Forums » Crafting

Discussion: How do you feel about bulk production in crafting?

    • 2001 posts
    March 13, 2022 9:38 AM PDT

    Barin999 said:

    When you outlevel a combine, instead of allowing crafters to bulk craft with no xp. Allow those players to trade in X amount of resources at an npc for a no-trade combine return.

    By allowing bulk craft you undermine the value of starting players and their period of crafting lower combines where they get xp for and possibly get some coin or work orders for it from other players.

    Maybe I'm missing something. Would not it serve the same purpose to just make all bulk crafting products no trade? If it does, then not having to leave your crafting area to go talk to an NPC is less hassle to me.

    I really DO like the idea of making all bulk-crafted products no-trade, to keep them from affecting the market.

    • 847 posts
    April 12, 2022 10:31 AM PDT

    Jothany said:

    Barin999 said:

    When you outlevel a combine, instead of allowing crafters to bulk craft with no xp. Allow those players to trade in X amount of resources at an npc for a no-trade combine return.

    By allowing bulk craft you undermine the value of starting players and their period of crafting lower combines where they get xp for and possibly get some coin or work orders for it from other players.

    Maybe I'm missing something. Would not it serve the same purpose to just make all bulk crafting products no trade? If it does, then not having to leave your crafting area to go talk to an NPC is less hassle to me.

    I really DO like the idea of making all bulk-crafted products no-trade, to keep them from affecting the market.

    There might be a small glitch in that, in the case of shared bank space with multiple characters on the same server. But that's another discussion.  

    Also, if you allow players to bulk craft, you have opened a door to swift craft complains (wanting to decrease time spent / (bulk) craft), due to the grind of bulkproduction, especially if that's without xp gain. One can still purchase bulk resources (take out goods from the economy) or harvest them in the world (stimulate world activity). Bulk resources should not be bought from npc's ofc. But to stay on point, if that player can hand in all those resources and get the no-trade combine, you've answered several issues.  1: get objects out of the game, 2: conversion sink applied, 3: stimulating durable economy, 4: mitigated the grind feeling of bulk crafting, 5: maintaining lower level content value/meaningfulness,..forgetting several others. If you allow a player to craft 100xx of lvl 1 arrows. What value does a new player bring to the table? 

    If storage would have its limitations, stocking up resources might be more valuable compared to stocking up on bulk crafts that are no-trade. 

    One of the reasons that bulk craft is or would be thing, is because people need lots of something. But they do not enjoy the prospect of crafting 100xx's of the same thing over and over again.  The number of locations where all this will occur, is at 1-2 locations. Namely: the workstation and the vendor npc.  This is in the scenario that you allow bulk crafting in the game.   Now if you compare that to trading bulk resources for a no trade combine.  You've skipped the repetitive bulk production step, but time spent outside in the world to obtain the resources has remained or even increased.  In short: you really haven't lost much of "enjoyable content/play time" by trying this other approach.

    If the number of locations required for all those 100xx's of combines is more than 2, say 4-6, people would stagger even more. So the benefit have 'stimulating' people to move around the world to craft these numbers of combines, is countered by the dislike of people having to spend even more time to craft in bulk.  (remember, this is bulk crafting, not a single crafting, of which i'm speaking of).

    There just isn't much value of having no-trade bulk items in the game. Let's keep a creative mind and invent/create/find items that cover that bill instead. 

    Side note: requiring a lot of something as a whole should be something to really think about in the first place. Where does it lead to and why is it necessary? In general it's a math game with logarithmic growth. Aka, something that you can testrun intensively prior to launch on a dry statistic program.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at April 12, 2022 10:34 AM PDT
    • 9 posts
    May 11, 2022 7:21 PM PDT

    Jobeson said:

    Bulk production for consumable items is fine. Whether it is instant or on a crafting timer doesn't matter to me.  If a player can reasonably sit down and craft 100 potions with their inventory they shouldn't need to craft them all by clicking a button 100 times or playing 100 mini games.  Repair kits, sharpening stones, basic potions, base materials, are all things that shouldn't make people want to buy a dippy bird.

    The facilities should matter.  Not all crafting locations should be equal.  You shouldn't be curing 100 leathers at a time on a small rack a hunter has outside his tent in the middle of the woods, but given the proper facilities in a city you should be able to mass produce whatever you have. 

