did indeed plummet. But until then? Yeah, you'd see people really struggle on a corpse run and, depending upon location, could easily take upwards of an hour to complete..and that was just for group content. Raids could see corpse recoveries take multiple hours depending upon location.
So yes, VR will take the easy road to corpse recovery because they don't want to alienate too much of the potential playerbase who couldn't comprehend such a scenario.
Painful/punishing corpse runs were extremely rare. There were very few zones you couldn't just grab an invis and get your corpse, and casters could bind outside dungeons making their corpse runs less than a few minutes. Could often have an entire groups corpses dragged to the zone before melee got there.
I never really played EQ1, I started my MMO experience with FFXI; so I didnt know quite what to think about corpse runs.
However I'm playing Elden Ring at the moment - so fair to say I've had ..erm.. a few.. corpse runs - only just now I lost 90k runes before quitting for the night (that's not an insignificant loss). This is my first 'souls' game and it took me a little while to get used to both the idea of corpse running and also to having to do it really quite often!
Reaction to this of an average MMO 'serious;' gamer is to lose their sense of humour and become a bit of a drag to spend time with. In my past MMO experience I've typically been about 40% that way. Strangely with this game, instead of becoming ever more of a pain I've found myself developing more of a sense of humour about the whole thing. A bit like some of the streamers you can see in the myriad 'Elden Ring fails' videos on Youtube. My emotional process goes from 'Oh God-Damn it' to 'oh well, lol' quite quickly. This has surprised me, espeically as I remember picking up Dark Souls 3, dying about 10 times on the first boss and then just giving up (I might actually give it another try now).
It helps if there are interesting and glorious ways to die; but I've also been laughing at my stupidity too as I frantically dodge 15 fast consecutive attacks and end up dodging off the edge of the cliff.
And also someone said it earlier in the thread - there aren't many places even in this game which are so hard that you really cant face doing the run. I expect there will be more such occasions in Pantheon because the mobs are tuned to groups rather than solo, but still with the awesome community here that everyone keeps going on about but I'll believe when I see, I'm sure there will be many people coming to everyones' aid! :)
Plug - Elden ring is a great game btw, tons of fun. I now have a lvl 150 'mage' which is still dying in silly and unexpected ways. Lots of ideas there that would be killer in an MMO - my favourite so far is a wonderfully original idea in the Carian Study Hall 'dungeon' - a place where once you've done it you then turn it upside down and do it again - actually as in you enter on the ceiling, which is now the floor. Freaky. Pantheon could pinch quite a few ideas and concepts from that game, to great effect.
Cryptfox said:I hate wasting time. One of my biggest pet peeves.
But you'd rather have XP debt - a straight time 'cost' - than a corspe run - a meaningful challenge?
Cryptfox said:It'll get annoying, so I will just not keep on me things that I can't stand to lose.
So, instead of a corpse run, you'd like to make a run to the bank every time you loot something you don't want to risk losing? (And even old or non-usable items have sale value, and time is money, even in MMORPGs. Wasting money = wasting time).
Players won't do that.
They, instead, will hold out as long as possible and with every thing looted will *fear* death more and more until, eventually, they will bank their items or they will die and have to do a corpse run.
And even if you're ok banking regularly, there will always be items - consumables and the like - that you don't want to lose, but *need* to carry in order to survive.
If things are easy, enjoyment is less. If there is no or little meaningful penalty, then there is no jeopardy and little elation when a task is overcome. Drudgery ensues.
Cryptfox: Unfortunately, corpse runs no longer have a place in modern day MMOs.
This is a point of view and not a reason to exclude corpse runs from a game. It comes down to how systems are implemented, not whether they should exist. If it is done well, then they indeed have a place in any mmo, if they are done badly, then that implementation shouldnt be in a game.
Dying has to be meaningful and not easy to recover from, else whats the point. Role playing games are not just about killing everything in sight as quickly as you can. If you fail, then I dont think you should expect to easily pick up from where you left off. I have no problem with meaningful and impactful penalties. They addjeopardy, excitement and add to the emotion when you claim your reward from a difficult task.
The real question is whether a corpse run can be implemented that is difficult to overcome and still be fun and achievable. As others point out, you will still have all of the equipment you are wearing and in hand, so you are not defenceless. However, as this game is biased heavily in favour of group activities, then it will be a difficult challenge to get back to where you are (especially at the centre of a dungeon). Certain classes will be more adept at making it over others. You may need help from the party. It may well take time to recover, but that is not the point.
A fresh look of how the death penalty works is welcomed, but, until it is experienced in game, then assumptions about how it will be implemented are meaningless. Discounting it out of hand is, at best, short sighted, though.
It's about real risk vs reward and consequences of choices, action vs inaction.
Experience debt is simply a time sink, it just means you personally now need to take extra time to gain more experience to get back to where you were, that experience you need to gain can come from anywhere, including very easy areas or tasks.
Recovering a corpse from the place where you died is real risk, it likely cannot be accomplished alone, it likely requires teamwork, proper effort to adventure against the elements and the world in order to recover what was lost.
It's an actual risk to offset the potential rewards.
It promotes all of the tenants that will make this game great, instead of casual conveniences that have ruined so many MMOs and turned them into simple solo affairs.