    I agree with Jobeson, the mechanics of bulk crafting should be relative to how finite the use of the item is and how sophisticated the crafters "facilities" are. If one weapon is nigh indestructable (in durability) vs. another being flimsy and lasting only a week, the flimsy one should have greater potential for bulk crafting, givin that the facilities have been sufficiently provided for in good reason. Also, I really like the idea of a guild hall being a defacto place of crafting for a guild, its just really cool. 

    • 9 posts
    May 12, 2022 2:30 PM PDT
    I agree with most people that bulk crafting should be limited to processing and refining base crafting ingredients.
    • 1295 posts
    May 13, 2022 7:43 AM PDT

    I agree with those that would like to see it be more "realistic" in that, you could harvest a bunch of wheat and grind a relative (bulk) amount of flour, get a relative amount of bulk milk, salt, yeast, and mix it together in a giant bowl,  but then "depending on your oven size" you could probably only bake 1-6 loaves of bread at a time, and that may be determined by your skill after learning how not to burn a single loaf by monitoring heat and time which wouold differ based on oven size, material, and fuel source of the fire (then for 2 loaves, then 3, etc.)

    Using that same line of thought, a person may be able to mine and then smelt ore in bulk, but no matter how good of a blacksmith they are, they aren't making more than a single piece at a time (even something as small as an arrowhead).  

    With that said, I can appreciate an ability to auto craft once a player has demonstrated a certain level of skill in some trades - i.e. a person in real life kind of goes into autopilot when they are performing repetitious tasks that they are very proficient in (like fletching hundreds of arrows).  The arrows would still be crafted one at a time, but the player's wouldn't have to get carpal tunnel crafting 500 arrows.  As mentioned previously, the more skilled the character is, the faster they can produce a product, and have the material determine the quality and be the factor restricted by skill lelvel.  i.e. if the skill scale were 1-100, the only difference between a person with skill 10 and skill 100 crafting a basic wooden arrow should be the time it takes to craft it, but a player with 10 skill in fletching would not have the skills to craft an arrow out of magnesium with dragonscale fletchings and obsidian arrowheads which could require some level of blacksmithing and leatherworking too... maybe some jewel cutting for the obsidian(?) - those could be trivial individually, requiring low skill levels, but to combine them to create a functioning/balanced arrow would require a high fletching skill.

     

    • 13 posts
    May 14, 2022 7:33 AM PDT

    For me this question largely depends on how the crafting system is set up as a whole and how consumables work.

    If leveling up crafting requires me to make 100 Iron Spears and then 100 Gold Spears, etc, or if the game is like, say, WoW Burning Crusade where players were poppin' Haste Potions every couple minutes and needed a ton of them per night.. then yes, I sure as hell want the ability to bulk craft. Realism be damned if I'm going to have to sit there and wait press a button every 5 seconds for 10 minutes.

    I don't get the realism argument, anyway. Seriously, there is almost nothing realistic about any MMO crafting system in terms of the time it takes to make things. A blacksmith never walked over to his forge with everything he needed to make a sword and came back 10 seconds later with a fully functional sword.

    Most MMO systems tend to pay respect to the crafting "ages" in some way, assuming that's relevant to the skill - stone, bronze, iron, steel, etc - to mark progression through the ranks, and they include the very basics in terms of what was needed to create the items, but that's where the similarities end. You're never going to have a realistic crafting system.

    • 1295 posts
    May 14, 2022 11:31 AM PDT

    Orrion said:

    For me this question largely depends on how the crafting system is set up as a whole and how consumables work.

    If leveling up crafting requires me to make 100 Iron Spears and then 100 Gold Spears, etc, or if the game is like, say, WoW Burning Crusade where players were poppin' Haste Potions every couple minutes and needed a ton of them per night.. then yes, I sure as hell want the ability to bulk craft. Realism be damned if I'm going to have to sit there and wait press a button every 5 seconds for 10 minutes.

    I don't get the realism argument, anyway. Seriously, there is almost nothing realistic about any MMO crafting system in terms of the time it takes to make things. A blacksmith never walked over to his forge with everything he needed to make a sword and came back 10 seconds later with a fully functional sword.

    Most MMO systems tend to pay respect to the crafting "ages" in some way, assuming that's relevant to the skill - stone, bronze, iron, steel, etc - to mark progression through the ranks, and they include the very basics in terms of what was needed to create the items, but that's where the similarities end. You're never going to have a realistic crafting system.

    This is kind of what some of us are referring to not wanting.  It should take much longer than 10 seconds to craft a sword - I think it should take however long 5 hours game time is... and longer with lower skill.  (Going off of the time it takes the amature smiths on 'Forged in Fire' to craft a fully functional sword).  5 hrs game time could be 10 mins, but it would make crafting meaningful and that would be reflected in the market, compared to making 50 swords in 10mins and flooding the market with now trivial gear that you can't even sell... making crafting the sword in the first place nearly meaningless.  Mixing 2-3 ingredients into a giant couldron could very well take 10 seconds to create enough tincture to fill 100+ potions... but when we are referring to "bulk", we are referring to clicking one button and crafting 50 swords in 10 seconds, not necessarily pocketsize consumables.  But perhaps ingredients for consumables will be rare enough to make them more meaningful and highly valuable too *shrug*

    But to your point, I wouldn't want to click a button every 5 seconds either (just to stare at the back of my character's head while crafting).  If I have to stare at my motionless character, I want to be chatting or doing something else productive.

    edit: An altertenative to long crafting times would be having a crafting mini-game (similar to EQ2) to make crafting engaing.  Burning yourself, smashing a finger, or cutting a hand etc could injur you and reduce success rates (encouraging player participation).  https://youtu.be/qskcdV4euR0?t=151


    This post was edited by Darch at May 14, 2022 11:41 AM PDT
    • 569 posts
    May 15, 2022 9:24 AM PDT

    Is there any way to grade the crafters regardless of level?  Or provide a certificate upon crafters that grant further privilege?

    Can any system be used that could distinguish between a level 50 blacksmith that has made 200 high quality swords that have a combined usage of 10,000 hours vs a level 50 blacksmith that has made 800 low quality daggers with less than 1000 hours of use? 

    • 2001 posts
    May 15, 2022 10:08 AM PDT

    StoneFish said: Is there any way to grade the crafters regardless of level?  Or provide a certificate upon crafters that grant further privilege?

    Can any system be used that could distinguish between a level 50 blacksmith that has made 200 high quality swords that have a combined usage of 10,000 hours vs a level 50 blacksmith that has made 800 low quality daggers with less than 1000 hours of use? 

    I believe that tracking 'hours of use' of crafted items would be an enormous amount of record keeping and is extremely unlikely.

    The plans according to Nephele are for a crafted piece of gear (as opposed to consumables) to have a 'Maker's Mark' that shows the name of who crafted it. My guess is that the most useful sort of credential you'll have as a Crafter (or potential customer of a Crafter) will be a selection of really great items with your name on them. Along the same lines, showing off one's best gear to friends will give us all a chance to learn who makes really good stuff.

    In case I hadn't mentioned it, my stable of alts will include: a weaponsmith, a leather-armor (and bag) maker, a metal armorsmith, a bowyer and a jeweler. And of course a Chef, Brewer & Alchemist.

    Check out my selection! High quality, Low prices, Easy Credit Terms!! If I don't make it, you don't need it!!!

    :)


    This post was edited by Jothany at May 15, 2022 10:10 AM PDT
    • 86 posts
    May 17, 2022 8:52 AM PDT

    Jothany said:

    In case I hadn't mentioned it, my stable of alts will include: a weaponsmith, a leather-armor (and bag) maker, a metal armorsmith, a bowyer and a jeweler. And of course a Chef, Brewer & Alchemist.

    Check out my selection! High quality, Low prices, Easy Credit Terms!! If I don't make it, you don't need it!!!

    :)

    You know damn well you're also going to be making a carpenter for boat-making, don't you mislead us!

    • 2001 posts
    May 17, 2022 10:45 AM PDT

    TheWingless said:

    You know damn well you're also going to be making a carpenter for boat-making, don't you mislead us!

    ROFL!

    In my defense, the decision to make a Carpenter was posted 12 hours after this post. It took me a while to realize that what you say is true :)

     

    Also, for the record I will be happily crafting stuff for anyone - in my guild or not - in return for donations of Harvested materials. So practice those Harvesting skills, even if you don't plan to Craft.

    • 865 posts
    May 17, 2022 2:46 PM PDT

    Bulk crafting should only be for consumables because they are used in bulk. Bulk production makes crafting economically feasible for fewer people because it takes fewer people to supply existing demand.

    Also, there should be an artisinal option which takes much longer but opens up the use of more rare items. These items don't need to have better stats, but they will look much better.

    • 2001 posts
    May 26, 2022 11:48 PM PDT

    After reading so many replies on this thread, this struck me as the most foundational argument for not allowing bulk crafting.

    Barin999 said:

    By allowing bulk craft you undermine the value of starting players and their period of crafting lower combines where they get xp for and possibly get some coin or work orders for it from other players.

    Letting higher levels produce in bulk steals the market from lower levels.

    No to bulk production. Keep the playing field level.

     

    • 13 posts
    May 29, 2022 2:11 PM PDT

    There's almost never a market for lower levels in the first place. A combination of factors are responsible for that, of which bulk crafting really isn't one. One of those factors is that leveling is usually much faster than raising crafting to the equivalent level, so few people stop long enough to do that. Another is that the profits of doing so usually aren't comparable to simply leveling up, or to crafting higher tiers of items. This is compounded by people that are content to sell at the breakpoint or even take a loss on the lower level stuff.

    • 8 posts
    May 30, 2022 10:13 AM PDT

    Are individual processed raw materials going to have "Quality" associated with them IE a pristine X used forcrafting Y item provides a bigger stat bonus to the end result of Y? If this is a mechanic in play I think mass production must be a rewared for higher skilled crafters allowing them to process 10 X and be able to process them all to a "Pristine X". I also think this comes down to quality of facility and tool used to process the raw materials. Are you out in the field and you need to make arrows, maybe you can't make pristine arrorws because you don't have a proper shop to work in. Are you smelting raw ore to ingots, if you want to make 20 ingots then you need 20 molds to pour the smelted ore into ingots. I think mass production should be available to crafters just as a general time saver and reward for those that invest the time into crafting. This is especially important for crafting bigger things like say guild halls or ships. I also think that maybe some mass production can be tied to specializations. Maybe a bowyer is better at mass producing specific tipes of timber used for crafting bows where as maybe a furniture maker is better at processing other types. Or a weaponsmit is better at processing iron and a jewler is better at processing gold. This is an interesting topic, but I think it has to be built around crafting mechanics as a whole with some imersion and realisim into crafting, but a necessary function available to crafters. 


    This post was edited by atwa at May 30, 2022 10:13 AM PDT
    • 2001 posts
    May 30, 2022 6:29 PM PDT

    Orrion said: There's almost never a market for lower levels in the first place.

    I've lost track of how many times someone has suggested that since some mechanic or experience wasn't in (or didn't work) in other games, VR shouldn't try to have it in Pantheon. The dissatisfaction of so many forum members with those other games is the major reason VR is making Pantheon.

    And in fact, all of conditions that you suggest as leading to no market for low level crafters in other games are specific aspects of an MMO that VR has stated will be different in Pantheon.

    A combination of factors are responsible for that, of which bulk crafting really isn't one.

    I have no opinion on whether bulk crafting was or wasn't a reason for the state of other games. I'm only offering an opion on whether bulk crafting may help or hinder Pantheon.

     

     One of those factors is that leveling is usually much faster than raising crafting to the equivalent level

    While some % of players will always level quickly by choice, a key focus of Pantheon's development is to give players multiple reasons to NOT level quickly. There is much support for that goal expressed by Fantheons on these forums. So it's reasonable to expect slower leveling to be more common in Panth.

    Added to their focus of leveling up Crafting by having said advancement come from exploring & adventuring in the world rather than grinding many 'useless' items, the balance of what a crafter can make and how many people can use that item should by more in sync.

    Another is that the profits of doing so usually aren't comparable to simply leveling up, or to crafting higher tiers of items.

    This is about selling whatever a crafter can currenly make, so obviously 'crafting higher tier items' isn't an option for them. The point IS selling the lower tier items. And if the crafter isn't quickly leveling up his adventuring level, then the profits are much more significant.

    This is compounded by people that are content to sell at the breakpoint or even take a loss on the lower level stuff.

    Taking away the grind and resulting quantity of low lvl stuff to 'just get rid of' removes the impetus for that situation.

     


    This post was edited by Jothany at May 30, 2022 7:38 PM PDT
    • 1 posts
    June 3, 2022 8:30 AM PDT

    I seem to always compare crafting systems to SWG. Just my preference.